Salt on roads etc

InReality

Kinda silly question but is does anyone know if the salt & grit for the roads is a perishable commodity ?

I'm just wondering if there is any practical reason we don't keep say a stockpile of 20 normal years worth of it so we would never run out in years which are worse than expected ?

Victor

Both are mined / quarried. The only limit are the amounts you can buy or store. We are probably going through a few thousand tonnes a day at the moment.

markpb

DCC said in a news story today:

Irish Times wrote:

Over the past few weeks, the (Dublin City) council used some 1,000 tonnes of salt which is more than double used during most winters.

That's just salt btw, not salt and grit.

Sponge Bob

There was a load of ranting on the radio today about a bottle bank in Galway that is inaccessible ( by car .....you could walk 150m from the car ......) because the council have blocked it off with rocks.

No mention of the 20 tons plus of salt the ranters now can't get their hands on at the bottlebank

WindSock

InReality wrote: »

Kinda silly question but is does anyone know if the salt & grit for the roads is a perishable commodity ?

I'm just wondering if there is any practical reason we don't keep say a stockpile of 20 normal years worth of it so we would never run out in years which are worse than expected ?

Thats what I was thinking before. Surely there is a large old warehouse somewhere, where piles of it can be kept dry.

Alun

markpb wrote: »

DCC said in a news story today:


That's just salt btw, not salt and grit.

The stuff that's used on roads is a mixture of both, or rather it's mined rock salt which consists (who'd believe it) of a mixture of rock and salt together. If the stuff was going for processing, they'd just dissolve the salt out of it and then filter and re-crystallize it, but for road use they just crush it up so you get the salty gritty mixture you see being used on roads.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7871816.stm

As for stockpiling it and keeping it for long periods, remember that salt is hygroscopic, i.e. it attracts and absorbs water out of the atmosphere. I'd imagine that after a while either a lot of salt gets leeched out of it by that process making it less useful, and or it'd just cake up into a big solid lump, although they do add some anti-caking agents.

foggy_lad

InReality wrote: »

Kinda silly question but is does anyone know if the salt & grit for the roads is a perishable commodity ?

I'm just wondering if there is any practical reason we don't keep say a stockpile of 20 normal years worth of it so we would never run out in years which are worse than expected ?

sand is just as effective as the more expensive salt/grit from spain apparenly but does leave the roads quite messy after and does not rust the underside of your car!

iMax

Why the hell aren't they using sand anyway. We've thousands of tonnes of the stuff all around (literally) the country.

slimjimmc

foggy_lad wrote: »

sand is just as effective as the more expensive salt/grit from spain apparenly but does leave the roads quite messy after and does not rust the underside of your car!

iMax wrote: »

Why the hell aren't they using sand anyway. We've thousands of tonnes of the stuff all around (literally) the country.

Sand doesn't melt ice, salt does. However salt is only effective down to about -9C after which sand is a better choice.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/road-salt.htm
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/a/aa120703a.htm

hardCopy

Is it just my imagination or are the council (Dublin) just using salt rather than salt+grit or rocksalt? When I walked in this morning the quays seemed to have slightly less ice but the surface was anything but gritty

I usually go to Boston every winter and you can clearly see the grit on the surface of the ice, I couldn't see anything of the sort this morning in the city centre

poochiem

tens of thousands of tonnes of grit lying in the quarries but govt not interested. no sign of dempsey he's abroad, willy o'dea trying to blame local councils got caught out lying on rte, pretty hilarious ...except for the people stranded around the country and those in hospital.

101sean

It will be just rocksalt, depends where it comes from, some is nearly straight salt, other may have more rock impurities in it which gives the grtiness as Alun explained above. It's meant to melt the ice, not give grip.

Alun

101sean wrote: »

It will be just rocksalt, depends where it comes from, some is nearly straight salt, other may have more rock impurities in it which gives the grtiness as Alun explained above. It's meant to melt the ice, not give grip.

Well, it works both ways, salt to lower the melting point of the snow/ice, and grit to give some grip. The piles of stuff in the quarries alluded to is probably gravel, not the same thing at all ... bigger grains and smoother, whereas the stuff in rock salt is sharp and crumbly.

jos28

We apparently grind down millions of recycled glass bottles to use in road construction. Could this be used to grit our roads ? Plenty of empty bottles lying around after Christmas.

hick

that's mixed in with tar to make it safe, crushed glass in very dangerous especially from a breathing point of view if it gets into the lungs,

This kind of weather happens once in 30 years, we've used a years worth of salt and grit in 1 week, People need to understand YOU CAN'T PLAN FOR THIS

If you stock pilled emergency amounts for emergencies that didn't happen you would have people up in arms about the waste of money, when we get hit with a climate event not normal to our environment, they get slandered for not being ready.

foggy_lad

hick wrote: »

This kind of weather happens once in 30 years, we've used a years worth of salt and grit in 1 week, People need to understand YOU CAN'T PLAN FOR THIS

If you stock pilled emergency amounts for emergencies that didn't happen you would have people up in arms about the waste of money, when we get hit with a climate event not normal to our environment, they get slandered for not being ready.

this was forcast from as far back as two weeks ago yet councils NRA and government fell asleep on the perks of power and neglected to place orders for extra salt/grit and now we are left with picking up the peices and a long wait to get more grit/salt all the way from spain! is the minister for transport in spain sourcing more salt/grit??

sack the inpompetant fools!

dowlingm

Here in Ontario we mostly use salt but it's killer on water runoff and for rusting cars. When snow is cleared into piles the area after it melts looks like someone poured acid there. Sugar beet liquor has been tried but it's more expensive - it's good for using on bridges etc. where corrosion is a concern and supposedly works at lower temps than straight chlorides.

cargo

dowlingm wrote: »

Here in Ontario we mostly use salt but it's killer on water runoff and for rusting cars. When snow is cleared into piles the area after it melts looks like someone poured acid there. Sugar beet liquor has been tried but it's more expensive - it's good for using on bridges etc. where corrosion is a concern and supposedly works at lower temps than straight chlorides.

interesting about the sugar beet liquor. I presume it's the ethanol / alcohol content produced by the process. Most likely the reason we hear them on the radio suggesting vodka to clear your path if your feeling flush with cash. Think i'd rather drink he vodka and wait for it to thaw

cargo

foggy_lad wrote: »

this was forcast from as far back as two weeks ago yet councils NRA and government fell asleep on the perks of power and neglected to place orders for extra salt/grit and now we are left with picking up the peices and a long wait to get more grit/salt all the way from spain! is the minister for transport in spain sourcing more salt/grit??

sack the inpompetant fools!

So it's the governments job to order salt now as well is it? The councils / nra etc are all employed and paid good money to carry out these functions. If they need more help they should then go to the government and look for additional help / resources.

Capt'n Midnight

Up in Norn Iron they are producing a half a million tonnes of it a year.

Redsoxfan

Did anyone hear the guy from the NRA on Morning Ireland saying that sand etc. was as good as useless for treating roads and that councils etc. were only using salt? Unless I was mistaken (I'm no geologist), I was sure that it was sand/sandlike substance that was being spread on the M50 on Tuesday afternoon (it was a brown/reddish colour).

Thoie

Some cantons in Switzerland spread slurry on the roads - the ammonia melts the ice.

Given that this country is full of bullsh**, and the farmers are already having problems with slurry storage (the spreading date isn't until the 16th I think), any reason why the council couldn't allow the farmers to spread some slurry on back roads?

hick

yes and we get a lot of our requirement from up North, but they actually produce only about 1,000 tonnes a day, we need 20,000 over the next week, so do the maths. Not only that, but they are in County Antrim, so given they are part of the UK who are 3 times the landmass of Ireland, have 12 times the population and a GDP of 2.6 trillion as compared to our 282 billion, I think I know who has the upper hand when it comes to orders for salt from Antrim.

As I said in my earlier post, if we spent 10million over the past 6 months stock piling salt for a winter that could happen, there would of been people on the streets and on Joe Duffy screaming why were we doing this when we can't give the cervical cancer jab to young girls!

And to anyone who suggests this was forecast, weather is based on historical trends and data, we can give a semi accurate forecast up to 10 days MAX, we didn't have time to prepare for this, you would of need months of notice to prepare. We are now past what we saw in 1982 and the last freeze like this was prior to the 1900's.
And you can't use grit on ice as within an hour of applying it, it's thrown off the road by cars!

That's all for now:D

Polar101

Sand is great for footpaths also. The problem with sand obviously is that it needs to be cleared away after the winter period is over. This creates a lot of dust - that problem can be lessened by water (i.e. wash the streets instead of "brushing"), but that's still a lot of work.

101sean

it was a brown/reddish colour

That's the usual colour for most unrefined rock salt.

Redsoxfan

101sean wrote: »

That's the usual colour for most unrefined rock salt.

Really? There you go, you learn something new everyday!

Capt'n Midnight

hick wrote: »

This kind of weather happens once in 30 years, we've used a years worth of salt and grit in 1 week, People need to understand YOU CAN'T PLAN FOR THIS

Considering we are getting 30 / 50 /100 year weather extremes every few years (floods , snow storms etc. ) it's unfair to say it will only happen every 30 years.



Also even if it happens once every 30 years there is no guarantee that it won't happen again in March


The problem is the lack of emergency response. In the last big snow the excavators from Tara mines were used to clear the roads up around Navan, but only after it took several days to sort out the insurance. It's the little details like that that that need planning.

Victor

hick wrote: »

we've used a years worth of salt and grit in 1 week, People need to understand YOU CAN'T PLAN FOR THIS

But typically, we only get 1-3 weeks of this per year. Its not a year's supply, its 1-3 weeks supply.

Empire o de Sun

The footpaths should be cleared though.

If you live in other countries you are required by law to remove snow and ice from the pootpath infront of your house and you are liable if someone slips of falls. This should be the case here. If the footpath was cleared after a snow shower then it wouldn't get the chance to turn into thick ice and cos more problem and make it more difficult to remove.

I've only seen a handfull of houses that have cleaned there footpaths, and very few shops. My local shope it surrounded by a thick sheet of ice. Are they trying to discourage customers by not cleaning it.

Countries like Denmark and Germany have this law and there are more used to cold weather. It is very cost effective and if you wanted the city to clear all the footpaths it would cos a fortune.

Also Winter Tyres are required by law in many countries for the winter months. Maybe we should have this for Dec and Jan, Winter Tyres look like normal tyres except they have a softer compound (rubber) and thus can grip a lower temperatures. They also heat up faster (giving more grip). Whereas normal tyres just go hard in cold temperatures and give no grip.

Maybe the RSA should have a TV add on stand-by for cold weather giving drivers tips on how to drive in icy conditions and on snow etc. Use a high gear, not to rev the engine etc. Cos I see so many people reving the ***k out of their engines and getting nowhere, and it is so dangerous cos if they hit an ice free patch their car will take off, literally.

Empire o de Sun

Also, we do get cold weather every 5 to ten years for atleast a week, it might not snow but it is below freezing for atleast a week of two.

If 1981/2 was the last time we had this then the next was way overdue. So by 2035 will we be prepared for the next, or will those hover cars have arrived by then :rolleyes:.

We have bad snow 9 years ago, and I remember in 95 or 96 two weeks of below freezing temperatures but no snow, well in Dublin atleast.

InReality

The frequency of of this sort event is a fair point , but its a not really a clincher in the debate that gormley , and the dublin country manager seem to think it is.

According to him normal usage is 500 tonnes in dublin over 6 months , and they keep a stockpile of 1300.
How much it would cost to up that to 5k or 10k ?
The real problem is that when/if we run short , naturally the whole area around us & europe will also be running short. Thats the crucial point.

Given the cost and disruption caused by not being able to ice the roads I think its a fair argument to make that any cost, even up to say 10 million , should be spent to have such a stockpile ready , and to have a more aggressive policy on using it .

If local authorities can't manage it / budget it properly than that should be fixed somehow too.
As for the practical point of storage , which was my interest in starting the thread ,
Maybe it would be possible to get the salt pre-packed in large plastic bags , like cement etc , so it would not deteriorate ?
Or perhaps other counteries store larger stockpiles so we could do whatever they do to store it .
Finally if the politicans do get critized for such a stockpile , they can
a) reasonably point out the reasons for it
and/or
b) ignore any critisim.
I'm sure they will be able to handle it.

Del2005

Empire o de Sun wrote: »

Maybe the RSA should have a TV add on stand-by for cold weather giving drivers tips on how to drive in icy conditions and on snow etc. Use a high gear, not to rev the engine etc. Cos I see so many people reving the ***k out of their engines and getting nowhere, and it is so dangerous cos if they hit an ice free patch their car will take off, literally.

The RSA don't do adds on how to drive in normal conditions, what makes you think they could do ads for this. Every radio and TV station is telling people how to drive.

It's simple. Slowly in a high gear leaving plenty of room. The amount of people driving 2-3 cars lengths behind other cars is crazy

InReality wrote: »

The frequency of this sort event is a fair point , but its a not really a clincher in the debate that gormley , and the dublin country manager seem to think it is.

According to him normal usage is 500 tonnes in dublin over 6 months , and they keep a stockpile of 1300.
How much it would cost to up that to 5k or 10k ?
The real problem is that when/if we run short , naturally the whole area around us & europe will also be running short. Thats the crucial point.

Given the cost and disruption caused by not being able to ice the roads I think its a fair argument to make that any cost, even up to say 10 million , should be spent to have such a stockpile ready , and to have a more aggressive policy on using it .

If local authorities can't manage it / budget it properly than that should be fixed somehow too.
As for the practical point of storage , which was my interest in starting the thread ,
Maybe it would be possible to get the salt pre-packed in large plastic bags , like cement etc , so it would not deteriorate ?
Or perhaps other counteries store larger stockpiles so we could do whatever they do to store it .
Finally if the politicans do get critized for such a stockpile , they can
a) reasonably point out the reasons for it
and/or
b) ignore any critisim.
I'm sure they will be able to handle it.

What would you rather. A+E open or a mountain of salt that will go off and may never be used? There is only a certain amount of money available.

We aren't the only country affected. From looking at BBC the UK, Holland and Germany are now having problems. So a country that rarely gets this bad isn't doing to badly.

douglashyde

Only one poster has said it so far:

Salt is perishable – they need to put anti caking on the salt to stop it from absorbing water!

Also, to correct some people – grit and sand are not the same as salt.

Salt melts the ice – but only down to a certain temp.

Grit is used to give cars grip – however in heavy traffic is only effective for 1 -1.5 hrs. – Also when the ice is gone, your left with tiny pebbles on the road, which can become airborne.
- Grit also gets stuck in tyres of cars.

Sand is cheap and plentiful, however IT DOES NOT melt ice and washes away quite quick.

InReality

Del2005 wrote: »

What would you rather. A+E open or a mountain of salt that will go off and may never be used? There is only a certain amount of money available.

We aren't the only country affected. From looking at BBC the UK, Holland and Germany are now having problems. So a country that rarely gets this bad isn't doing to badly.

I'd spend up to 10 million on salt that will go off and may never be used.
Given a HSE overall budget of 15 billion we should be able to afford that.

I don't know if UK etc are being affected as much by incompetence as we are.

Del2005

InReality wrote: »

I'd spend up to 10 million on salt that will go off and may never be used.
Given a HSE overall budget of 15 billion we should be able to afford that.

I don't know if UK etc are being affected as much by incompetence as we are.

So you'd spend €10 million on salt, throw another 2 onto it and you'll save every girl in the country from cancer... I know where I'd rather spend €12 million

If you call being hit with the longest cold spell in 20+ years incompetence then yes the UK and mainland Europe are as incompetent as us.