Rifle Range

greenpeter

Well folks,
Are there any ranges in leinster that you can pay and shoot?
Would love to get the .223 out to practice.

Sparks

Nope. By law, day memberships are now verboten.

greenpeter

Ah s**t:mad:. Why is that Sparks?

dCorbus

day memberships are now verboten

Does that now mean that one can now only shoot at the particular range one is a member of?

Hope not! Would love to visit and shoot at some more ranges around Ireland on my travels - And not happy if this is now so restricted!:eek:

Surely, if the shooter is legitimately licensed for the firearm they wish to use, then surely an Authorised Range may let them shoot there, if that's the particular ranges policy?

Or are Rathdrum, Fermoy, Lough Bo, Castlemaine, Hilltop, etc. all now strengverboten to me? Or how streng is streng?;)

Sparks

The ban only applies to the range or club on which your licence depends AFAIK dCorbus. Shooting at an event in another range isn't subject to the ban. Shooting for a personal training day in another range, I'm not sure about, though it'd be in keeping with the stated reasons for the ban for personal training days to also be exempt (but unless I've missed it or forgotten it, there's no specific exemption).

Sparks

greenpeter wrote: »

Ah s**t:mad:. Why is that Sparks?

The reason given was to prevent people joining a range or club, using that membership to get their licence and then vanishing for the next few years. So all temporary memberships were banned, and you have to join a club on an annual basis as a result.

dCorbus

thanks sparks

Shooting for a personal training day in another range, I'm not sure about, though it'd be in keeping with the stated reasons for the ban for personal training days to also be exempt

Can you post a link to this ban? Thanks. I'd be interested to read it and form my own not-so-legal opinion.:D

personal training day in another range

That's exactly what I'd be planning. Variety the spice of life and all that - Different conditions, winds, etc. - All add to the enjoyment and training.;)

The ban only applies to the range or club on which your licence depends

I'm not 100% sure what you mean here?
Yes, my license was issued to me with my "good reason" being my membership of an authorised range (for target shooting) - but I can't find anywhere that say's that's the only reason / location / activity for which I may use my firearms.

e.g. Whilst my "good reason" is for "target shooting on an authorised range", I can use my .22 (for example) for vermin control, if I so wish. Or can I?

Another example, and to reverse-engineer my argument, would be the case of someone licenced to shoot a .308 for the purpose (i.e. stated "good reason") of hunting deer (an example only - lads, don't kill me if I've used the wrong calibre in my example;)) - Does this mean then they cannot use the firearm in question for the purposes of target shooting?

You see the confusion here!

(Or have I got the totally wrong-end-of-the-stick as far as the firearms legislation is concerned - and thus, am making a total eejit of myself)

dCorbus

The reason given was to prevent people joining a range or club, using that membership to get their licence and then vanishing for the next few years. So all temporary memberships were banned, and you have to join a club on an annual basis as a result.

That's why ranges / clubs have to keep and produce attendance records now.
And are obliged to inform the gardai if someone ceases their range/club membership.
And are obliged to also keep a non-attendance record for production to the gardai.

It's not "temporary membership" that would be wanted by the shooter - because they already have "good reason" (membership of club / range and or hunting permissions etc.)

So no temporary membership required - just access to the range facilities for the day, weekend, morning, 10mins, etc.

Can't see how an already-licenced shooter would be banned (by law) from using a ranges facilities, if that range wished to allow the shooter to use (perhaps for a fee) their fine facilities. Or the point in it.

Sparks

dCorbus wrote: »

Can you post a link to this ban? Thanks. I'd be interested to read it and form my own not-so-legal opinion.:D

SI 308 2009 FIREARMS (AUTHORISATION OF RIFLE OR PISTOL CLUBS) REGULATIONS 2009
Section 4(4):

A club shall not run any day or temporary membership schemes.

If the club doesn't adhere to that, they can't get the licence for the club or the range; if they don't have that licence, you can't shoot there (it's a criminal offence to even sweep up on a range tidying day thanks to the way the law's written): Section 4A(18) of the Act:

(18) It is an offence—

(a) for a club or the owner or operator of a shooting range—

(i) to contravene subsection (1) of this section, or
(ii) without reasonable excuse, not to comply with any conditions attached to an authorisation under this section,

(b) for a person not to comply with subsection (12) of this section, or
(c) for a person, without reasonable excuse, to participate in the activities of such a club or shooting range for which an authorisation under this section is not in force.

I'm not 100% sure what you mean here?
Yes, my license was issued to me with my "good reason" being my membership of an authorised range (for target shooting) - but I can't find anywhere that say's that's the only reason / location / activity for which I may use my firearms.

It's not the only location; but you do have to remain a member of that club (and if that changes you have to notify the Gardai, as do the club). If, say, you were a member of RRPC and wanted to go train in DRC, then I think you're fine so long as either you're a guest of DRC (rather than a day member) or you're a member of DRC. I don't think you can just turn up, pay for a day's rent of the range and shoot away though, not with the law as it stands (though you wouldn't have been allowed do that without prior notice in any range in the country before the new law anyway, so I think it's bad law brought in to control a bogeyman )

e.g. Whilst my "good reason" is for "target shooting on an authorised range", I can use my .22 (for example) for vermin control, if I so wish. Or can I?

I don't think your licence would cover that. You wouldn't be on an authorised range (and might not even have written permission to shoot over the land).

Another example, and to reverse-engineer my argument, would be the case of someone licenced to shoot a .308 for the purpose (i.e. stated "good reason") of hunting deer (an example only - lads, don't kill me if I've used the wrong calibre in my example;)) - Does this mean then they cannot use the firearm in question for the purposes of target shooting?

Technically yes, but practically there's a double standard going on and they'd probably be fine.

Sparks

dCorbus wrote: »

That's why ranges / clubs have to keep and produce attendance records now.
And are obliged to inform the gardai if someone ceases their range/club membership.
And are obliged to also keep a non-attendance record for production to the gardai.

Yup.

It's not "temporary membership" that would be wanted by the shooter - because they already have "good reason" (membership of club / range and or hunting permissions etc.)
So no temporary membership required - just access to the range facilities for the day, weekend, morning, 10mins, etc.

The argument was that membership for a month could see you get a licence and then vanish; and so might membership for a week; so just ban all temporary membership.

Can't see how an already-licenced shooter would be banned (by law) from using a ranges facilities, if that range wished to allow the shooter to use (perhaps for a fee) their fine facilities. Or the point in it.

So long as you're not a member there and their insurance and licence permit it, I think you're fine.
But the club has to ensure that insurance and licence conditions permit that or everyone's up the creek.

Sparks

dCorbus wrote: »

(Or have I got the totally wrong-end-of-the-stick as far as the firearms legislation is concerned - and thus, am making a total eejit of myself)

Nope. The law's the ass, not you. It's badly drafted and chunks of it are just plain badly conceived. A lot of it is down to the FCP not being listened to more fully, but most of the mess belongs at the feet of the current Minister..

greenpeter

It seams very harsh on those who have a license and want to get a bit of practice in. But the law is the law i suppose.
Have to save now for new scope, membership of a club and my divorce:pac:

dCorbus

I've been reading the legislation and a few other bits of regulations etc......and I think sparks might be wrong on this one IMHO:eek::eek::eek::D

I'll put together a much more reasoned explanation for why I think this may be so, and post it shortly!

In the meantime, if any legal types out there have any definitive answer to either support or discount sparks on this one, please post it!:D

dCorbus

Thanks sparks

However, still confused!

Had a read through SI 308 and can only find mention of the following:

"A club shall not run any day or temporary membership schemes".

I know you've been involved in this entire area for far far far longer than me, but in relation to whether a) Authorised Ranges may allow the use of their facilities by fully firearm-certified non-members and b) Target Shooters may use their rifles at authorised ranges other than their “home-range”, I’d be interested in hearing your take on the following positions:

The first, and most important thing, to say is that the following only applies to authorised ranges which have been certified under the new legislation.
It does not apply to “casual” ranges or home-ranges (if such things might exist!?:D)

In relation to me using my firearms elsewhere, away from the authorised club(s) and range(s) of which I am a member, Section 5 of the Firearms Act 1925 as Amended by Section 35 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006 states that a Firearms Certificate may be revoked in the event that the Firearms Certificate holder "has not a good reason for requiring the firearm to which the certificate relates" OR "where the firearm certificate limits the purposes for which the firearm to which it relates may be used, is using the firearm for purposes not authorised by the certificate" OR "has not complied with a condition attached to the grant of the certificate".

Now, I'm not a lawyer, but....

My reading of this is that, as each of these reasons for revocation are listed individually, separately, and may be invoked independently of each other, the implication is that the "Good Reason" and "Purposes" are two different things.

Section 4 (2)e of the Act as amended states that it is a condition of the granting of a Firearms Cert for “where the firearm is a rifle or pistol to be used for target shooting, is a member of an authorised rifle or pistol club” – It does not state that it is a condition that the firearm may only be used at this particular authorised rifle club or range.

Furthermore, Section 2(4)d of F Act 1925 as amended allows for “the possession, use or carriage of a firearm or ammunition during a competition or target practice at a club, shooting range or any other place that stands authorised under this section or section 4A of this Act”. Accordingly, I respectfully submit that the use of a shooting range for target practice, outside of the auspices of a competition, is permissible.

Under Section 4(2) as amended states that the granting of a firearms certificate is subject to a number of conditions having been met and complied with to the satisfaction of the FO, Super, and /or CS (as the case may be). I cannot find anywhere which states that the authorised club mentioned at Item (e) is the only place the licenced firearm may be used.

In fact, the Garda Commissioners Guidelines state that for Target Shooting in particular “membership of a particular club will generally be the core of the applicant’s ‘good reason’ and the focus of much of their shooting activity” – thus the implication, even in the Garda Commissioner's Guidelines is that target shooters will occasionally focus their shooting activity elsewhere other than at the club of which they are a member.

Section 5(3)4c of SI 308 of 2009 states that an authorised club / range must register “the name, address, date of birth and firearm certificate number of each person using a firearm at an event organised by the club” in addition to the club/ranges membership register. This permits authorised clubs / ranges to organise events for registered firearms licensees who are not members. Thus the implication is again that non-members may use range facilities during organised events.

Section 4A(14) of the Act as Amended states that the following are the minimum criteria to be used in assessing the suitability of a shooting range for authorisation: 1. Security of the range, 2. Membership, 3. Management, 4. Design, construction and maintenance, 5. Types of firearms and ammunition to be used, 6. Level of competence of persons using the range.

I would suggest that if the each of these items are dealt with and addressed by the authorised range in their own policy / management documents and they themselves are satisfied that in particular Items 1, 5, and 6 are complied with, then there should be no reason a firearms-certificate-holding non-member may not use the ranges facilities, if so permitted by the range themselves.

And so rests the case for the defence, your honour!:D

To answer the OP greenpeter's original question, maybe we should get back on topic;) and perhaps anyone who actually knows of ranges which will legitimately allow fully-licenced shooters to avail of their facilities might let us know!:D

P.S. This is not legal advice - and should be taken in the spirit in which it is given. No reliance on this information may be implied or inferred by anyone! And I will be delighted to stand corrected on any item above!

clivej

dCorbus wrote: »

Thanks sparks

However, still confused!

Had a read through SI 308 and can only find mention of the following:

"A club shall not run any day or temporary membership schemes".

So if a club does not run any day or temporary membership scheme BUT allows the use of thier range without a day or temporary membership scheme would you therefore be legally allowed use that range - as a visitor????

dCorbus

thanks clivej

So if a club does not run any day or temporary membership scheme BUT allows the use of thier range without a day or temporary membership scheme would you therefore be legally allowed use that range - as a visitor????

yep, that's my own reading of the reg's!

I think the real issue previously was some ranges apparently providing temporary membership (if this did in fact occur);). However, if you already have a firearms cert and are already a member elsewhere, I cannot find anything that would not allow you to visit and use an authorised range for "target practice" either as a guest or a visitor.

That said, it would obviously depend on the policy of the individual range management / operator. They would have ensure that all the relevant competence, safety, certificates, etc. were all in order.

As I said, most definitely not in any way expert in this area - so welcome any corrections!:o

rrpc

If you have a licence and the range allows it, you can attend as a visitor and shoot. There's nothing in the law that prevents this and it was not the intention to do so.

Temporary memberships are a different matter and are not allowed.

It's precisely the same thing as attending a competition at another range, the usual issues of recording your details in the visitors book must be adhered to and obviously as one of the things recorded is your certificate number then it's obvious that you have a licence and are permitted to shoot on the range.

The issue as to whether your licence issued for hunting can be used for target shooting or vice versa is a different matter. It must be borne in mind that the purpose you state on your application for requiring a firearm is to provide 'good reason' for having it, not a restriction on its use (within the law of course). If however your Superintendent (or Chief Superintendent) places extra conditions on your licence that restrict its use, then you may have a problem.