Length of a physics degree?

nitrogen

I'm in my late twenties, have a BS in Computer Science, but working in an area that I have zero interest building a career in. Completing a physics degree has become one of my major goals in life.

I am based in London, so that is where I probably would be doing it. My question is regarding three-year degrees compared with four-year degrees. I'm already studying different courses informally, mainly through MIT OpenCourseWare, mostly to feed my curiosity of the natural world.

So how is three years enough to study such a vast scientific field? And I'm also well aware that four is not sufficient, that's what graduate school is for. But I also wouldn't aim to stop at a degree, and plan to struggle, put in the thousands of hours, while working, and sacrifice a lot of the next decade to also go for a PHD. Should I only be looking at four year undergraduate courses?

I appreciate hearing anyone's experience.

Thanks

Professor_Fink

If you want to do a PhD at a good school, do the 4 year degree. The three year degrees are far less useful in preparing you for a research career, and leave vast swathes of physics untouched. Even if it does cover the particular aspect of physics you are interested in, the lack of background in other areas will really hurt you down the road.

Now for the torrent of descent from people who did 3 year degrees...

nitrogen

Thanks, Professor_Fink.

SOL

Given that you all ready have a degree in CS you may find that you can be exempt from some of the first year and possibly second year courses, so this could lighten the load and or speed things up for you. But yes, do a 4 year degree...

Podge_irl

Professor_Fink wrote: »

If you want to do a PhD at a good school, do the 4 year degree. The three year degrees are far less useful in preparing you for a research career, and leave vast swathes of physics untouched. Even if it does cover the particular aspect of physics you are interested in, the lack of background in other areas will really hurt you down the road.

I did a 4 year undergrad and a year long masters and I still find a shocking amount of stuff that I really don't know enough about (though this is in no small part due to my primary degree not being ideally set up). Any syllabus I've seen for a three year course just seems to be lacking in too many areas.

Morbert

Yup, did a total of 5 years of physics so far (4 undergrad + 1 MSc) and still bumbling around in the dark on a lot of physics issues.

Tears in Rain

Hi OP,

For what it's worth, I'm in a similar situation to you, I have a qualification in Computers, but it's not really the area I'm looking to spend my life in, so I'm following my life long dream of becoming a Physicist, and so I too decided to go for a four year degree in Physics after weighing up all my options.

So while I'm not qualified to give you an answer from the perspective of a physicist like these fine gentlemen, I can say that in a similar position to yours a four year degree is the conclusion I came to!

nitrogen

Hi Tears in Rain,

Thanks for sharing your story. Best of luck with it. Oh how I relate to you, I can't stand the industry I'm in and would rather be on a conveyer belt packing boxes while listening to the Feynman lectures.

What course have you decided to go with?

Tears in Rain

Oh yeah, I know the feeling, at least with a menial job you can tune out of what you're doing and think about something else

I'm applying for Theoretical Physics in Trinity College, although I have another few I'm considering if I don't get in. I haven't really considered leaving Ireland completely (I'm still in my early-mid 20s and that would be a fairly big step for me, and I don't really have the financial security). But it might be hard to get the course I want so looking outside Ireland might be a possibility. I'm just under the cut-off age by a few weeks for being a mature student, so that means it's all down to CAO points, but luckily I have just enough, if points don't shift radically. Right now, I'm spending pretty much every minute of my spare time studying Physics and Maths to prepare myself, so that means if I don't get into my chosen course, I'll be ready for an interview if I apply as a mature student

Are there any specific courses you're looking at at the moment?

nitrogen

The fact that I'm on a computer with the net, does mean at times I can temporarily escape this dismal uninteresting world. Another reason for my lack of enthusiasm, is the industry I'm in (Cough, cough... advertising/marketing), and the type of people who dominate this world - a lot of pompous fools, Richard Feynman would call them. Oh how I dream to be surrounded by thinking colleagues who are knowledgeable and passionate about science and who can hold stimulating conversations. Being in technology, yes, I am lucky enough to occasionally work with geeks, but not here.

I'm going a little off topic here. While I would prefer to return to Ireland to complete a physics degree, for various reasons it's best to stay here for the moment, but that could change. I've been looking at Kings College and Imperial College London, both Physics and Theoretical Physics MSci degrees (Which is a four year undergraduate degree in the UK).

May I ask what is your source for currently studying physics, and what areas are you studying? Also what area of Maths are you studying?

As I mentioned above, Walter Lewin of MIT is currently my lecturer (Courses 801,802 & 803), along with Professor Feynman, but I'm also going to invest in a textbook. Maybe Physics for Scientists and Engineers - do you have any input? I've looked at some of the ones in the sticky on books but not sure if it's worth investing now, or buying one that a certain course uses...

Thanks

Tears in Rain

nitrogen wrote: »

The fact that I'm on a computer with the net, does mean at times I can temporarily escape this dismal uninteresting world. Another reason for my lack of enthusiasm, is the industry I'm in (Cough, cough... advertising/marketing), and the type of people who dominate this world - a lot of pompous fools, Richard Feynman would call them. Oh how I dream to be surrounded by thinking colleagues who are knowledgeable and passionate about science and who can hold stimulating conversations. Being in technology, yes, I am lucky enough to occasionally work with geeks, but not here.

I'm going a little off topic here. While I would prefer to return to Ireland to complete a physics degree, for various reasons it's best to stay here for the moment, but that could change. I've been looking at Kings College and Imperial College London, both Physics and Theoretical Physics MSci degrees (Which is a four year undergraduate degree in the UK).

May I ask what is your source for currently studying physics, and what areas are you studying? Also what area of Maths are you studying?

As I mentioned above, Walter Lewin of MIT is currently my lecturer (Courses 801,802 & 803), along with Professor Feynman, but I'm also going to invest in a textbook. Maybe Physics for Scientists and Engineers - do you have any input? I've looked at some of the ones in the sticky on books but not sure if it's worth investing now, or buying one that a certain course uses...

Thanks

Right now, I'm following some of the Recommended Reading from the TP course in Trinity, so I'm reading Special Relativity by French and Calculus by Spivak at the moment, both of which seem to be highly recommended.

I personally can't really recommend either in that they're both my only exposure to subject (well, in the case of Calculus my only exposure to the subject treated in the rigorous and formal manner as it is), but I'm really enjoying both, although Special Relativity is starting to get a bit heavy going.

Once I'm done these I'm planning on looking at the Mechanics and Linear Algebra books recommended for 1st year.

All these are text booky, so on weekends and when I'm commuting I stick to the Popular Science (not necessarily Physics) stuff, basically anything by Feynman I'll devour (I haven't picked up his Lectures yet, but that's probably to meaty for Dublin Bus anyway), and right now I'm reading Richard Dawkins as a brief diversion into Biology.

You'll notice most of the textbooks I'm looking at are fairly specific rather than general...most of the general overviews of Physics at college level I've looked at seem to be very (unnecessarily) bloated, so I'm hoping that Feynman's Lectures will fill that void when I get it in the next few months.

sponsoredwalk

nitrogen wrote: »

Hi Tears in Rain,

Thanks for sharing your story. Best of luck with it. Oh how I relate to you, I can't stand the industry I'm in and would rather be on a conveyer belt packing boxes while listening to the Feynman lectures.

What course have you decided to go with?

Oh man, that was me a year ago!

I got so fed up with listening to pop physics books & Feynman lectures where you get lost halfway into the "mental math" that I had to quit and go on the dole to study physics properly. Hoping to go to Uni next year and do the course.

Btw, Physics for Scientists & Engineers is an okay book from what I've seen. I have an *evaluation copy* of it & wasn't that impressed, especially since I had the standard Halliday & Resnick junk to compare it too.

I sincerely recommend "University Physics with Modern Physics" as being the clearest with the best worked examples. I wasted over a hundred euro on mediocre books before I found that gem of a book, still cracking away at it & happy.

That said, I advise amazon reviews & old physicsforums.com threads as reading material to find out which book would suit you best.

Also, Walter Lewin is my teacher too , however, I really advise you to go to the online yale physics lectures thaught by Prof. Shankar. For intro material Shankar's course gives you SOO much and requires you to do soo little. (Also, he wrote an amazing QM book - or so reviewers say - & judging from the standard of the yale course I can see why).

Check it out if you have time.

Further Edit: Spivak is insane sometimes... I'm going nuts over this book

Man, I really don't recommend getting Feynman, It was an idea I had but after personal time loss & reading on blogs of similar actions by people I can only advise you not to waste your time.

My plan is to get through University Physics, then the Kleppner mechanics book on the Trinity site & a similar Berkeley book, then move on to the Lagrangian stuff. Also, I'm doing Spivak & Apostol for calculus along with a few Linear Algebra books while covering some Set Theory & weak Modern Algebra while doing an Engineering book for some exposure to stuff like Fourier etc...
I have gone through a lot of hell finally coming to these decisions and if you're ever stuck just drop me a line & I'm sure I could help you out a little with suggestions and vice versa.

It's really cool to see other people in Ireland going through a similar thing lol

kevcos

nitrogen wrote: »

The fact that I'm on a computer with the net, does mean at times I can temporarily escape this dismal uninteresting world. Another reason for my lack of enthusiasm, is the industry I'm in (Cough, cough... advertising/marketing), and the type of people who dominate this world - a lot of pompous fools, Richard Feynman would call them. Oh how I dream to be surrounded by thinking colleagues who are knowledgeable and passionate about science and who can hold stimulating conversations. Being in technology, yes, I am lucky enough to occasionally work with geeks, but not here.

I'm going a little off topic here. While I would prefer to return to Ireland to complete a physics degree, for various reasons it's best to stay here for the moment, but that could change. I've been looking at Kings College and Imperial College London, both Physics and Theoretical Physics MSci degrees (Which is a four year undergraduate degree in the UK).

May I ask what is your source for currently studying physics, and what areas are you studying? Also what area of Maths are you studying?

As I mentioned above, Walter Lewin of MIT is currently my lecturer (Courses 801,802 & 803), along with Professor Feynman, but I'm also going to invest in a textbook. Maybe Physics for Scientists and Engineers - do you have any input? I've looked at some of the ones in the sticky on books but not sure if it's worth investing now, or buying one that a certain course uses...

Thanks

Tears in Rain wrote: »

Right now, I'm following some of the Recommended Reading from the TP course in Trinity, so I'm reading Special Relativity by French and Calculus by Spivak at the moment, both of which seem to be highly recommended.

I personally can't really recommend either in that they're both my only exposure to subject (well, in the case of Calculus my only exposure to the subject treated in the rigorous and formal manner as it is), but I'm really enjoying both, although Special Relativity is starting to get a bit heavy going.

Once I'm done these I'm planning on looking at the Mechanics and Linear Algebra books recommended for 1st year.

All these are text booky, so on weekends and when I'm commuting I stick to the Popular Science (not necessarily Physics) stuff, basically anything by Feynman I'll devour (I haven't picked up his Lectures yet, but that's probably to meaty for Dublin Bus anyway), and right now I'm reading Richard Dawkins as a brief diversion into Biology.

You'll notice most of the textbooks I'm looking at are fairly specific rather than general...most of the general overviews of Physics at college level I've looked at seem to be very (unnecessarily) bloated, so I'm hoping that Feynman's Lectures will fill that void when I get it in the next few months.

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

Oh man, that was me a year ago!

I got so fed up with listening to pop physics books & Feynman lectures where you get lost halfway into the "mental math" that I had to quit and go on the dole to study physics properly. Hoping to go to Uni next year and do the course.

Btw, Physics for Scientists & Engineers is an okay book from what I've seen. I have an *evaluation copy* of it & wasn't that impressed, especially since I had the standard Halliday & Resnick junk to compare it too.

I sincerely recommend "University Physics with Modern Physics" as being the clearest with the best worked examples. I wasted over a hundred euro on mediocre books before I found that gem of a book, still cracking away at it & happy.

That said, I advise amazon reviews & old physicsforums.com threads as reading material to find out which book would suit you best.

Also, Walter Lewin is my teacher too , however, I really advise you to go to the online yale physics lectures thaught by Prof. Shankar. For intro material Shankar's course gives you SOO much and requires you to do soo little. (Also, he wrote an amazing QM book - or so reviewers say - & judging from the standard of the yale course I can see why).

Check it out if you have time.

Further Edit: Spivak is insane sometimes... I'm going nuts over this book

Man, I really don't recommend getting Feynman, It was an idea I had but after personal time loss & reading on blogs of similar actions by people I can only advise you not to waste your time.

My plan is to get through University Physics, then the Kleppner mechanics book on the Trinity site & a similar Berkeley book, then move on to the Lagrangian stuff. Also, I'm doing Spivak & Apostol for calculus along with a few Linear Algebra books while covering some Set Theory & weak Modern Algebra while doing an Engineering book for some exposure to stuff like Fourier etc...
I have gone through a lot of hell finally coming to these decisions and if you're ever stuck just drop me a line & I'm sure I could help you out a little with suggestions and vice versa.

It's really cool to see other people in Ireland going through a similar thing lol

I'am currently doing a one year long foundation diploma course in Science, Technology and Engineering at NUI Galway. Successful completion of this diploma, will guarantee a place in the Universities undenominated Science or Engineering programmes or similar programmes at GMIT. This foundation course is only open to mature students.

Basically we study Maths every Tuesday 7pm to 10pm and have modules in Biology, Physic's and Chemistry every Thursday 7pm to 9pm. We are/will be taking the same amount of assessments, assignment and exam's as most undergrad's. If we wish to gain a place on one of the denominated programmes we need to show greater potential in the associated subject relating to our desired area of study.

The science aspect of the course is pretty straight forward, we are not going in to the depth of the subjects like you guy's are, we are only covering the basic's.

The maths element is a lot more challeging, and we cover quite a large amount of study. And with also working a day job during the week, I 'am kept busy keeping up with things. Nonetheless I'am getting good grades thus far, and I'am really enjoying the opportunity to study and hope that this time next year I'll be a full time student of Science. I'am still unsure of which area of Science I wish to follow, and as such will probably put down a place on the undenominated Science programme as my first CAO choice.

Anyway I'd just wanted to say its great to hear others becoming, although I hate the word!, 'Mature' students.

None of my mates are doing the whole 'going to college' thing, and hearing the stories, and reasons of why others are passionate about starting down the road of studying makes me feel I'am not mental in taking the plunge in to student life:)

wyrn

Professor_Fink wrote: »

Now for the torrent of descent from people who did 3 year degrees...

Ha I did mine in 5!
Ok so it was my fault but it all worked out well in the end.

nitrogen

It's been a while since I logged into boards, because of the whole password saga.

sponsoredwalk, Thank you for your reply. I'm actually starting to feel the same way towards listening to the Feynman lectures: it's kind of pointless without being able to see what he writes on the blackboard, and not doing the mathematics. When I'm not lost, it's great, but a stronger foundation is nearly needed to get the most from the man.

Regarding returning to university, if I had the funds, there would be no hesitation. Reading this professor's words, along with the current economy has made me reevaluate things. He doesn't put me off, but maybe a career in pure physics is a bit of a fantasy for someone who didn't get their undergraduate in their early twenties... Thoughts everyone?

I still have yet to make a purchase on a physics textbook. I'll check out "University Physics with Modern Physics", as understanding and gaining knowledge of the physical world is my main goal. Ideally I'd love to be getting a qualification in the field and maybe even employment in the industry down the road.

Prof. Shankar's lectures are downloading as I type. Thank you. Does he just have the one course, Fundamentals of Physics?

I really appreciate you giving me a lengthy reply, sponsoredwalk. I've also started digging out my leaving certificate Maths notes, along with pursuing Calculus and Linear Algebra MIT lectures. We all return to the purest of sciences, Mathematics, to get a deeper understanding of science.

kevcos, instead of mature student, how about simply student of life? Is that too corny?

I agree. It's great to learn of other's sentiments towards self-learning and wanting to explore physics. If only there were more hours in the day, I just want to spend my days absorbing knowledge.

ronaldoshaky

Hi Nitrogen

I agree with Prof Fink, about a four year degree being better. But that's ok if you can afford to go back to full time education.

Unfortunately I couldnt, but the OU does have an IoP accredited Physics degree. While there are only four or five residential schools for experimental work, you can get a lot of exposure to other courses while completing a physics degree. There is great flexibility to include other subjects like maths and engineering courses to get an all round education.

Didnt you say you were based in London, aren't there universities that offer Physics degrees part time?

Oh re the age thing, I am in my late 20's, and I estimate that I could be well into my mid to late 30's before I would finish a PhD. But then, I am in no rush!