Why are Africa not quite as dominant over the marathon as they are over 5k and 10k?

Pisco Sour

Obviously the Kenyans and Ethiopians are the benchmark but for some reason they dont seem to be as dominant in the marathon as they are in the 5000m and 10000m

The following are the Gold, Silver and Bronze medallists from the last 5 Olympics in each event for men: Non African medal winners are in bold.

5000m:

1992: 1) Germany, 2) Kenya, 3) Ethiopia
1996: 1) Burundi, 2) Kenya, 3) Morocco
2000: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Algeria, 3) Morocco
2004: 1) Morocco, 2) Ethiopia, 3) Kenya
2008: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Kenya, 3) Kenya

10000m:

1992: 1) Morocco, 2) Kenya, 3) Ethiopia
1996: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Kenya, 3) Morocco
2000: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Kenya, 3) Ethiopia
2004: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Ethiopia, 3) Eritrea
2008: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Ethiopia, 3) Kenya

Marathon:

1992: 1) South Korea, 2) Japan, 3) Germany
1996: 1) South Africa, 2) South Korea, 3) Kenya
2000: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Kenya, 3) Ethiopia
2004: 1) Italy, 2) USA, 3) Brazil
2008: 1) Kenya, 2) Morocco, 3) Ethiopia

Non African athletes have had a lot more joy over the marathon than in the other 2 events. Is there any particular reason why the Africans aren't quite as formidable over that particular distance?

menoscemo

04072511 wrote: »

Marathon:

1996: 1) South Africa, 2) South Korea, 3) Kenya

South africans aren't Africans? I thought the name might have given it away.

shels4ever

04072511 wrote: »

Obviously the Kenyans and Ethiopians are the benchmark but for some reason they dont seem to be as dominant in the marathon as they are in the 5000m and 10000m

The following are the Gold, Silver and Bronze medallists from the last 4 Olympics in each event for men: Non African medal winners are in bold.

5000m:

1996: 1) Burundi, 2) Kenya, 3) Morocco
2000: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Algeria, 3) Morocco
2004: 1) Morocco, 2) Ethiopia, 3) Kenya
2008: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Kenya, 3) Kenya

10000m:

1996: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Kenya, 3) Morocco
2000: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Kenya, 3) Ethiopia
2004: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Ethiopia, 3) Eritrea
2008: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Ethiopia, 3) Kenya

Marathon:

1996: 1) South Africa, 2) South Korea, 3) Kenya
2000: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Kenya, 3) Ethiopia
2004: 1) Italy, 2) USA, 3) Brazil
2008: 1) Kenya, 2) Morocco, 3) Ethiopia

Non African athletes have had a lot more joy over the marathon than in the other 2 events. Is there any particular reason why the Africans aren't quite as formidable over that particular distance?

I think if yo looked at the times run by African( maybe just Kenyan) last year for the marathon it will tell another stor. I think there were a huge amount of kenyans alone that ran sub 2:10. It maybe a case that there is more money in big city marathon the the worlds and olympics.

robinph

menoscemo wrote: »

South africans aren't Africans? I thought the name might have given it away.

Depends on the sport, but in that case though I think that was South Africas first non-white medalist in the Olympics?

Pisco Sour

menoscemo wrote: »

South africans aren't Africans? I thought the name might have given it away.

Hahaha, oh dear, not a proud moment! :eek:

I'll re-edit that. For some reason I subconciously didnt count them as part of "The Africans" when it comes to distance running!

robinph

shels4ever wrote: »

I think if yo looked at the times run by African( maybe just Kenyan) last year for the marathon it will tell another stor. I think there were a huge amount of kenyans alone that ran sub 2:10. It maybe a case that there is more money in big city marathon the the worlds and olympics.

I'd go along with money being the issue as you can do far less marathons in a year than you can 5k and 10k races, so if that is where you earn you living you do the ones that pay money. The other nations probably have more financial support for their elite athletes so those marathon runners don't need to chase the prize money as much...maybe.

robinph

04072511 wrote: »

Hahaha, oh dear, not a proud moment! :eek:

I'll re-edit that. For some reason I subconciously didnt count them as part of "The Africans" when it comes to distance running!

A lot of the time you would have been right though, just not for the '96 Olympic marathon.

limericklion

There are literally hundreds of kenyas capable of running sub 2.08 meaning the strenght in depth is clearly there. There was an Ethiopan winner of the Boston Marathon in 2009 in Merga, Kibet ran 2.04 along with Kwambai in Rotherdam, Sammy won London, Haile won Dubai and Berlin and 80%( rough estimate)of the top ten in these big races are African. Gomesde Santos from Brazil has won New York a couple of times and Baldini was a real talent as is Ryan Hall, Ritz in the future. Africans do dominate but there will be exceptions as people must remember there are plenty of places in America to live at altitude Boulder Colorado, Fagstaff, New Mexico, Big Bear just to name a few

ss43

The Olympic marathon traditionally hasn't been as important or competitive as some of the big city ones. 2008 was different and maybe its the beginning of a new trend. It was dominated by Africa.

Until recently there wasn't as much money in marathons but that's changed so now more AFricans are turning their attentions that way and the standard is rising. I'd expect African dominance in the next Olympics and presumably subsequent ones also.

04072511 wrote: »

Obviously the Kenyans and Ethiopians are the benchmark but for some reason they dont seem to be as dominant in the marathon as they are in the 5000m and 10000m

The following are the Gold, Silver and Bronze medallists from the last 5 Olympics in each event for men: Non African medal winners are in bold.

5000m:

1992: 1) Germany, 2) Kenya, 3) Ethiopia
1996: 1) Burundi, 2) Kenya, 3) Morocco
2000: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Algeria, 3) Morocco
2004: 1) Morocco, 2) Ethiopia, 3) Kenya
2008: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Kenya, 3) Kenya

10000m:

1992: 1) Morocco, 2) Kenya, 3) Ethiopia
1996: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Kenya, 3) Morocco
2000: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Kenya, 3) Ethiopia
2004: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Ethiopia, 3) Eritrea
2008: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Ethiopia, 3) Kenya

Marathon:

1992: 1) South Korea, 2) Japan, 3) Germany
1996: 1) South Africa, 2) South Korea, 3) Kenya
2000: 1) Ethiopia, 2) Kenya, 3) Ethiopia
2004: 1) Italy, 2) USA, 3) Brazil
2008: 1) Kenya, 2) Morocco, 3) Ethiopia

Non African athletes have had a lot more joy over the marathon than in the other 2 events. Is there any particular reason why the Africans aren't quite as formidable over that particular distance?

Rio 2016

IMO the reason why the Africans do not appear to have been as dominant in the Marathon is because up until recently, they have not targeted it as much as the track events.

One interesting point to note is that in 1964 Abebe Bikila (African) ran a 2:12 world record and in 1967 Derek Clayton ran a 2:09 (European) ran a 2:09 world record but today the fatest African has run 2:03:59 and yet no white man has yet to break 2:06. This shows the African dominance of the event but from the outside it makes little sense.

Kiptanui

Small correction - Derek Claydon was Australian. Your point is accurate though.

--amadeus--

Your right for women but not men. Look at the list of teh 400 fastest marathons (here). A brazillian in 25th, a Japanese in 31st, an american a 36, and a Portugese and a Frenchman in joint 49th. And thats your lot for non-african in the top 50.

So that 90% of the 50 fastest ever male marathons are by Africans (predominantly Kenyan and Ethiopian). If that's not dominance I don't know what is!

Pisco Sour

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Your right for women but not men. Look at the list of teh 400 fastest marathons (here). A brazillian in 25th, a Japanese in 31st, an american a 36, and a Portugese and a Frenchman in joint 49th. And thats your lot for non-african in the top 50.

So that 90% of the 50 fastest ever male marathons are by Africans (predominantly Kenyan and Ethiopian). If that's not dominance I don't know what is!

True. Though this dominance hasnt been reflected in the Olympics which is my original question.

myflipflops

04072511 wrote: »

True. Though this dominance hasnt been reflected in the Olympics which is my original question.

It's much harder to peak for Olympic marathons than for the track events.

Track athletes have a whole summer of racing to build towards a major championships. Marathon training is a completely different beast and the likelihood of injuries or getting it wrong is higher. Add to this that a track athletes season is the same, year in, year out in terms of a normal racing schedule. Marathoners have to alter their normal schedule to suit a major championship. They are lost likely used to peaking for a couple of major marathons in winter and in autumn so the change to a summer peak is different.

Another factor is the nature of the actual race itself. The men's marathon (apart from 08) has traditionally been ran at a slower pace and been a more tactical affair than you're standard city marathon. This a 2.09 guy a chance on the right day if he runs right. A 2.07-2.09 European marathoner could run smart tactically and have a real shout in a race being won in his comfort zone time wise. This isn't the case on the track.

The third possible factor (i could be talking cr*p here though) is the heat. Barcelona and Athens were certainly ran in oppressive heat. That effects all the athletes differently on the day and leads to a more tactitcal race and more possible winners. The heat has much less of an effect over the shorter track distances.

I used to believe that the marathon was distance event where a medal was up for grabs by a non-African in global championships. I think that time could be ending. The way the 08 Olympics and 09 Worlds were ran (very hard from the start) will lead to a similar African dominance as we have in the 5k/10k. There are just so many Africans running quick marathons and getting quicker and quicker.

Kiptanui

That is simply due to the nature of the event and money. As you can only race infrequently over the marathon distance many of the top africans focus on the big city marathons rather than the championships.

A look at the iaaf world top 100 in the marathon reveals the real depth of the africans in the marathons - simply incredible. Based on the recent past though, a top non african distance runner has a much greater chance of achieving success in the marathon than the 10000m.

Rio 2016

Kiptanui wrote: »

Small correction - Derek Claydon was Australian. Your point is accurate though.

Born in England, competed for Austrailia.

sleapy235

Why are people only focusing on the men's marathon here? Only 2 or 3 of the top 10 women's marathon times have been by African runners, and none of the medalists in the Beijing Olympics were women. Perhaps a more interesting question is why the African women havn't been as dominant as their male counterparts. Indeed, while African runners haven't dominated in the womens distance events as much as the mens events in general over the last 5 Olympics, the difference between 5/10k and marathon is much more marked on the womens side of things.

--amadeus--

sleapy235 wrote: »

Why are people only focusing on the men's marathon here? Only 2 or 3 of the top 10 women's marathon times have been by African runners, and none of the medalists in the Beijing Olympics were women. Perhaps a more interesting question is why the African women havn't been as dominant as their male counterparts. Indeed, while African runners haven't dominated in the womens distance events as much as the mens events in general over the last 5 Olympics, the difference between 5/10k and marathon is much more marked on the womens side of things.

At the risk of being branded un-PC I'd guess that's cultural & based on traditional gender roles.

myflipflops

--amadeus-- wrote: »

At the risk of being branded un-PC I'd guess that's cultural & based on traditional gender roles.

Un-PC or not, the point is accurate.

sleapy235

At the risk of being branded un-PC I'd guess that's cultural & based on traditional gender roles.

So what you're saying is that theres actually loads of Kenyan and Ethiopian women who could destroy Paula Radcliffe's marathon record but they're too busy minding the kids?
There's no shortage of Kenyan and Ethiopian female distance runners, so while traditional gender roles may be a part of the reason, I'm not convinced that its a complete explanation.

myflipflops

sleapy235 wrote: »

So what you're saying is that theres actually loads of Kenyan and Ethiopian women who could destroy Paula Radcliffe's marathon record but they're too busy minding the kids?
There's no shortage of Kenyan and Ethiopian female distance runners, so while traditional gender roles may be a part of the reason, I'm not convinced that its a complete explanation.

Radcliffe's record is a completely different factor. It's so far ahead of anything else ever ran by a female that African women could dominate the event without running within 3 minutes of that record.

If you got a group of Kenyan/Ethiopian women churning out 2.19 marathons in the way that the men churn out 2.06 then they would dominate.

Traditional gender roles going back to the 60's in these countries mean that the woman have been later to get to the top level of athletics and as such, are a generation behind the men in terms of athletic development. I would be very surprised if we don't have a similar African dominance in womens marathon running by maybe the 2028 Olympics.

It has only been in the last decade that African women have really dominated the 5k/10k (see Sonia and Szabo leaving the Ethiopians in their wake in Syndey where Geb and tergat ran that most memerable of African 10k battles). That dominance should, naturally, develop in the longer distance too.

Trekkie Monster

I think the point made about gender roles is as fair an opinion as any other, as we don't really know why African women don't achieve as much as African men. There's no doubt that having to rear children (in any country) reduces a woman's opportunity for a sporting career. Maybe the schooling opportunities aren't there for women, or it's a cultural thing (Boulmerka had stones thrown at her in Algeria for baring her legs). I guess the only way to find out is to research it properly.

Maybe it's physiological, maybe it's to do with the training they do. The women's marathon has only been in the Olympics since 1984 so it's a relatively new event.

Pisco Sour

Kiptanui wrote: »

That is simply due to the nature of the event and money. As you can only race infrequently over the marathon distance many of the top africans focus on the big city marathons rather than the championships.

Would this be the reason Catherina McKiernan didnt compete in the European Championships in Budapest in 1998 in the Marathon but intead opt for the Amsterdam Marathon that year? I've always wondered why she didnt compete in the Europeans that year as she would have been pretty close to a dead cert to win Gold with the form she was in.