Human imperfection denting faith, very hungover, bear with me

eyes downcast

[font=Times New Roman, serif]Just in the door, walked a few miles home, as such I'm slightly under the weather, think I'm still a tad tipsy from a stupid amount of tequila, but had something on my mind that was difficult to ignore. [/font] [font=Times New Roman, serif]The thing which got me thinking. I'm not a particularly good catholic, I do awful things to other people as we all do, I ambushed an elderly man with a snowball outside the goat on new years- his agility shocked me as he dived behind the stone elephant fountain, and by the time I mouthed 'What the fu-' he had nailed me in the jaw with a snowball. I felt as if one of us was going to die during the snowball fight, so deep-down, I think I may have wanted to kill this man. I chased a fat kid for a mile for egging my house on Halloween, his more nimble friends had outpaced and abandoned him, but I jogged behind him for a few hundred yards, just to prolong the terror. I once stuck a toothbrush in someone. In. It was awful. [/font] [font=Times New Roman, serif]Basically I sin on innumerable occasions, we all do, but like... I went to mass on Christmas day... Admittedly it was an unpleasant experience- had to step outside and get sick in the parking lot as I was terminally hungover and woke up on a golf-course, but I went nonetheless, and I do believe in 'something.' [/font] [font=Times New Roman, serif]


Atheism and agnosticism, to me in my limited understanding of exact definitions, are inexorably linked to theism in the way they both need the conscious independent thought of an individual to believe something. Whether it's the absence of something, the presence of something, the indifference to something, the uncertainty over something- that's very vague and nondescript but it's so early... and I'm so tired, so bear with me.


[/font] [font=Times New Roman, serif]We all have our own beliefs, whether we adopted what was instilled in us in our upbringing from external influences, or if we unearthed something ourself in our life experiences, and that's actually very cool, as we live lives where we can choose what to think, and we're not fed ideas and ideologies without a voice to question them. For the most part.[/font] [font=Times New Roman, serif]

Just wondering, is anti-theism not the binary opposite of like, people pushing theism onto you? Talking about the negative aspects of social conditioning and societally imposed norms, and indoctrination and such, but does anti-theism not violate the sanctity of an individuals entitlement to a belief? Some theists might find an active opposition to theism offensive, as an atheist may find the imposition of theism offensive. Not necessarily imposition, but you know what I mean.[/font] [font=Times New Roman, serif]

I mean, we're in this age, we live in this country which was disgraced by the abominable and vile acts of a number of individuals within a collective, and this dented the faith of many. Yet I find myself thinking that, well, I don't believe in, or worship, priests, so why would my faith, in whatever it may be, be dented and diminished by the imperfections of humanity? I believe what I believe for whatever reason, as do you... and you.... so why would I change that because of the actions of some lascivious old man, who happened to be a priest, or some other frightened dude who tried to hide it from public light?
I believe in god, not a good priest, not a bad priest.[/font] [font=Times New Roman, serif]

It's difficult to express in so few words, and unfortunately it's not a black and white matter of 'why can't we all just believe what we want?' There are limits- I wouldn't like to see some dude sacrificing my neighbours cat to the sun god... but I'd respect his belief in that sun god...[/font]

[font=Times New Roman, serif]I feel pretty sober now, I'm done now. Emm, first ever post so moderators feel free to move, lock or delete accordingly if it, like, violates something. **** my head hurts[/font]

doctoremma

eyes downcast wrote: »

Atheism and agnosticism, to me in my limited understanding of exact definitions, are inexorably linked to theism

In that they wouldn't exist as defined states without theism.

eyes downcast wrote: »

they both need the conscious independent thought of an individual to believe something.

How do you believe in non-belief?

eyes downcast wrote: »

does anti-theism not violate the sanctity of an individuals entitlement to a belief?

Sure, if you enforce it. Although I doubt you could actually stop someone believing, all you could do would be to prevent them from displaying their belief. But I'm not sure that's what a political "anti-theist" movement would be about. In my case, it's more about returning the world the zero, where no ideology has a preference in law, education etc. Atheism is not a positive ideology, it's a lack of one.

eyes downcast wrote: »

There are limits- I wouldn't like to see some dude sacrificing my neighbours cat to the sun god... but I'd respect his belief in that sun god...

Why? Why would you respect a belief that demanded people sacrifice cats? Do you not have a problem with killing animals?

PDN

Moved from Christianity.

Since the poster wants to discuss anti-theism it will probably fly better with the Charter over here.

hiorta

Eyes Downcast, you could be experiencing your inborn spirituality surfacing a little more and your sense of the artificiality of religion diminishing.

All the words and 'isms' are simply a verbal shorthand for the ideas and thoughts that defy expression, at times and take a while to unravel and see clearly. Difficult.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Dades

eyes downcast wrote: »

Just wondering, is anti-theism not the binary opposite of like, people pushing theism onto you?

Just to clarify - you are speaking of anti-theism, which is of course different to simple atheism, right? Lack of belief doesn't necessarily equate to anti-theism.

In practice, anti-theism is not pushing your beliefs on somebody else - it's about not wanting someone else's beliefs pushed on you. If religion was practiced on a wholly personal level, you would not see anti-theism. But it's not - it infiltrates our constitution and everyday life. If religion stuck to the "why can't we all believe what we want" mantra, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. In short, anti-theism is a reaction.

The most obvious example being that I have to baptise my kids to guarantee a choice of schools. I have therefore no choice but to be anti religious with regard to schooling.

robindch

eyes downcast wrote: »

I once stuck a toothbrush in someone.

While my eyes are watering at the thought of it, I don't recall any biblical rules against abuse of a toothbrush. I hope it was a manual, btw, and not electric.

eyes downcast wrote: »

but I'd respect his belief in that sun god

It's a much wiser idea to respect his right to hold a belief. But a lot of religious people have a hard time distinguishing that from respect for the belief itself, and I suspect some of that is deliberate, since it's pretty beneficial to the holder to do so.

eyes downcast wrote: »

I feel pretty sober now

Well, do drop by later after a few Solpadeine

Dave!

Is this worth reading? It's pretty long...

PDN

robindch wrote: »

While my eyes are watering at the thought of it, I don't recall any biblical rules against abuse of a toothbrush.

That would all depend where he stuck it, and the gender of the stickee.

If he stuck it in someone's eye, then he should have a toothbrush stuck in his own eye.

If he stuck it in someone's cheek, then they have to turn the other cheek so he can do it again.

If he stuck it in a slave and they lived a few days before dying, then that's OK because they were his property anyway.

If he stuck in another guy's ass then that is an abomination and he deserves to be stoned to death.

liamw

PDN wrote: »

That would all depend where he stuck it, and the gender of the stickee.

If he stuck it in someone's eye, then he should have a toothbrush stuck in his own eye.

If he stuck it in someone's cheek, then they have to turn the other cheek so he can do it again.

If he stuck it in a slave and they lived a few days before dying, then that's OK because they were his property anyway.

If he stuck in another guy's ass then that is an abomination and he deserves to be stoned to death.

Good to see you're finally making fun of Christianity.

PDN

liamw wrote: »

Good to see you're finally making fun of Christianity.

I was joking about Christianity when you were going to mass in short trousers with your mammy.

liamw

PDN wrote: »

I was joking about Christianity when you were going to mass in short trousers with your mammy.

I'm so pissed off at her for indoctrinating me into society like that... yep, I hated those trouser shorts

robindch

PDN wrote: »

I was joking about Christianity when you were going to mass in short trousers with your mammy.

Odd then that you feign such offense when others find it amusing

1sittingduck

eyes downcast wrote: »

[font=Times New Roman, serif]The thing which got me thinking. I'm not a particularly good catholic, I do awful things to other people as we all do, I ambushed an elderly man with a snowball outside the goat on new years- his agility shocked me as he dived behind the stone elephant fountain, and by the time I mouthed 'What the fu-' he had nailed me in the jaw with a snowball. I felt as if one of us was going to die during the snowball fight, so deep-down, I think I may have wanted to kill this man. I chased a fat kid for a mile for egging my house on Halloween, his more nimble friends had outpaced and abandoned him, but I jogged behind him for a few hundred yards, just to prolong the terror. I once stuck a toothbrush in someone. In. It was awful. [/font] [font=Times New Roman, serif]Basically I sin on innumerable occasions, we all do, but like... I went to mass on Christmas day... Admittedly it was an unpleasant experience- had to step outside and get sick in the parking lot as I was terminally hungover and woke up on a golf-course, but I went nonetheless, and I do believe in 'something.' [/font]

You know you can always go to Confession and then receive Communion validly - as long as you're sorry for all the bad you've done. It doesn't matter if you're sorry out of fear of punishment after death for sins that are still "on" your soul ("attitrition"), or if you're sorry for the purest reason (out of pure love for God...or "perfect contrition"). Just as long as you're sorry and promise to try (with God's help) not to do wrong again and to stay away from temptation. After you've received absolution through the priest (and said whatever prayers you're asked to say to show you're sorry), you're free!

eyes downcast wrote: »

[font=Times New Roman, serif]We all have our own beliefs, whether we adopted what was instilled in us in our upbringing from external influences, or if we unearthed something ourself in our life experiences, and that's actually very cool, as we live lives where we can choose what to think, and we're not fed ideas and ideologies without a voice to question them. For the most part.

I mean, we're in this age, we live in this country which was disgraced by the abominable and vile acts of a number of individuals within a collective, and this dented the faith of many. Yet I find myself thinking that, well, I don't believe in, or worship, priests, so why would my faith, in whatever it may be, be dented and diminished by the imperfections of humanity? I believe what I believe for whatever reason, as do you... and you.... so why would I change that because of the actions of some lascivious old man, who happened to be a priest, or some other frightened dude who tried to hide it from public light?
I believe in god, not a good priest, not a bad priest.[/font]

That's a very fair perspective and I admire your conviction. And yes, your faith can be maintained. The actions of certain priests - as utterly vile and inexusable as those acts deserve to be described - and the cover-ups made by some bishops - whether they were simply unexperienced and scared or something else - can't take away from what Scripture teaches, from the Sacraments (even Holy Communion or Confession), or from all the good things that the Church has received from/through Christ.

seamus

Others have pretty much already said exactly what I'm going to say, but any road...

eyes downcast wrote: »

Atheism and agnosticism, to me in my limited understanding of exact definitions, are inexorably linked to theism in the way they both need the conscious independent thought of an individual to believe something.

Well not necessarily. Atheism doesn't need theism to exist. Atheism is simply having no belief in a deity. It doesn't necessarily confer opposition to such a viewpoint on the atheist, it's simply their state of mind and it is the default state of mind for human beings - a newborn baby has no theistic belief and is therefore atheist.

Although the connotations of the word atheism is that there is an active denial or disbelief in God(s), I prefer to use it in the same context that "asexual" is used in animals. An asexual animal is not one who refuses to have sex or otherwise denies sex. An asexual animal is simply one who does not engage in or require sexual reproduction. An atheist therefore is anyone who does not engage in or require theism, including young children.

Just wondering, is anti-theism not the binary opposite of like, people pushing theism onto you?

Anti-theism is not the opposite of people pushing theism on you, rather it is an active opposition to the theist viewpoint. As I illustrate above, this does not make atheists anti-theist, since many atheists are apathetic to the theist viewpoint (and some are unaware of it). To give a simple example, an anti-theist may be someone who is unwilling to say an oath because it contains the word "God". A lot of atheists would have no problem with this, because the word is meaningless for them.

does anti-theism not violate the sanctity of an individuals entitlement to a belief? Some theists might find an active opposition to theism offensive, as an atheist may find the imposition of theism offensive. Not necessarily imposition, but you know what I mean.

As others say, you are entitled to hold a belief, but that doesn't automatically mean that your belief must be protected from criticism. At an individual level, nobody should ever have to face persecution for their beliefs, but on a general level anyone else is entitled to criticise that belief as long as they're not referencing any individual directly.

That is, screaming at some random person on the street about their belief is wrong. Writing a book about it is fine.

Nobody should have to defend their personal belief unless the practise of that belief negatively affects anyone or anything else. So if I'm a NASA scientist who believes in the heliocentric theory, then clearly my beliefs are going to affect my ability to do my job, and I would be required to defend those beliefs or lose my job.

However, if I'm a postman with the same belief, then my beliefs have no bearing on anyone else and I have no need to defend them.

If someone releases a book attacking the heliocentric theory, I can get offended all I like, but I have no right to demand that nobody offends me.

IMO anyway, anyone who gets offended by an attack on their belief is someone who doubts the correctness or absoluteness of that belief. Otherwise you would have no remit to get offended because you'd know you were right.

Yet I find myself thinking that, well, I don't believe in, or worship, priests,

You might want to rethink that. Priests exist alright.
Though to be fair to the catholics, I don't think they worship their priests.

Calibos

Maybe I am overreacting to the bit of a twisted streak in you that some of your actions seem to show. Maybe you made them up for entertainment value in your post. Even if you really did do these things of course you are no Charles Manson or even an average skanger scumbag but for someone like me who would never dream of stabbing someone with a toothbrush for a laugh or think it would be a bit of a laugh to pelt an elderly man with snowballs, well it seems to me that if you can do these things while believing in Sin and God, you might be one of the people that I am glad has a belief in God that prevents you doing any worse. Was it the fear of a she-bear savaging you and your mates that prevented you from doing any worse to the elderly man like calling him a baldy?

I for one welcome your religious overlord, the fear of whom prevents at least a percentage of the population from being worse scumbags than they currently are.

eyes downcast

[font=Times New Roman, serif]I no longer know what forum I'm actually posting in, oh it says it there. I'm quite new at this, no idea how to quote, unfamiliar with the unwritten laws of conduct, so I do apologise for that.[/font] [font=Times New Roman, serif]Hmm, what I was getting at earlier, albeit with an impaired logic, was that we're all flawed, which we all know, was just exampling that on a personal level. Also about our entitlement to harbor internal beliefs, irregardless of the beliefs of external influences. The idea of whatever belief I hold being diminished or altered by the searching fingers of an old man seems absurd to me, had I experienced another set of unique circumstances, had I been affected more, it may be different.[/font] [font=Times New Roman, serif]The sacrifice of my neighbors cat was just an exaggeration, but people do worse than kidnapping Fluffy in the name of Ra these days. I did mean to imply that what I respect was 'his right' to have a belief, hold a belief, just to clarify. And setting cats on fire is never the answer.


[/font] [font=Times New Roman, serif]As stated, you'll have to forgive my limited understanding on definitions, someone (seamus?) illustrated a very fine margin which I tread upon, I was trying to be intentionally vague on that, and feel sorry I couldn't express my opinion in a more learned, concise manner.[/font] [font=Times New Roman, serif]All I wanted to ask, as if I didn't know, in the vaguest sense, is anti-theism to theists not like a theist shoving a pamphlet in an atheist's face? Like, even I'd get pissed off if some homeless man told me to worship his god without question, then pushed a piece of paper into my hand. That's a very extended metaphor, but spare me please. I understand that I'm dealing in black and white extremes, but it's for the sake of compacting this.

Someone said that if religion were internalised, and kept on an individual level, there would be no cause for a 'reaction,' which I get, thank you. [/font] [font=Times New Roman, serif]In the more extreme circumstances, both theism(is there an extreme theism, with a cooler name, or is it just theism and that encompasses all of it?) and anti-theism seem to infringe on the personal liberties of others, but I'm discussing this in absolutes and ideals. Another poster (Dades?) said if we all operated under the universal mantra of individual entitlement to belief, we'd be set, and he's right. and I do see the margin between atheism and anti-theism of course.[/font] [font=Times New Roman, serif]Back to anti-theism, I never suggested that any of the authors, unfamiliar to me on the most part, were forcing an idea down the throat of theists, apologies if that came across wrong. What they're doing, I'm assuming, is a scholarly approach to unearthing new truths and discussing our world, with god or without, in an endless empirical pursuit. Correct me if I'm wrong, I saw Dawkins and Hitchens and assumed. Not sure what Dawkins is, anti-theist? [/font] [font=Times New Roman, serif]


I was a bit worse for wear when I originally posted, not sure why exactly I posted, so please excuse absence of syntax, the length of posts and misuse of terms. [/font] [font=Times New Roman, serif]
And no, I did not stab someone with a toothbrush. I'm not a masochist or a killer looking for absolution on a forum. Just voicing some thoughts and vague opinions. I did not shiv someone with a toothbrush. And the old man was fine, he shook my hand. [/font]

Turtwig

eyes downcast wrote: »

we're all flawed

What exactly do mean by this? Are we all born flawed? Or do we develop flaws in later life? Furthermore, what are these "flaws" relative to? Other humans? The concept of perfection? God? Other?

Calibos

Hey 'oul Fella, I was only havin' a laugh, trying to skull you with a snowball. Just a bit o craic, ye know. Lets shake to show no hard feelings eh?

[Old man shakes OP's hand while shaking with fear not cold]



Reminds me of a news item the other day about the out of control youths in certain estates upturning neighbours cars, seting fire to them etc because of reduced Garda presence due to the Snow. When asked why they were doing this the reply was, "Sure we're only havin' a laugh like"

Its that catch all phrase that absolves anyone of anything these days it seems.

I know you are not a scummer OP nor was it your main point but I couldn't help but focus on it because I myself would never dream of throwing a snowball at an oul fella and just can't grasp how any right thinking person would even contemplate doing it for a laugh.

eyes downcast

Oh, I meant it in the vaguest possible sense, Malty. As in, I just thought we all have an inherent capacity to do wrong. I'm unsure if you meant was I implying are we inherently and intrinsically flawed, or if we develop a capacity to err from other humans and life?
It wasn't an opinion based on what is relative to like, a god, or whatever, I just thought we're all fallible.

The old man was discussing having a snowball fight inside, admittedly I waited in the bushes outside for an extended period.
After about fifteen minutes and on the other side of the car-park we were scraping snow off the same car roof, that's where he shook my hand, offering some words of sage wisdom which I promised I'd never forget. I did actually forget them though. Something about young girls.

Dades

Forgive me, but the anecdotes are hiding from me any actual question you might still be asking.

If the responses so far don't explain what it is you were getting at - you might try being more concise about what you really want opinions on.

Less is more!

eyes downcast

I think I had a number of questions originally, but I'm not sure if it's good or bad that this was moved from the Christianity forum, so it kinda obfuscated my original point. You guys seem interesting and opinionated people, so just thought I'd voice an opinion to you.

I was originally trying to say that I don't know why my belief in whatever it is I believe in, god or a god, jesus christ, should dwindle because of the imperfections and actions of a number of men? These are guys I've never met in my life, who have never touched my life, literally and figuratively, so I don't see why they should affect my, emm, spirituality?

Everything awful that happened as of late seems to play upon the tongues of people as quips and witticisms about paedophilia and infant abuse, but I don't see why that would alter my belief.

Turtwig

eyes downcast wrote: »

I think I had a number of questions originally, but I'm not sure if it's good or bad that this was moved from the Christianity forum, so it kinda obfuscated my original point. You guys seem interesting and opinionated people, so just thought I'd voice an opinion to you.

I was originally trying to say that I don't know why my belief in whatever it is I believe in, god or a god, jesus christ, should dwindle because of the imperfections and actions of a number of men? These are guys I've never met in my life, who have never touched my life, literally and figuratively, so I don't see why they should affect my, emm, spirituality?

Everything awful that happened as of late seems to play upon the tongues of people as quips and witticisms about paedophilia and infant abuse, but I don't see why that would alter my belief.

I'm still having a hard time following you. What do you believe?
Me : No God, no supernatural entities, no metaphysical horsh1t etc.

1sittingduck

eyes downcast wrote: »

I was originally trying to say that I don't know why my belief in whatever it is I believe in, god or a god, jesus christ, should dwindle because of the imperfections and actions of a number of men? These are guys I've never met in my life, who have never touched my life, literally and figuratively, so I don't see why they should affect my, emm, spirituality?

These are two rhetorical questions - seems like you're answering them yourself but you just want backup from posters here. I myself would say, as I already said, that you are indeed justified in keeping your beliefs as what the Church teaches is separate from what some members of the clergy have done wrong. Should they have done those things and do they have a right to do them? No and no. Paedophilia is utterly inexcusable. But it should only affect your way of thinking about those priests - they are not infallible in all they do.

Calibos

eyes downcast wrote: »

......The old man was discussing having a snowball fight inside, admittedly I waited in the bushes outside for an extended period.
After about fifteen minutes and on the other side of the car-park we were scraping snow off the same car roof, that's where he shook my hand, offering some words of sage wisdom which I promised I'd never forget. I did actually forget them though. Something about young girls.

Ah! Apologies so. I read it a certain way and ran with it. You were talking about sin and confession and all that too, so I just assumed you meant you regretted your thoughtless actions of throwing a snowball at poor defenseless doddery oul fella. Didn't realise it was a bit of mutual craic with him letting his inner child out. Dunno why you'd need to repent for that.

Anyway, back to the regular programming......

Flamed Diving

Hitchens is definitely anti-theist. Click on my sig.

eyes downcast

Dude above got it right(Sittingduck), clergy are not infallible and are no different to us, they err, they're human, etc, no point altering my belief because of their misdeeds.
Although nowhere was it suggested that what happened was anything other than 'utterly inexcusable.' People whose lives were more deeply entwined with the clerical abuse experienced something which I won't pretend to understand. Words like 'vile' and 'abominable' don't encompass it, and no apology will ever be adequate.
Having been so distant and untouched by what happened personally, other than the sense of disgrace which fell on the nation, I know why my beliefs were left unscathed.
No point affixing a label to what I believe in, Christ is probably close. He seems like a nice enough fellow.

Feel free to lock gents, thank you for keeping it interesting.