Individual Track control into DAW's?

Welease · 08-01-2010 2:07pm #1

Right, here is my first n00b question of the new year

I have an 18 track firewire mixer that I connect to my DAW.. Its 18 in to the DAW and 2 out back out to the Mixer over firewire. I can use the mixer to effect the signal before it hits the DAW (obviously) but once in the DAW, I lose all control and functionality.. No issue there, I understand I would need to control console for the DAW in order to control sliders, panning etc.

The last studio I was in (in the UK), had a similar setup albeit on a much larger scale.. iirc it was a 32-16-8 or whatever type desk with the 8 busses routed into a Mac/Logic. They used a pretty similar workflow, tweak some minor elements using the desk, then the vast majority of work was done in the DAW and a control console surface.

Now that seems like a big waste of a huge 10ft long mixing desk which must has cost thousands, and apart from using its pre-amps the vast majority of the desk was untouched and unused (all panning, eq'ing etc was done in the DAW).

So onto my question

Sometimes watching documentaries etc. you will see lots of tweaks being made on the desk which is in the signal chain before the DAW.
Are these modern (I assume) desks being used as control surfaces also, or are they just modifying the recorded sound to requirements before it hits the DAW? Once in the DAW do they have the same workflow as above, and they would revert to mouse/control surfaces for the rest of the job?

Edit - I guess what I am getting at is.. it seems rediculous if I understand the process correctly, to require effectively 2 desks (1 traditional mixer/preamps and 1 control surface) to do the single job of inputting and manipulating the tracks.

jtsuited · 08-01-2010 2:25pm

you're forgetting that the tracks can also be coming out of the DAW into the desk and being mixed there. Very very very common practice these days, especially by the big guns who still love to mix on neves/ssl's/etc but have left their tape days behind them.

Welease · 08-01-2010 2:27pm

jtsuited wrote: »

you're forgetting that the tracks can also be coming out of the DAW into the desk and being mixed there. Very very very common practice these days, especially by the big guns who still love to mix on neves/ssl's/etc but have left their tape days behind them.

ok thats what I am getting out.. So these desks would have effectively 32 (for example) in and outs with the signal being routed back and forward from the DAW to the desk?

I am a bit confused about the signal chain and how this is wierd up I guess..

a) I guess my mixer wouldn't be capable as it is capable of sending 18 channels to the PC but only receiving 2 back
b) If I bought an old Soundcraft analogue desk for example, can that be used for the mixing process like you mentioned?
c) If so, how does the routing process work.. How do I send channel 1 to the DAW and then be able to route it back to the Channel 1 strip if I want to subsequently pan left for example.

Aridstarling · 08-01-2010 2:36pm

Exactly. Signal comes back on the tape returns. You just replace the tape machine with whatever your DAW of choice is.

Welease · 08-01-2010 2:46pm

Aridstarling wrote: »

Exactly. Signal comes back on the tape returns. You just replace the tape machine with whatever your DAW of choice is.

Ahh... this mist is beginning to clear (apologies I edited the previous post while you were posting this).. thanks

So from a normal analogue desk, each channel would have a tape out and return that would send/receive the signal from the DAW?

In effect (hope the formatting holds)

Channel 1 ----> Desk----> Tape out ---> DAW ---> final stereo mix
| | |
| | |
<

Tape In <

| |
|
Channel 2 ----> Desk----> Tape out ---> DAW ---> final stereo mix
| |
| |
<

Tape In <

|
etc.

So would you mix down to the same channel then? Ie. DAW replays track1, i receive it back on tape in for channel 1.. I pan left, and then send it back out on tape out 1 again to the DAW...
And do you need to use busses for this? Most soundscards would generally have a lot less channels than the desks.. do you still use the tape in/out routing method, but from busses rather than specific channels..

Thanks for the help.. I think I will try and track down a routing tutorial or something.

Welease · 08-01-2010 2:52pm

ok I've just dived down the back of my mixer, and the first 6 channels (but only those) have channel inserts (send and return on same cable). Could these be used?

And if so, I assume I would need to stop recording over firewire and purchase a soundcard (the mixer currently acts as the soundcard over the f/w interface) so i could connect the inserts to the PC...

Are am I even more confused now?

PaulBrewer · 08-01-2010 3:01pm

There are also the combined Consoles/Daw control like the SSL Duality, AWS900+ and Matrix which gives you all ( or some) of the 'olde skool' analogue routing/control but at the flick of a switch becomes a Daw control.

So in a commercial setup one can work anyway you want.

As an entirely 'analogue' way where your DAW works as Tape Machine (Radar for example)

Or using the Daw capabilities entirely with the console being run as a Summing mixer and Daw control .

Or any combination of both !

Tis the future I believe ... SSL will have something New at Frankfurt that represents this idea.:eek:

Aridstarling · 08-01-2010 3:03pm

I think you have it there, I think.

Well it depends on your interface really, something like the motu 24i/o is used a bit I believe. Its just 24 line ins and outs, that's it. Pretty much made for this application really.

The inserts might work, as you said though, you would need a different soundcard. You'd just have to set the gain with the trim and use the faders to monitor. For the final mix I'd imagine you could just take the main stereo out of the mixer and run it to a stereo track on your DAW and you could mix with the faders. Might work.

Yeah, thats the best option Paul. Lots of cash needed though.

madtheory · 08-01-2010 3:12pm

Ooh, great, let's have a big argument about analogue summing! I haven't had one in a while. How much do you charge?

Welease · 08-01-2010 3:19pm

ok thanks guys, appreciate (as always) the help.. sounds like my setup doesn't really lend itself to that type of workflow, without some major changes.

If the lottery comes up.. I'll give ya a shout Paul

tweeky · 08-01-2010 3:28pm

You will at least need a desk such as the Mackie 24/8/2 or Soundcraft Ghost to do what you want. These desks have dedicated "tape returns" which can be monitored during tracking. You can cobble it together with your desk but it will be awkward but not impossible. These desks can be bought quite reasonably on the secondhand market and are quite bulletproof.
Put your faders in a straight line at 0db and control with your mouse or wing it manually "old skool". Recalls are a pain.

Welease · 08-01-2010 3:39pm

tweeky wrote: »

You will at least need a desk such as the Mackie 24/8/2 or Soundcraft Ghost to do what you want. These desks have dedicated "tape returns" which can be monitored during tracking. You can cobble it together with your desk but it will be awkward but not impossible. These desks can be bought quite reasonably on the secondhand market and are quite bulletproof.
Put your faders in a straight line at 0db and control with your mouse or wing it manually "old skool". Recalls are a pain.

Yeah i think it was a Ghost on adverts.ie with a meter bridge that got me thinking, how do they get the signal returned in order to make the meters effective.

tweeky · 08-01-2010 4:05pm

The outputs from your soundcard should go to the "tape returns" and the bus or group outs from the desk to your card inputs. You can also come out of the "direct outputs" from each individual channel if you have a larger setup.

PaulBrewer · 08-01-2010 7:03pm

tweeky wrote: »

You will at least need a desk such as the Mackie 24/8/2 or Soundcraft Ghost to do what you want. These desks have dedicated "tape returns" which can be monitored during tracking. You can cobble it together with your desk but it will be awkward but not impossible. These desks can be bought quite reasonably on the secondhand market and are quite bulletproof.
Put your faders in a straight line at 0db and control with your mouse or wing it manually "old skool". Recalls are a pain.

So you're just using the desk for ANALOGUE SUMMING ?

tweeky · 08-01-2010 9:34pm

tweeky wrote: »

Put your faders in a straight line at 0db and control with your mouse or wing it manually "old skool".

The choice is the OP for either analogue summing with DAW automation or "grab a fader" old school Lanois style! The only downside to the two desks mentioned is the lack of an accurate recall, which can be a pain.

Individual Track control into DAW's?

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