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Buying site with foundations already laid,any risks?

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  • 06-01-2010 11:25pm
    #1
    ravendude
    Registered Users Posts: 585 ✭✭✭


    Hi,

    I'm interested in purchasing a site, which already has the foundations laid.
    My understanding is that this is not totally abnormal, and the reason for laying the foundations would be to retain planning permission.
    Basically, there looks to be foundations and bases of walls, full with stones. The foundation looks to be in place at least a year or two, - if not more now.

    I'm wondering is there any danger that there could be faults that would not be visible to an engineer?
    I saw a construction sign outside a house in the same estate (they're all standalone, self-build type houses) for a contractor who was doing work on subsidence, - i guess this is what has gotten me worried.

    Obviously, if I went any further with this I will get an engineer involved, but would like some idea as to what issues if any there might be.
    Also, should the person selling the site have some sign off/papers from an engineer who would have overseen the laying of the foundations?

    Thanks for any advice...


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    #2
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,317 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    IF there isnt all the required certification for the completed work, walk away.
    Is it strip or raft foundation?

    Having a foundation placed on site wont have any bearing on the planning permission.

    Even getting an engineer to inspect the site and do some paperwork for the site sale is not worth the paper its written on in this case as all important aspects will be hidden.


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    #3
    ravendude
    Registered Users Posts: 585 ✭✭✭ravendude


    Thanks Mick.
    I'm not sure at this point whether its strip or raft, is there any obvious way to tell from looking at it?
    I was told that planning permission lapses after 6 months, if the foundations haven't gone in, - heard this second hand, - so it could be wrong here
    mickdw wrote: »
    Even getting an engineer to inspect the site and do some paperwork for the site sale is not worth the paper its written on in this case as all important aspects will be hidden.
    This is what I feared, -seems a bit risky.
    If (assume for now) the "certification" is there, - would it be safe enough? or can the certification be hit and miss.


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    #4
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 14,547 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    ravendude wrote: »
    Thanks Mick.
    I'm not sure at this point whether its strip or raft, is there any obvious way to tell from looking at it?
    If the foundations are just strips of concrete in trenchs then they are strip foundations. If it is a full slab of concrete over the footprint of the floor then it is a raft foundation.
    ravendude wrote: »
    I was told that planning permission lapses after 6 months, if the foundations haven't gone in, - heard this second hand, - so it could be wrong here
    There is no basis in the Planning Act for this. It could be that this actual planning permission runs out in 6 months, but the house would have to be 'substantially completed' by that time (walls completed). Even at that you would have to make a new application to complete the works from there.
    ravendude wrote: »
    This is what I feared, -seems a bit risky.
    If (assume for now) the "certification" is there, - would it be safe enough? or can the certification be hit and miss.
    The certification should be accompanied by a copy of the certifyers PI Insurance. Any certification is worthless without this.

    IMO, if a site is being bought with just the strips in place and if there is any doubt about it at all, they should come out and start again. The foundations are the most important part of any house, if they are not done right you may not have a house for long.


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    #5
    ravendude
    Registered Users Posts: 585 ✭✭✭ravendude


    Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »
    IMO, if a site is being bought with just the strips in place and if there is any doubt about it at all, they should come out and start again. The foundations are the most important part of any house, if they are not done right you may not have a house for long.

    Thanks Uncle Tom, this is something I had given some thought to as well, - ie. pulling out the foundation thats there, - might be a costly exercise though.....


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    #6
    sas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭sas


    ravendude wrote: »
    Thanks Uncle Tom, this is something I had given some thought to as well, - ie. pulling out the foundation thats there, - might be a costly exercise though.....

    Something I've had experience with recently.

    I had the foundations for a large house (5ft wide strip + rising walls) excavated and removed from site using a local firm in Laois. 2700 inc VAT for the job. Just a guide.

    Another smaller fellow (i.e. local guy with his own JCB...) wanted 4500 cash to excavate it and pile it up on the side of my site. Shop around if it comes down to it.


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    #7
    ravendude
    Registered Users Posts: 585 ✭✭✭ravendude


    sas wrote: »
    Something I've had experience with recently.

    I had the foundations for a large house (5ft wide strip + rising walls) excavated and removed from site using a local firm in Laois. 2700 inc VAT for the job. Just a guide.

    Another smaller fellow (i.e. local guy with his own JCB...) wanted 4500 cash to excavate it and pile it up on the side of my site. Shop around if it comes down to it.

    Thanks sas, thats a fantastic help!!!
    The exercise seems like a pain, but I think it would be money well spent for the piece of mind in the long run.


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    #8
    RKQ
    Registered Users Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭RKQ


    How old is the planning permission on this site and does it have an Occupancy condition?

    Occupancy condition would mean original applicant would have to live in the finished house for 5 years and the permission would be to that person only - ie couldn't be transferred to you - without new permission application.

    Have the foundation tested & inspected by a Structural Engineer - it might not need to be removed.

    Discuss the conditions of permission with your Solicitor.


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    #9
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    sas wrote: »
    Something I've had experience with recently.

    I had the foundations for a large house (5ft wide strip + rising walls) excavated and removed from site using a local firm in Laois. 2700 inc VAT for the job. Just a guide.

    Another smaller fellow (i.e. local guy with his own JCB...) wanted 4500 cash to excavate it and pile it up on the side of my site. Shop around if it comes down to it.

    That's crazy money. I had a 14 ton digger at the ground work of my house a month ago for 5 days, got the bill this week and it came to €1500 inc vat. How long was the guy at your job and why did you have the material removed from the site - could you not have used it as fill around the site?? I'll bet the guy who dug it out sold it on too and made more money on your back.


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    #10
    sas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭sas


    reilig wrote: »
    That's crazy money. I had a 14 ton digger at the ground work of my house a month ago for 5 days, got the bill this week and it came to €1500 inc vat. How long was the guy at your job and why did you have the material removed from the site - could you not have used it as fill around the site?? I'll bet the guy who dug it out sold it on too and made more money on your back.

    I didn't think so. Neither did the architect or engineer or the relations in the trades that I have. Without seeing what was to be removed it's not easy to say how big or small a job it would be. No idea how long they were out there. It was done during a week though.

    Engineer reckoned it wouldn't break up small enough to be suitable for fill. Plus most of the fill I required needed to be washed stone. I have plenty of earth from the excavations previously for whats left.

    I'm sure the OP will be glad to read what you said.


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    #11
    martin46585
    Closed Accounts Posts: 342 ✭✭martin46585


    reilig wrote: »
    That's crazy money. I had a 14 ton digger at the ground work of my house a month ago for 5 days, got the bill this week and it came to €1500 inc vat. How long was the guy at your job and why did you have the material removed from the site - could you not have used it as fill around the site?? I'll bet the guy who dug it out sold it on too and made more money on your back.

    sounds like the difference between a 14 ton machine dancing about digging out sub soil and that of a 200 digger digging up 5ft strips of 35n reinforced concrete, fuel consumption being an obvious concern


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    #12
    ravendude
    Registered Users Posts: 585 ✭✭✭ravendude


    RKQ wrote: »
    How old is the planning permission on this site and does it have an Occupancy condition?

    Occupancy condition would mean original applicant would have to live in the finished house for 5 years and the permission would be to that person only - ie couldn't be transferred to you - without new permission application.

    Have the foundation tested & inspected by a Structural Engineer - it might not need to be removed.

    Discuss the conditions of permission with your Solicitor.

    I don't know the details of the planning at this point, but I'll check about the occupancy conditions, - useful to know thanks.

    What kind of testing/inspection can a Structural engineer do on the foundations? - ie. how comprehensive would it be? - surely a lot of the details (steel etc) would be covered over, - or would they be able to drill holes etc?
    Obviously if the existing foundations were good, it'd be a huge saving, - both in time and money, - and it would be a shame really to be ripping out potentially good foundations just "to be on the safe side".
    One thing that comes to mind, - would it be possible to reuse any of the materials (stone filling, steel) if these foundations were ripped out? any saving here?


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    #13
    ravendude
    Registered Users Posts: 585 ✭✭✭ravendude


    Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »
    IMO, if a site is being bought with just the strips in place and if there is any doubt about it at all, they should come out and start again. The foundations are the most important part of any house, if they are not done right you may not have a house for long.
    Hi Uncle Tom,

    What seems to be there are the base of internal and external walls (maybe one brick/block high), with what would be the flooring area filled with loose stones. Its not possible to see whats underneath (ie. strips/concrete slab).
    I'd nearly be leaning towards oulling it up to be honest.


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    #14
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 14,547 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    So there's a little more there then just foundations. Speak to your solicitor and find out if there is indemnified certification in place for the foundations and works to date, if there is, happy days. If there's not, let the price reflect that.


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    #15
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    martin46585 wrote: »
    sounds like the difference between a 14 ton machine dancing about digging out sub soil and that of a 200 digger digging up 5ft strips of 35n reinforced concrete, fuel consumption being an obvious concern

    I'm sure the guy he got used a rock breaker no matter what size of machine it was on. An hour would do a lot of breaking on foundations. After this, any machine from 10 ton up would load the stuff. I still think he was really overcharged and they guy who did the job for him probably sold on the stuff he removed to make a double profit.


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    #16
    mossfort
    Registered Users Posts: 609 ✭✭✭mossfort


    if it old strip foundations i would be tempted to start fresh as you dont know what thickness of concrete was used in the footings .
    if you are removing it you will hire a 12 or 15 ton track machine with a breaker for around 50 euros per hour plus a few hours hire with a tractor and trailer to take it away. a 20 ton machine would be overkill as its only a strip foundation.
    as for the stuff dug out it would be worthless.


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    #17
    ravendude
    Registered Users Posts: 585 ✭✭✭ravendude


    mossfort wrote: »
    if it old strip foundations i would be tempted to start fresh as you dont know what thickness of concrete was used in the footings .
    if you are removing it you will hire a 12 or 15 ton track machine with a breaker for around 50 euros per hour plus a few hours hire with a tractor and trailer to take it away. a 20 ton machine would be overkill as its only a strip foundation.
    as for the stuff dug out it would be worthless.

    Thanks mossfort, - we're definitely leaning towards just pulling them up and being done with it.Reckon we'd sleep a little better at night


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