So we ran outta money...

mattfender

...on our EP recording during the mixing stage.

Would it be a good decision to ask can we just take the files home with us and mix the EP ourselves...since two of us are sound engineers?

Would we be entitled to take the protools session files too...just to make it a little easier for us and save time? Or would that be just stealing the engineers work?

And another thing...this guy had some pretty nice plugins...

Mindfeck

Neurojazz

Well, you could ask them for the session files, but you have no right to them (as that is their hard work there) - they may just hold onto them until you are finished on the project in case of a disaster and you need backups.

As for the plugins, you'd better get a credit card ready - if the session had certain plugins to make it come together then you'd need to get those to keep it together... so probably cheaper to ask them to wrap it up faster for the cost of a plugin or 2.

PaulBrewer

Once you've paid for them they're yours I'd have said . The studio has no reason not to give them to you.

Mixing really is the make or break point in a project but if it's your only option then do it.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

you paid for the wavs and the session project minus the plugins etc , so they have no reason not to give them to you

but they can delete them once you have them.

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

you paid for the wavs and the session project minus the plugins etc , so they have no reason not to give them to you

but they can delete them once you have them.

.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

.

i just like seeing you say it ....

Seziertisch

Being sound engineers is all well and good, but if you don't have the equipment/room/plug-ins to mix (nor possibly the experience) twould be an idea to wait til ye have the money. Doing it one song at a time over the space of a few months shouldn't be that difficult. Also, to get the ball rolling for yourselves you only need one song (or maybe a couple) done properly.

trackmixstudio

"So we ran outta money..."
I was expecting a post about the economy.
You own the files if you are paid up to date and don't owe the studio money.
Make sure you get either consolidated wavs or the PT session files.
The "audio files" folder would require you to line up all the punch ins which is your worst nightmare!
Why not upload the wavs or session for one of the songs and post it.
That way some of the guys here could mix it and you would get at least one song finished and it would give people good practice.

studiorat

Tis the Job of the Producer to make sure that the project gets finished within the financial and time constraints.

Had you gone into the studio with a clear idea of what needed to be done someone should have been responsible for pulling the plug on the overdubbing to leave enough time for mixing.

Who is the producer on the session?

How long is it going to take to mix? Surely the studio will let you have a day to finish the mixes?

woodsdenis

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Once you've paid for them they're yours I'd have said . The studio has no reason not to give them to you.

Mixing really is the make or break point in a project but if it's your only option then do it.

TBH I agree, once you have paid you should get the session files etc. Only
the superstar mixers/producers will delete their plugins and automation etc. They have a point as it is possibly their sound and their presets. I dont think anyone here falls into that category really.

PMI

O No you used that "im a sound engineer line" is that a certificate from a college type one or a free in frosties box badge one ??? kidding

PaulBrewer

PMI wrote: »

O No you used that "im a sound engineer line" is that a certificate from a college type one or a free in frosties box badge one ??? kidding

I let it pass ....;)

madtheory

Maybe I'm missing something here, but this seems odd. In the old days when it was tape, the multitracks belonged to the studio unless purchased by the artist. This was not normally included in the price of the session. Most places just charged the cost of the tape stock though. If it was me, I'd have to charge something for the time it takes to make the backups to disc for you to take away. As I see it, you have paid for the service of mixing, but not for the session files. If the project concluded in the normal way, you would walk away with stereo mixes, not the session files. To my mind there would have to be a nominal charge for you to walk away with those.

The other thing is that an over run of time is normal enough at mix stage, and there is always some leeway for mix revisions, (unless the client is unreasonable, which is rare). I've often given an extra few hours at a later date to get the mixes finished. It's good for business!

But ya, studiorat is dead right- if nothing else, this shows the value of having a producer!

woodsdenis

madtheory wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something here, but this seems odd. In the old days when it was tape, the multitracks belonged to the studio unless purchased by the artist. This was not normally included in the price of the session. Most places just charged the cost of the tape stock though. If it was me, I'd have to charge something for the time it takes to make the backups to disc for you to take away. As I see it, you have paid for the service of mixing, but not for the session files. If the project concluded in the normal way, you would walk away with stereo mixes, not the session files. To my mind there would have to be a nominal charge for you to walk away with those.

The other thing is that an over run of time is normal enough at mix stage, and there is always some leeway for mix revisions, (unless the client is unreasonable, which is rare). I've often given an extra few hours at a later date to get the mixes finished. It's good for business!

But ya, studiorat is dead right- if nothing else, this shows the value of having a producer!

I always was charged for and owned my own multitracks, The studios very kindly stored them for me and many others. The only time there was a "studio" multi was for demos which could be wiped.

Record companies always owned the multis aswell.

Studiorat could give you the low down on that.

PaulBrewer

madtheory wrote: »

Maybe I'm missing something here, but this seems odd. In the old days when it was tape, the multitracks belonged to the studio unless purchased by the artist. This was not normally included in the price of the session. Most places just charged the cost of the tape stock though. If it was me, I'd have to charge something for the time it takes to make the backups to disc for you to take away. As I see it, you have paid for the service of mixing, but not for the session files. If the project concluded in the normal way, you would walk away with stereo mixes, not the session files. To my mind there would have to be a nominal charge for you to walk away with those.

The other thing is that an over run of time is normal enough at mix stage, and there is always some leeway for mix revisions, (unless the client is unreasonable, which is rare). I've often given an extra few hours at a later date to get the mixes finished. It's good for business!

But ya, studiorat is dead right- if nothing else, this shows the value of having a producer!

That's daft - there's no physical product involved unlike the tape days.

It's their performance. Why would there be a charge unless a very nominal one (and agreed before the session began) for the time to clone the files to a new drive ?

I think anyone being charged for their files would feel , rightly, hard done by.

' So I've paid for studio time and 'must' complete a project here'

Bollocqes I say.

bloodwolf

Ok so you paid for what as been done this far there for the session files are your property legally you can claim them as long as you have paid for the work thus far infact its illegal for the engineer to keep a copy of the pt session,dont let any goon tell you other wise.

PaulBrewer

bloodwolf wrote: »

Ok so you paid for what as been done this far there for the session files are your property legally you can claim them as long as you have paid for the work thus far infact its illegal for the engineer to keep a copy of the pt session,dont let any goon tell you other wise.

Good Point .... terrible syntax, though ..

PaulBrewer

On a wider point - How and why did you 'run out of money' ?

mattfender

PMI wrote: »

O No you used that "im a sound engineer line" is that a certificate from a college type one or a free in frosties box badge one ??? kidding

Oi! Few years experience under the belt. Im not an engineer so?:(

PaulBrewer wrote:

On a wider point - How and why did you 'run out of money' ?

Lack of work hours!

Tis a tough decision! Maybe we should just wait until we do get paid. We've one song mixed (but we're not too happy with it...) but there's another 4 to go

PaulBrewer

mattfender wrote: »

Oi! Few years experience under the belt. Im not an engineer so?:(

what sort of experience ?

mattfender

haha. frosties badge and 2 year diploma in Music Production and gigs all around town like Village, Whelans, some theatre in northside i forget the name of... and mixed tv shows.

Yeah im more of a live engineer I guess... :o my bandmate has more studio experience anyway

PaulBrewer

mattfender wrote: »

2 year diploma in Music Production

Ah right ... so you can wind leads and put up (Non-Boom) mic stands so ? Cool ...;)

mattfender

quiet you.

i challenge you...

PaulBrewer

mattfender wrote: »

quiet you.

i challenge you...

:eek:

mattfender

scared?:cool:

PaulBrewer

Messin aside -

Why did you run out of money ?

Didn't plan well enough, yez were shyt, studio/engineer/producer was shyt ? Wha ?

PaulBrewer

mattfender wrote: »

scared?:cool:

Unless it's a Hear 20kHz competition I'll probably win !

mattfender

well our drummer left. two of us are on the scratcher...and I have a job with weird hours and monthly pay.

We pretty much paid for each session whenever we got money, but none of us are earning anything at the mo.

We also wouldn't mind getting the practice in mixing our own EP. Its a big risk but you never know

I can hear 20khz...

PaulBrewer

mattfender wrote: »

w

I can hear 20khz...

It's no risk really. If you can't get a good mix , don't put it out ....


You win.

mattfender

true.

Nah I cant really hear it. Such a shame

madtheory

madtheory wrote: »

To my mind there would have to be a nominal charge for you to walk away with those.

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Why would there be a charge unless a very nominal one (and agreed before the session began) for the time to clone the

I will change my sig to "Like I feckin said"

PaulBrewer

madtheory wrote: »

I will change my sig to "Like I feckin said"

You were implying it was the norm and comparing it to tape ! It's a bleedin computer file fer fecks sake ...

PMI

I would just hand session files over but I also create a folder on another DVD with audio files all the same length so people can jump between logic/tools/ and cub.... opps almost said it etc...

I then back it up to DVD and keep it in a metal case, filed for when they call in a panic 2 years later

Its more effort up front but at least it saves you time later on and space on drive

you never run out of money on this stuff it will always be a work in progress....

madtheory

PaulBrewer wrote: »

You were implying it was the norm and comparing it to tape !

No, I was saying what it used to be like. You just misunderstood, that's different from implication. I was surprised that everyone said the multi is included in the session fee. Anyway, I think we agree that it's not free because there is some time, care and materials involved?

PaulBrewer wrote: »

It's a bleedin computer file fer fecks sake ...

It depends on how you look at it. In another way, it's a hard drive. Here's an example- early last year I spoke to an acquaintance who records there, and he told me Abbey Road sell you hard drives, or charge you to bring in your own. They'd rather you bought one from them so that they can guarantee reliability and freedom from viruses, and make money... So one way or another, at Abbey Road, to get the multi, you have to pay for a HD.

PaulBrewer

madtheory wrote: »

No, I was saying what it used to be like. You just misunderstood, that's different from implication. I was surprised that everyone said the multi is included in the session fee. Anyway, I think we agree that it's not free because there is some time, care and materials involved?

It depends on how you look at it. In another way, it's a hard drive. Here's an example- early last year I spoke to an acquaintance who records there, and he told me Abbey Road sell you hard drives, or charge you to bring in your own. They'd rather you bought one from them so that they can guarantee reliability and freedom from viruses, and make money... So one way or another, at Abbey Road, to get the multi, you have to pay for a HD.

Ah right , 'my bad' as the kids do be sayin' ...

At Abbey Road and Air ya can't bring in your own protools but must hire theirs - with different interface choice, plugins etc.

But as you say, if there's a problem they sort it.

Welease

Does it not simply come down to a matter of what you contracted them to do and supply?

You may believe you are entitled to X, but if that's not part of the contract with that company (and it can vary from company to company), then what you believe isn't probably worth ****......

Never assume anything, and if in doubt ask.. You are paying money for a service, don't be afraid to ask specifics on what that service entails.

studiorat

Another reason why you should have your own hard-drive. A reel of tape was what? €170 for 15 minutes, half an hour at 15ips.

A top of the range hard drive has always been about €300 or so. Given the amount for information you can get on it it's a huge saving. Yet artists seem either unaware of the need to have one or reluctant to buy one.

Like I've said time and time again. Buy cheap, buy twice. If the session was on your own drive, you just take that with you.

Dravokivich

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Ah right ... so you can wind leads and put up (Non-Boom) mic stands so ? Cool ...;)

hah, i was able to do that before getting into college!

- Drav!

PaulBrewer

Dravokivich wrote: »

hah, i was able to do that before getting into college!

- Drav!

Could you still do it after ?

mattfender

Dravokivich wrote: »

hah, i was able to do that before getting into college!

- Drav!

I could do it before primary school!

And I didnt know non boom mic stands existed till boyzone were on the telly:pac:

bloodwolf

either way yes you can insist they bring a drive and include a clause in the contract, that failure to bring one means that you must purchase a hard drive off the studio.But you must tell them this when they book the session and include it on any advertisements otherwise they will just consider it a hidden charge, and you run the risk of loosing business and getting a bad rep.Alot of places will store the session file and a bounce of the finished mix for a week afterwards, then delete it cos you are a business/recording studio and that computer is your main work station.However you have no legal claim or right to keep the session file/multi's any digital content belongs to the artist.Personally if you dont go by this Id consider you a con man.Like saying time to copy files you should allow for a half hour at the end of the session for the bounce and such and doing a save copy in dose not take alot of time.

Dravokivich

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Could you still do it after ?

Just barely :P

haha

- Drav!

Edit:

Anyhooo on topic...

I think it's the raw recordings / actual audio takes and any mixes done within the studio the "artiste" should be entitled too, but has to be agreed beforehand... If i was working a studio, wouldn't give the session / project file itself from DAW software. t'is like a magician showing how the trick is performed...

bloodwolf

to the above post,not really a magic trick or secret I mean its not like they can get the same results applying the same plugs and settings to different songs,always annoys me how some people are so overly protective how they did some thing. the principals of sound are the same .there is no new unique way that a compressor will be used ect.Now that there are so many colleges training people hopefully it will get rid of that attitude and eventually any one without a qualification will be bred out(not that your not qualified)Its one thing to be trained up in a studio its actually a great thing but you need to know how it all works under the hood and the physics of sound.

Welease

bloodwolf wrote: »

Now that there are so many colleges training people hopefully it will get rid of that attitude and eventually any one without a qualification will be bred out(not that your not qualified)Its one thing to be trained up in a studio its actually a great thing but you need to know how it all works under the hood and the physics of sound.

Sorry gonna have to call complete and utter BS on that one... (and I don't even work in the business)..

Qualifications are all well and good but absolutely not and never will be a replacement for hands on experience (and this comes from someone who is highly qualified in my area and has hired lots of people with minimum degree level education). Education will give you a basic understanding of what happens and the physics involved, it will not alone make you great at the job in any industry or arena. Attempting to eliminate non certified people from the business is a sure fire way to remove the innovation and advancement of the art of engineering and replace it with people who can repeat 20 years old processes and facts by heart.

How many people in your class have come up with incredible/advanced/unique usage of technology/mixes/processes that weren't already in use by "uncertified" engineers for the last 3 decades? How many of those graduates would stack up and be equal to the "uncertified" engineers we all know? In short, what has their certification given them?

Sound Engineering is not a regulated industry, nor does it need to be.. Work will be found based on reputation, not on any certification you may have received. If your sh1t work will dry up, if your not you stand a chance of making a living.

(irrespective that the majority of certifications are money making scheme's )

Edit - I meant to add the attitude of not telling everyone how you do your "magic" is part of every business, and won't be bred out by certifications, thats why people pay for their services, noone in their right mind gives away all their competitive advantage.

madtheory

Bloodwolf, I think you're making a lot of assumptions about the legal side. Strictly speaking, if the studio owns the hard drive or any backups, then they own the multitrack unless you buy it from them. That's a phonographic copyright. Nobody enforces that, but there has to be a charge for the multi.

Furthermore, it's best practice to create a mutitrack with virtual instruments rendered and all tracks consolidated so that the files can be loaded into any system without loss of tracks and with correct sync. This has to be verified by playing back, session notes should be added and 3 copies made. Anything less than that is, as you say, a con job and should not be charged for.

So as studiorat recommends, go in with your own HD! much easier.

Dravokivich

bloodwolf wrote: »

to the above post,not really a magic trick or secret I mean its not like they can get the same results applying the same plugs and settings to different songs,always annoys me how some people are so overly protective how they did some thing. the principals of sound are the same .there is no new unique way that a compressor will be used ect.Now that there are so many colleges training people hopefully it will get rid of that attitude and eventually any one without a qualification will be bred out(not that your not qualified)Its one thing to be trained up in a studio its actually a great thing but you need to know how it all works under the hood and the physics of sound.

my point is, that if the client is paying for a recording... they don't get a mix file. they get the recordings... and a stereo of the rough mix while recording...

in regards to your experience / college rant... the posts above were harmless humour... which is nice about this forum because i've noticed in alot of other places, they tend to be swamped with "elitists". Bunch of serious lads here, but easy going at the same time...

most people dont know much about what sound engineering entails, but do get honestly interested in it. This is the position i was in. they all won't have the meduim to go aside and work it up the ranks, which i didnt, coursework provides the back bone, teaching people how to use the gear what has to be done, and common methods.

But in saying that, while in college i had also worked up alot of experience working live gigs with the main sound engineer in Eamon Dorans... that grunt work made me more efficient in college, but through the lessons i had in college, i was able to understand the grunt work better... works hand in hand...

This knowledge helps alot more when you go out to start building up the ranks...

Also... if you think it's so easy to mix, how come there are such exclusive mixers out in the industry both live and studio? Surely there's something they've got? no?

There's a little bit more then adjusting the gain so you can have your fader set to U... running everything through a "make this sound better/louder unit"

I'm also not claiming I'm great at it either... I'm good and know how things work... but not great...

- Drav!

krd

Back to the original point.

I would expect with a recording, especially in this day and age, that you're not tied to a single studio for the whole production.

There's absolutely no reason to not record in several different locations. And to specifically - do the drums here, the guitar there...concentrate on vocals elsewhere.

Plan the sessions, so you only spend money when you absolutely have to. And get in and get out quickly.

A book that I had - that's been borrowed off me and I haven't seen in a long time is confessions of a record producer. The guy who wrote it, is actually a bull****ter. He's not who he makes himself out to be - I can't remember who he is though,,,, but, He has some good stuff on managing recordings and production budgets - not that you should follow him to a T. but you don't need to record everything in a pricey studio - and if you can get good vocals done in someone's bedroom - there you have it.


(Then you get Paul Brewer to fix the mix once you've got everything done - he's been recording stuff since they used to record on magnetised bicycle wheel inner tube)

i57dwun4yb1pt8

actually i think Paul recorded the frist cave man song by carving a groove all round newgrange , which you then played back with a thorn between your teeth .

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

actually i think Paul recorded the frist cave man song by carving a groove all round newgrange , which you then played back with a thorn between your teeth .

You should hear it backwards! ...

mattfender

Cheers for the tips guys. Turned into a great read! I think were gonna go with it...were just gonna have to break it to the engineer softly...