Defacement

brianthebard

I'm currently reading a book called Newspapers and Nationalism, the Irish Provincial Press, 1850-1892, by Legg (full title given cause its a very good book imo). I've come across at least two instances where someone has tippexed the 'London' out of a newspapers title, e.g. the Londonderry Guardian has become the _____derry Guardian. However this person did not even have the capability or stamina to be consistent in their attacks, so on one page where a list of papers appears, they only tippexed out London from one title, and left two or three others intact.

Now whatever about one's political leanings, surely it should be obvious that these titles describe a paper of its time and act as useful historical markers. The Londonderry Journal later became the Derry Journal, an example of a shift from fairly conservative roots to a strongly nationalist position in the late nineteenth/early twentieth century. If we begin to retitle things as we feel they ought to be named, then we are actually damaging historical evidence, as well as compromising our own message. The tippexer did not apparently even know the difference between nationalist and unionist derry papers, and censored the book indiscriminately and nonsensically.

Anyways basically the point of this thread is this-when is it ok or not ok to start to change texts to reflect one's own views or a more modern interpretation? When is it ok to take away historical monuments and when is it not? Is defacement always negative or are there other ways of viewing this which I have not considered?

Morlar

It's understandable for a fledgling society, closer in history to remove monuments left behind by former rulers.

Due to them being (or at least percieved as being) supremacist or imperialist or suppressive of local culture & history, so it is seen as a corrective step and not an attack on former rulers ie to fix an artificial imposition that stamped over the country it was placed in so the step of removing them could be seen as rewriting the original history if you like.

For more mature societies you'd expect them to be able to view them in their correct historical context and keep them for posterity & remembrance.

This is assuming that monuments are only ever removed for political reasons & not building progress etc.

Attempting to rewrite history itself is more worrying than the literal removal of monuments. An adult tippexing history books is too stupid for words!

R.Dub.Fusilier

brianthebard wrote: »

When is it ok to take away historical monuments and when is it not? Is defacement always negative or are there other ways of viewing this which I have not considered?

just my opinion on part of your question . some monuments in ireland after the british left shoud have and were removed and rightly so . but when i am looking through history books and see photos of statues and monuments i sometimes wish i could see them , you know the sort , generals on horses etc. our past cant be erased by kicking over the statues.

Lord ButterSlip

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

just my opinion on part of your question . some monuments in ireland after the british left shoud have and were removed and rightly so . but when i am looking through history books and see photos of statues and monuments i sometimes wish i could see them , you know the sort , generals on horses etc. our past cant be erased by kicking over the statues.

On that point Country homes could be added to that list: Rockingham Roscommon, Shanbally Tipp. and French Park Roscommon. All razed to the ground, and there is more.

CDfm

Great thread and I agree with the sentiments here

donaghs

Agree with the sentiments. Even when a majority of people deem a monument to be offensive, it can still be moved to a musuem, or some alternative use found for it. The destructive censoring impulse remindsme of some people's knee-jerk reactions on Boards to a new or different point of view.

Spiritoftheseventies

brianthebard wrote: »

I'm currently reading a book called Newspapers and Nationalism, the Irish Provincial Press, 1850-1892, by Legg (full title given cause its a very good book imo). I've come across at least two instances where someone has tippexed the 'London' out of a newspapers title, e.g. the Londonderry Guardian has become the _____derry Guardian. However this person did not even have the capability or stamina to be consistent in their attacks, so on one page where a list of papers appears, they only tippexed out London from one title, and left two or three others intact.

Now whatever about one's political leanings, surely it should be obvious that these titles describe a paper of its time and act as useful historical markers. The Londonderry Journal later became the Derry Journal, an example of a shift from fairly conservative roots to a strongly nationalist position in the late nineteenth/early twentieth century. If we begin to retitle things as we feel they ought to be named, then we are actually damaging historical evidence, as well as compromising our own message. The tippexer did not apparently even know the difference between nationalist and unionist derry papers, and censored the book indiscriminately and nonsensically.

Anyways basically the point of this thread is this-when is it ok or not ok to start to change texts to reflect one's own views or a more modern interpretation? When is it ok to take away historical monuments and when is it not? Is defacement always negative or are there other ways of viewing this which I have not considered?

Could be the reader who tippexed name out just had a problem with the name London Derry.

brianthebard

bayviewclose wrote: »

Could be the reader who tippexed name out just had a problem with the name London Derry.

Clearly they do, but they didn't even have the integrity to tippex out London every time it happened. The point is that it was a deliberate act attempting to deny a specific period of Irish history. Whether you call Derry Londonderry now or not is a personal matter, but papers with titles from the mid nineteenth century are not up for debate and their titles are as much a part of history as the paper itself.

Spiritoftheseventies

agreed but there is a history of this sort of "protest". We all remember the hassle over Sean Russells headless statue in fairview park not to mention Nelsons column.

R.Dub.Fusilier

bayviewclose wrote: »

... not to mention Nelsons column.

personally i think it was not a good idea to blow this up. the Irish government should have removed Nelson from the top and put someone important from Irish history on top and a big deal could have been made about the unveiling.

a couple of years a go i was working with a man in his 60s whos father was in the IRA in the 40s and 50s . anyway he told me that his father was part of an unit that was told to blow up the Wellington monument in the phoinex park. on the night they were due to blow it up there was too many people in the area , he said it was people walking and courting couples , and the job was called off . he also said that he was with his father when , using a hammer , broke the leg from a military statue in the park.

of course this is just hearsay and it may be just a yarn , but i have no reason to dis-believe him.

Spiritoftheseventies

Yes there was a story going round that the Dubliners had the head of nelson (from the statue) at one of their gigs. Heard that last year on some documentary.

CDfm

bayviewclose wrote: »

Yes there was a story going round that the Dubliners had the head of nelson (from the statue) at one of their gigs. Heard that last year on some documentary.

Ronnie Drew and Liam Clancy (of the Clancy Brothers) both were against singing republican songs because they were against civilian casualties and had issues with the violence issues.

I did read somewhere that Nelsons head was taken by a student and was at some theatre or other and even made and appearence somewhere in the UK.

I must look for a link.

Judgement Day

bayviewclose wrote: »

Yes there was a story going round that the Dubliners had the head of nelson (from the statue) at one of their gigs. Heard that last year on some documentary.

All the info you could want and a bit more here.

http://www.irelandinformationguide.com/Nelson's_Pillar