All in and walk away

jackhack

Action between three players after turn is dealt in a tournament game. First player bets out, second player flats and last player announces all-in, places a card marker on his cards, stands up and leaves the room. I know this is not good ethics but what is the correct ruling in this situation?

EI111

jackhack wrote: »

Action between three players after turn is dealt in a tournament game. First player bets out, second player flats and last player announces all-in, places a card marker on his cards, stands up and leaves the room. I know this is not good ethics but what is the correct ruling in this situation?

can't help you on the ruling but are you sure you don't mean etiquette instead of ethics?

edit: don't mean to be a d1ck dunno why i bothered pointing it out to be honest

jackhack

Opps!

Jam-Fly

bet stands, cards are live.

to kill the hand here would be extremely harsh. Cards are live and the player is issued a ]warning when/if he returns. As you said, it's bad etiquette but I don't really think it's against the rules.


It happened HU at the 1998 WSOP when Scotty Nguyen won.

Around 6:30 in

RichieD

Yeah i dont think it breaking the rules but generally uncool thing to do

5starpool

The only thing is that a player must turn over his own cards, and the dealer cannot do this for them. If they are not there to turn over their cards if called then I think the dealer can kill the hand. I would have little sympathy for someone in this situation tbh.

Jam-Fly

5starpool wrote: »

The only thing is that a player must turn over his own cards, and the dealer cannot do this for them. If they are not there to turn over their cards if called then I think the dealer can kill the hand. I would have little sympathy for someone in this situation tbh.

Why can the dealer not turn the player's hand over?

And seriously, would you actually kill hand in this situation? Surely that's way too harsh

5starpool

I am not, and have never been a TD, but it was always my understanding that you must turn over your own cards. If they walk out of the room then unless it was a very relaxed game, then killing their hand is not too harsh imo.

pkr_ennis

5starpool wrote: »

The only thing is that a player must turn over his own cards, and the dealer cannot do this for them. If they are not there to turn over their cards if called then I think the dealer can kill the hand. I would have little sympathy for someone in this situation tbh.

+1 Dealer never turns over a hand b/c he makes those cards live. If a player mistakingly mucks it's basically his fault for not protecting his hand properly.

With regard to being present at the table whilst your hand is in play,I think the situation could change if it's the WSOP ME final table, but if it's your regular €50+5 Friday night tourney, it's standard to kill the cards of someone who is not at the table. How many times did you see someone get up from the table, pre flop, out of turn and leave the room for a cigarette or whatever. Many in my experience. He's basically forfeiting the chance to win the pot when he walks away. You just kill his hand.

If you're facing a big decision, I think you have to be in or close to your seat and paying full attention to the game to be considered part of the hand. Otherwise you're just indicating non interest in the hand and run the risk of getting your hand mucked. Here we have to trust our dealers to use their common sense here.
Expediating the game is a crucial part of poker rules for casino's.
C

jackhack

I would agree with the player being allowed walk away. He has put all his chips into the pot and can no longer be included in any action.The only reason for him to stay in his seat is for another player to get a read from him. I have often seen a dead stack get blinded out of a tourney and when his last blind is put in the dealer always turns his cards and plays them live so why not a live players? Is it possible to call this leaving the room action angle-shooting?

NewApproach

jackhack wrote: »

I would agree with the player being allowed walk away. He has put all his chips into the pot and can no longer be included in any action.The only reason for him to stay in his seat is for another player to get a read from him. I have often seen a dead stack get blinded out of a tourney and when his last blind is put in the dealer always turns his cards and plays them live so why not a live players? Is it possible to call this leaving the room action angle-shooting?

I agree with this, the player has made his bet, and AFAIK you cannot kill an all in hand. No more for the player to do imo. But agree its bad etiquette.

5starpool

You can't kill a hand that is all in where it has been exposed. If the cards have not been shown then it surely doesn't count? This situation is different from a player who has a stack blinded out imo.

Where is oz with his big bnook of Roberts Rules when you need him.

gorrrr72

I know it's not the point but did anybody ask him why he left? Did he get an important phone call or did he need to take a panic dump? Does his eyebrows dance when he has aces, was he mumbling to himself "if you call it's gonna be all over baby" or was he just generally being a dick?

AKDonk

5starpool wrote: »

The only thing is that a player must turn over his own cards, and the dealer cannot do this for them. If they are not there to turn over their cards if called then I think the dealer can kill the hand. I would have little sympathy for someone in this situation tbh.

That would be true if the all in occured on the River. But as i understand, all cards must be exposed when it goes to a showdown before the river card is dealt.

TDA Rules wrote:

9. Face Up
All cards will be turned face up once a player is all-in and all betting action is complete.

Also, If its the dealers intetion to kill the hand if its not exposed by the player, the dealer should state this when he notices the player going away.

Dice75

gorrrr72 wrote: »

I know it's not the point but did anybody ask him why he left? Did he get an important phone call or did he need to take a panic dump? Does his eyebrows dance when he has aces, was he mumbling to himself "if you call it's gonna be all over baby" or was he just generally being a dick?

:eek: !!!

Jam-Fly

lol, come on, there is no comparison to a player leaving his seat to have a fag before the action even gets to him in a hand, and a player pushing all in and leaving the table.

I understand that if you're standing up talking to a friend for example (or even just standing up by your seat) that the dealer has a right to kill your hand, and I don't really have any problem with this. But if a player pushes all-in and stands up/leaves:
1. he can gain no advantage by seeing another player's cards or getting outside information etc. (the reasoning behind a player standing up not being allowed play his hand is because he could see another player's hand while standing up)
2. He has obviously declared an interest in playing the hand


I think to go and kill an all-in hand because a player left the room is quick a shocking decision tbh.

As the player was leaving the room, did anyone ask him why he was leaving? Or tell him his hand would be dead if he left? Surely there is an obligation on the TD or dealer to warn the player that if he does leave, his hand will be dead.

And also, the reasoning for killing the hand (ie dealer can't turn up a player's cards), is there any reference for this rule? If this is a rule (even a house rule), I'm sure it was created so as to be implemented for showdowns (ie. so when a player doesn't show or mucks his hand on a showdown, the dealer is not supposed to turn up the hand making it live again).

pkr_ennis

Jam-Fly wrote: »

lol, come on, there is no comparison to a player leaving his seat to have a fag before the action even gets to him in a hand, and a player pushing all in and leaving the table.

I understand that if you're standing up talking to a friend for example (or even just standing up by your seat) that the dealer has a right to kill your hand, and I don't really have any problem with this. But if a player pushes all-in and stands up/leaves:
1. he can gain no advantage by seeing another player's cards or getting outside information etc. (the reasoning behind a player standing up not being allowed play his hand is because he could see another player's hand while standing up)
2. He has obviously declared an interest in playing the hand


I think to go and kill an all-in hand because a player left the room is quick a shocking decision tbh.

As the player was leaving the room, did anyone ask him why he was leaving? Or tell him his hand would be dead if he left? Surely there is an obligation on the TD or dealer to warn the player that if he does leave, his hand will be dead.

And also, the reasoning for killing the hand (ie dealer can't turn up a player's cards), is there any reference for this rule? If this is a rule (even a house rule), I'm sure it was created so as to be implemented for showdowns (ie. so when a player doesn't show or mucks his hand on a showdown, the dealer is not supposed to turn up the hand making it live again).

lol... I didn't read the OP well and made a bad post, but hey...
I've been thinking about it the last few days and reckon you just go and get the guy and make him sit there. Or at least be around for the showdown.
I guess if he keeps doing it you could warn him or whatever you thought appropriate.

You gotta be at the game to show your interest in the hand though. It's really bad form not to allow your opponent to get a read on you. That is part of poker after all. I'd make them sit there.

I believe the dealer can't turn over someones hand as it violates the 1 player to a hand rule. That's how I would view it anyway. I know for a fact that in Vegas dealers are not allowed to turn over a players hand. It's like the dealer is showing it down which is obviously not what they're there to do.
C

rx8

Saw a guy doing it at the Irish Open last year, and when he walked away,he left his shoes on the floor under his chair.
He berated his opponent from 4 tables away for about 2 minutes before the other guy eventually folded.... He came back to claim the pot and stack the chips and flicked over 9 4os.:D
Said that he was fed up with the same guy taking ages over every decision and being a tool at the table.

This is him....http://uk.pokernews.com/news/2009/02/andy-bradshaw-broadway-1045.htm

jackhack

The player in question has told me he pushed all in about 2mins before the break and stayed in his seat for about 3mins into the break. I don`t know if the clock was paused for dealers to chip up or not but he felt his opponent was taking the p1ss and left his cards with a card protector and went for a fag. The dealer made no comment but his opponent asked him where he was going.
He told him his decision was made and he could do no more.
Tbh I think at this point his opponent should have called for the TD but i suppose you have different rules in many clubs.It`s an odd situation which you won`t encounter too often.

jackhack

Maybe a few club TD`s could come in here and give their opinion on how they would rule this action.

gorrrr72

jackhack wrote: »

The player in question has told me he pushed all in about 2mins before the break and stayed in his seat for about 3mins into the break. I don`t know if the clock was paused for dealers to chip up or not but he felt his opponent was taking the p1ss and left his cards with a card protector and went for a fag. The dealer made no comment but his opponent asked him where he was going.
He told him his decision was made and he could do no more.
Tbh I think at this point his opponent should have called for the TD but i suppose you have different rules in many clubs.It`s an odd situation which you won`t encounter too often.

If he felt his opponent was taking the piss taking his time over a decision he should have called for the clock.
5 minutes is taking the piss but sounds like an exaggeration IMO.

JP Poker

Personally I would never kill a players hand in this situation.

The players intention is clearly to play the hand and not to fold, this is key for me!

connie147

I agree with JP. But I would probably tell the player that if he feels that his opponnent was taking too long, then calling for a clock is the way forward. I would have asked him to return to his table. I dont mind a player moving all in and standing up, or even walking around his chair, but leaving the room is a bit much.

Connie

jackhack

I agree with you Connie but I personally would never call clock on a player that I would be directly involved in a hand with.

ShamoBuc

I can see why people would call clock on that kind of a player... nothing more annoying. I always hope that kind of player are knocked out as early as possible.

pkr_ennis

jackhack wrote: »

I agree with you Connie but I personally would never call clock on a player that I would be directly involved in a hand with.

Whats wrong with calling clock? Tournament poker is a competitive environment. The clock is part of the game, whats wrong with calling it? I'd call it no problem. I'd call clock and then talk to him for the minute ten lol,
C

Mellor

AKDonk wrote: »

That would be true if the all in occured on the River. But as i understand, all cards must be exposed when it goes to a showdown before the river card is dealt.

Nope.
If the other players have the player who moved in covered then cards stay down. Also, in the OP on the player immediately to act after the all-in can re-shove. The other player can only call.

jackhack wrote: »

I agree with you Connie but I personally would never call clock on a player that I would be directly involved in a hand with.

That's silly. If anything, these are the players who should call clock on easier.

OasisKid

pkr_ennis wrote: »

+1 Dealer never turns over a hand b/c he makes those cards live. If a player mistakingly mucks it's basically his fault for not protecting his hand properly.

With regard to being present at the table whilst your hand is in play,I think the situation could change if it's the WSOP ME final table, but if it's your regular €50+5 Friday night tourney, it's standard to kill the cards of someone who is not at the table. How many times did you see someone get up from the table, pre flop, out of turn and leave the room for a cigarette or whatever. Many in my experience. He's basically forfeiting the chance to win the pot when he walks away. You just kill his hand.

If you're facing a big decision, I think you have to be in or close to your seat and paying full attention to the game to be considered part of the hand. Otherwise you're just indicating non interest in the hand and run the risk of getting your hand mucked. Here we have to trust our dealers to use their common sense here.
Expediating the game is a crucial part of poker rules for casino's.
C

in a cash game and player go's all inn and then gets up and goes to smokin area, i call and say to him to wait, he says no but his friend offers to turn over his cards. is his friend allowed to do this?

Thanks

sadim

phone call