no antifreeze in car ,totally frozen what to do

NedKelly

I repalced a radiator last month in the missus car and i had to refill it
there was a leak in one of the hoses so i just kept topping it up with water untill i got round to fixing it (no antifreeze)
the car now is totally frozen all the hoses are frozen
and when she tried to start it this morning it wouldnt even turn over
(the water pump is frozen solid) is the water pump run off the timing belt?
its a landrover freelander 1.8 and im worried the belt might have jumped and or the block might crack with the ice
what to do

kona

Nothing. Wait for it to thaw.

Or

Remove Rad and hoses and place them in a WARM bath, and defrost them. Try get heat into the Block to get rid of the ICE there.


Also considering its a K-series, the chance for thermal shock is quite high, so maybe order a new head gasket just in case;)

Then Facepalm for running a car in winter with no antifreeze.

wilson10

I would start looking in the buy & sell or ebay for a replacement engine.

An engine outdoors without antifreeze over the last week will not have survived.

Cylinder head and maybe block will be cracked.

si_guru

Try and get the car in the sun..

As previous poster says, that 1.8 K series needs to be treated extremely carefully.

kona

wilson10 wrote: »

I would start looking in the buy & sell or ebay for a replacement engine.

An engine outdoors without antifreeze over the last week will not have survived.

Cylinder head and maybe block will be cracked.

Well, lets not jump to conclusions, there is some give in the block with the frost plugs etc.

But if its not starting you could be correct in saying the head is cracked adn the engine isnt getting compression.

8560

put a infra red lamp on under the bonnet and thaw it out. your engine could be burst, or the frost plug could be popped out. best of luck

NedKelly

its not starting because the water pump is frozen solid
and its run off the timing belt ( i think)

kona

NedKelly wrote: »

its not starting because the water pump is frozen solid
and its run off the timing belt ( i think)

You will find it actually will. Its belt driven and run off the Crank. So it has nothing to do with it running.

If it is frozen solid you will get a burning smell when the engine runs as the belt rubs of the frozed Waterpump pulley.

Make sure you have over 11.5V at the battery and then make sure you have fuel, then a spark.

It will crank slow due to the cold electrics and the thickness of the engine oil.

If it still doesnt fire Id put money on your head being fooked.

NedKelly

yes but the crank wont turn as its run off the same belt as the water pump thats frozen

TJJP

> it wouldnt even turn over

Start at the start. Your battery is fooked, it needs a jump or new batt because of the cold.

However, the block could be full of ice. Get a lamp or electric blanket (€25) in around there and heat it up for a few hours just to be safe (or wait for a thaw).

Look for leaks.

If it seems ok, crank it.

Oh, and put some proper coolant in it, but you know that.

ps. Kona seems pretty spot on (on not jumping to conclusions), it doesn't have to be dead, everyone expects the worst, but we've been here before (albeit 40 years ago) with much worse cars.

DublinDilbert

kona wrote: »

You will find it actually will. Its belt driven and run off the Crank. So it has nothing to do with it running.

If it is frozen solid you will get a burning smell when the engine runs as the belt rubs of the frozed Waterpump pulley.

Make sure you have over 11.5V at the battery and then make sure you have fuel, then a spark.

It will crank slow due to the cold electrics and the thickness of the engine oil.

If it still doesnt fire Id put money on your head being fooked.

Please don't follow the advise above.... Nearly all water pumps run off the timing belt have a toothed pulley. If the water pump is frozen solid the timing belt will not last very long if the engine is turned over.

Wait till it haws out fully, or get some heat in or around it... but don't turn it over till your sure

kona

NedKelly wrote: »

yes but the crank wont turn as its run off the same belt as the water pump thats frozen

No, the crank is connected to the pistons Via conrods. Power is produced by the pressure produced due to the expansion on the hot gasses upon combustion.

This up and downward force is converted to reciprocal force via your conrods, and crank.

Now the co effecient of friction for your rubber belt isnt going to be enough to stall the motor, the crank WILL turn if you get the engine running. The crank turns the belt, which powers the ancillaries.

Do what has been mentioned above and it will fire, if it doesnt youll need a compression test.

Is you starter "clicking" or is the engine turning over? If its doing neither and your battery is giving a min of 11.5V, then check the connections to the starter.

Also worth checking all the earths, mainly the battery earth and the engine earth strap.

NedKelly

would or could the timing belt jump? if the water pump is solid

kona

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Please don't follow the advise above....

Why not?

did you even read my first post?

Youd want to be pretty dumb to fire up a frozen motor.

kona

NedKelly wrote: »

would or could the timing belt jump? if the water pump is solid

Could snap.


If I were you Id try get heat into the engine from outside. Otherwise Forget about it and wait till the place gets warmer.

Mr.Diagnostic

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Please don't follow the advise above.... Nearly all water pumps run off the timing belt have a toothed pulley. If the water pump is frozen solid the timing belt will not last very long if the engine is turned over.

Wait till it haws out fully, or get some heat in or around it... but don't turn it over till your sure

DD is correct. The water pump is driven off the timing belt on this particular engine.

Darsad

NedKelly wrote: »

would or could the timing belt jump? if the water pump is solid

If the pump is driven by the T belt then absolutly ( Im not too sure about LR engines) plenty of other experts on here! My advice remove the bottom rad hose & leave it alone ,hopefully you can drain some water out and minimise expansion and damage. When it is thawed try rotating the engine by hand first and if you can remove the spark plugs first (im assuming its a petrol engine) if it rotates freely then the chances are you may be ok to try starting it !

DublinDilbert

kona wrote: »

You will find it actually will. Its belt driven and run off the Crank. So it has nothing to do with it running. If it is frozen solid you will get a burning smell when the engine runs as the belt rubs of the frozed Waterpump pulley.

kona wrote: »

Why not?

did you even read my first post?

Youd want to be pretty dumb to fire up a frozen motor.

No i didn't read your first post. the op might not either, but the above post might give someone the impression that it was ok to turn the engine over. And that all that will happen would be the belt would make a bit of a burning smell.

It wouldn't make a burning smell, it would more than likely break or hop off the water pump.

Yes someone would want to be dumb to fire up a frozen engine, but plenty of people with no experience read the forums here, so one might just try it...

kona

DublinDilbert wrote: »

No i didn't read your first post. the op might not either, but the above post might give someone the impression that it was ok to turn the engine over. And that all that will happen would be the belt would make a bit of a burning smell.

It wouldn't make a burning smell, it would more than likely break or hop off the water pump.

Yes someone would want to be dumb to fire up a frozen engine, but plenty of people with no experience read the forums here, so one might just try it...

Isnt the K-series Non-Interference?

But yes I do understand that you have to make things Idiot proof around here.

DublinDilbert

kona wrote: »

Isnt the K-series Non-Interference?

But yes I do understand that you have to make things Idiot proof around here.

Its an Interference as far as i know. I saw one with a broken timing belt a few weeks back, the head had to be pulled.

Darragh29

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

DD is correct. The water pump is driven off the timing belt on this particular engine.

+1. If you have turned over the engine the high probability now is that the timing belt has jumped some teeth on a non-rotating/frozen water pump. This can and usually does carry the same consequences as a broken timing belt.

On the other hand, there may be no damage done, best advice is to get the vehicle into a shed or indoors and heat up the room for a day or two until the engine can defrost and try to start it then and see what happens.

mickdw

kona wrote: »

Isnt the K-series Non-Interference?

But yes I do understand that you have to make things Idiot proof around here.

Kona, I think you are back tracking here. You gave a lecture there about the basics of engines and how the forces would easily overcome the grip of a belt.
As far as I can see you were assuming the water pump was driven on the alternator belt and the tone of your post was based on this giving the impression that really the engine would turn over fine even if water pump frozen and that it wasnt really an issue. Im far from an idiot and this is what I took from your post.

trish23

Same thing happened to me today. Opel astra, when the water pump was replaced it was only refilled with water - no antifreeze:mad: We spent a couple of hours with hairdryers & the kettle & have defrosted all the pipes & the water is now running through. However, there is still ice in the engine block & there is no way I will even try & start the car after the noise it was making this morning. My brother thinks the starter is frozen & the pin will not jump out. We're going to tackle this again tomorrow - any tips? Cheers

kona

mickdw wrote: »

Kona, I think you are back tracking here. You gave a lecture there about the basics of engines and how the forces would easily overcome the grip of a belt..

Im not backtracking, I gave a "lecture" because of what the OP said about the waterpump driving the crank, I was explaining what I was talking about.

mickdw wrote: »

As far as I can see you were assuming the water pump was driven on the alternator belt and the tone of your post was based on this giving the impression that really the engine would turn over fine even if water pump frozen and that it wasnt really an issue. Im far from an idiot and this is what I took from your post.

I did assume that, but if you read my first post, I never said to turn over a frozen motor.
If you fired up

Of course you can be as pedantic as you like around here.

There are plenty of "Idiots" on Boards.ie. I never said you were one:). Most people know if they are idiots.

DublinDilbert

trish23 wrote: »

Same thing happened to me today. Opel astra, when the water pump was replaced it was only refilled with water - no antifreeze:mad: We spent a couple of hours with hairdryers & the kettle & have defrosted all the pipes & the water is now running through. However, there is still ice in the engine block & there is no way I will even try & start the car after the noise it was making this morning. My brother thinks the starter is frozen & the pin will not jump out. We're going to tackle this again tomorrow - any tips? Cheers

You could also try putting an inspection lamp under the bonnet and leaving it powered up over night to see if the heat helps.

Once you think you've got it thawed out, turn over the engine by hand, using a spanner / socket on the crank. If you can take off the upper timing chain cover and observe the water pump turning all the better.

trish23

Thanks, Dublin dilbert. Was going to put a blow heater on it in the morning for a couple of hours. I have the engine covered with a blanket tonight & we have got some antifreeze into what we managed to clear. Thanks for the tips, I'm sure the brother will love me tomorrow!:D

kona

Label up your HT leads and remove your spark plugs. The engine will be easier to turn over.

You can also put in into 4th and push the car to turn is over.

Putting a blanket on it wont do much as it wont trap any heat as there is none.

Its going to take alot more than a bulb to melt ice in a engine. It takes alot of heat to raise 1L of water by 1 degree. Thats before you have to heat up the Cast Iron/Aluminium block before you even heat the water, and then you have the latent heat.

The only way your going to thaw that is with a prolonged period(maybe a day or so) of + temps.

trish23

kona wrote: »

The only way your going to thaw that is with a prolonged period(maybe a day or so) of + temps.

I could be waiting a while so?:)

Gary ITR

The most important thing is don't tell the wife you didn't put anti freeze into it

kona

trish23 wrote: »

I could be waiting a while so?:)

Well, if you want the option with the fewest question marks for safety;)

There is another way,

But I aint gunna say:rolleyes:

cascade35

TJJP wrote: »

> Get a lamp or electric blanket (€25) in around there and heat it up for a few hours just to be safe (or wait for a thaw).

Have you used an electric blanket for this sort of job? My friend also has a frozen engine and Ive an electric blanket in the attic, but Im worried about giving it to him because its bound to get damp and I would hate to see him get fried under the bonnet!
In theory it seems like a good idea.But..........

NedKelly

Started first thing today
no cracks or leaks in the block
put in 2 LT of antifreeze!!
cheers for the advice

kona

NedKelly wrote: »

Started first thing today
no cracks or leaks in the block
put in 2 LT of antifreeze!!
cheers for the advice

Glad to hear it worked out