quick driving in snow question

John Mason

okay had a nightmare coming from work

was starting off in 2nd gear, didnt use the accelator, kept the gears as high as possible.

now it took me 3 hours to drive 6 miles everytime i had to stop for any lenght of time or on a hill, i had problems moving off , tyres couldnt get any grip and wheels spinning

what should i do in this situation ? at one point a man (thank you) had to push me

i have just been pushing the accelerator, i am sure this in not the correct thing to do

why isnt all of this part of the driving test - all my snow driving information, has come from here

any help would be great

thanks

IB

traco

I always start in 1st, real low revs (almost stalling) and just try to get the car moving forward. You need to rotate the drive wheels as slowly as possible so they can grip.

Starting in 2nd can give you more wheel spin once you break traction as the gearing is higher and once traction is lost (wheels spinning) you are better stopping and starting again rather than carrying on. Once car is moving shift up and keep the revs low.

Basically don't allow the wheels to spin if at all possible, 2nd /3rd at lows better when you are moving and have grip as the engine has less torque.

Slow, smooth and gentle is the way

Alanstrainor

You're just not going to be able to drive in all conditions. If your wheels were spinning, no matter how lightly you were touching the accelerator, there really isn't much you can do. Some cars are better than others, hence the man behind you being able to move.

John Mason

traco wrote: »

I always start in 1st, real low revs (almost stalling) and just try to get the car moving forward. You need to rotate the drive wheels as slowly as possible so they can grip.

Now is the complete opposite to what i was told but i will do that if it happens again

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Some cars are better than others, hence the man behind you being able to move.

the man who pushed me had crashed his van and was hanging around on the road, so gave me a push

TestTransmission

If its that bad and I really have to get somewhere,I'd be walking or just buy a tractor.

copacetic

traco wrote: »

I always start in 1st, real low revs (almost stalling) and just try to get the car moving forward. You need to rotate the drive wheels as slowly as possible so they can grip.

Starting in 2nd can give you more wheel spin once you break traction as the gearing is higher and once traction is lost (wheels spinning) you are better stopping and starting again rather than carrying on. Once car is moving shift up and keep the revs low.

Basically don't allow the wheels to spin if at all possible, 2nd /3rd at lows better when you are moving and have grip as the engine has less torque.

Slow, smooth and gentle is the way

thats totally wrong, you are right with the slow, smooth the gentle, but staying in 2nd or 3rd when starting is the way too go.

irishbird wrote: »

Now is the complete opposite to what i was told but i will do that if it happens again

sounds like you already had good advice, stick with it.

traco

I think too much emphasis is put on the high gear start. If you are spinning in 2nd then its not working so try 1st. I have never had any problem with 1st and find it much simpler to feed in and feather the power. I have just been on some horrible back roads around Naas in the last few hours and not had any problems.

To my knowledge the reasons people say "high gears" is to reduce torque available to wheels but you should be able to control power with your clutch. Another reason would be to reduce risk of loss of traction on a subseqent gear change for 1st to 2nd if done abrubtly.

I think its worth a shot, the reason you spin is because you have broken traction. Once you loose grip its very hard to regain it so its better to prevent losing it in the first place. Also make sure your wheels are point straight if at all possible as if you are turning you have a much greater drag load from the other wheels meaning more effort required to get moving.

Its all down to physics - once the wheels spin the game is up, it only takes a fraction of too much wheel rotation speed to loose grip so teh slower you feed in the power the better chance you have of keeping grip.

Also lower your window and try and watch your wheels to see what is happening.

itarumaa

I start at 1st gear, really smooth with clutch, if I get any wheelspin I change to second, if still wheelspin then third gear, if still wheelspin then even fourth gear, depends of course about the car.

Boots2006

+1, using first gear got me home tonight, really bad ice from the Port Tunnel to just past the airport turnoff.

Tried to pull away in 2nd, with NO accelerator (just trying to lift the clutch) ... rear wheels spinning, back of car going sideways, not going forward at all.

Did the same in first, again NO accelerator, and got going. Even tipping the accelerator put the back end out.

... and all this was on a flat bit of road :eek:

Eglinton

1st gear with plenty of clutch until you get moving but very very slowly.

Took me about 2.5 hours to drive 6 miles home this evening. I'm a patient person so I didn't really mind at all. I did however observe some appalling driving. Blocking yellow boxes, pulling out in lanes, blocking roundabout entrances/exits, revving the hell out of tyres and going nowhere.

There's a moderately steep hill in Milltown Dublin 6. The traffic was backed up for several miles behind it. I couldn't figure out why until I got close. Couldn't believe what I saw - A Dublin Bus stopped on the hill and abandoned, completely blocking the lane. All the traffic had to try and overtake in the hope that the opposing lane would let them over!

Also, a woman in a 4x4 in front of me hadn't a clue what to do and couldn't get up the hill. Tyres were screaming with revs. She pulled in, parked and left it. After she was out of the way, I carefully applied the power and got my two wheel drive up with ease!

LookBehindYou

Its all about smoothness.
I do a lot of driving, and have drove all over in the worst conditions.
I never use 1st gear. Take off in 2nd, if i cant take off forward, i reverse a bit and turn the wheels a bit to get out of the slippy patch, and use the handbrake to turn the vehicle in the direction i want.
Use the gears to slow down,and only use brakes VERY lightly, and keep good distance from vehicles in front.

Boardmaster

maybe snow chains, seems a bit extreme but if the snow is that bad should do the job. i think halfords have set for under 80 euro. Not tried them as the snow is ok this side of the country.

Best of luck

**Timbuk2**

Boardmaster wrote: »

maybe snow chains, seems a bit extreme but if the snow is that bad should do the job. i think halfords have set for under 80 euro. Not tried them as the snow is ok this side of the country.

Best of luck

Snow chains aren't really suitable for Ireland. Even the snow we have now is not thick enough for snow chains - they would probably do more harm than good, tbh.

copacetic

traco wrote: »

To my knowledge the reasons people say "high gears" is to reduce torque available to wheels but you should be able to control power with your clutch. Another reason would be to reduce risk of loss of traction on a subseqent gear change for 1st to 2nd if done abrubtly.

I agree with all of what your saying except for what gear to be in, anyone who is a bit nervous will find in much easier to be nearly off the clutch but still only crawling forward in second. Most people will struggle in first, even if they get going, they then come fully off the clutch too quickly then and start spinning the wheels.

i.e starting in 2nd is a foolproof way of doing what you are doing with your clutch control so it's the safest advice for most people imo.

Wishbone Ash

Eglinton wrote: »

I carefully applied the power and got my two wheel drive up with ease!

Bear in mind that your car is probably a front wheel drive. Those of us with rear wheel drive have a lot more work to do!

John Mason

LookBehindYou wrote: »

if i cant take off forward, i reverse a bit and turn the wheels a bit to get out of the slippy patch, and use the handbrake to turn the vehicle in the direction i want.
.

i did think about doing but was tailgated the whole way home, no one gave me an inch even when we were stuck in traffic on a steep enough hills which is where i had all of the problems - idiots

feel a rant coming on here:mad:

thanks for the "conflicting" advice my bro drives for the army has given a run down of what to do and not do

seriously, you have all helped and gave me a lot to think about and loads of different options

cheers

Eglinton

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Bear in mind that your car is probably a front wheel drive. Those of us with rear wheel drive have a lot more work to do!

Oh, don't worry. I fully appreciate that. I was just musing over the difference between her dreadful mis-use of her 4x4 and my relatively easy experience.

unkel

copacetic wrote: »

I agree with all of what your saying except for what gear to be in, anyone who is a bit nervous will find in much easier to be nearly off the clutch but still only crawling forward in second. Most people will struggle in first, even if they get going, they then come fully off the clutch too quickly then and start spinning the wheels.

i.e starting in 2nd is a foolproof way of doing what you are doing with your clutch control so it's the safest advice for most people imo.

I was going to post exactly the same thing. For most people starting and staying in 2nd would work out better / easier. The biggy would be that there's no chance of losing grip while changing gear

That said, I have been fine over the last few days starting in 1st with slipping clutch and engine just above stalling. My average rpm while driving has been around 1000

The Big Red Button

This whole thing about starting in second ... I've been driving in the worst of the snow and ice around Sligo, Longford and Dublin the last couple of weeks and I've always been starting in first, with no major difficulties. I drive a Colt.

However I also drive my dad's diesel Golf estate car a bit, and I would find myself starting off in second sometimes in that, I'm not even sure why.

I really have no idea of the science/engineering of it, but I suppose it just comes down to knowing your car and following your instincts etc, doesn't it, rather than any hard and fast rules?

Bulmers

i had a nitemare coming home too, have a 320d rwd and the amount of hills / inclines i had to give up on was unreal..tried all variations of everything in previous posts but some hills just wouldn't happen, traction on / off, nothing

i agree though the idea is to move the wheel as slowly as possible to try to get traction so that would be what i'd be trying to do..

stopping the tail kicking out on roads which are two lane and have an angled camber with a car 12 inches away from you can be fun aswell!

copacetic

Bulmers wrote: »

i had a nitemare coming home too, have a 320d rwd and the amount of hills / inclines i had to give up on was unreal..tried all variations of everything in previous posts but some hills just wouldn't happen, traction on / off, nothing

i agree though the idea is to move the wheel as slowly as possible to try to get traction so that would be what i'd be trying to do..

stopping the tail kicking out on roads which are two lane and have an angled camber with a car 12 inches away from you can be fun aswell!

I'm rwd too, with a bit more power than you and had no real troubles in the worst of it around south dublin. It was a very nerve wracking journey alright, trying to keep distance and never come to an actual stop, but in the end, then only issues I had was a bit of fishtailing on some very slippy but level roads and one hill were I had to crawl up with dsc off resisting the temptation to put power down when I seemed about to come to a stop. That would have been ok too except for the person in front who got a slight bit of wheelspin and then floored it and started to come backward.

Maybe your tyres are a little low on thread? I'd definitely try even 3rd if you are really struggling on hills.

rccaulfield

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Bear in mind that your car is probably a front wheel drive. Those of us with rear wheel drive have a lot more work to do!

Yea saw loadsa rwd cars in trouble today-whats the logic there? Had no probs myself 1.0 corsa fwd. Theres very gentle power at low revs so nthat helps!

copacetic

rccaulfield wrote: »

Yea saw loadsa rwd cars in trouble today-whats the logic there? Had no probs myself 1.0 corsa fwd. Theres very gentle power at low revs so nthat helps!

generally the average rwd car has more power to the driven wheels and a lot less weight over the driven wheels than the average front wheel drive cars. Not good for traction in slippy conditions.

HazardsOn

+1 on using 1st gear to start off with. The important thing is to be really smooth and introduce power as slowly as possible. Also, a spare bit of carpet, old rug or towel can be handy to have in the boot if you get into one of those situations where a spinning wheel just creates a bit of a rut that it doesn't want to get out of.

kwinabeeste

Some delivery man in a Transit was stuck in my estate earlier as i was coming in. He was clearing snow off the road.

I offered to give him a push and he floors it 1st. He told me he was doing this for 30mins. I got in and started in 1st with low revs and straight into 2nd. I got out. he was happy, but kinda pissed off as well!

Just a question when driving on snow and there are tyre tracks as well. should you drive on the snow rather than the tyre tracks as they seem to be very icy and more slippery?

Filipek

You can try to lower the air pressure in the tires so there is a large surface touching the ground.

It is not enough snow to use chains, once you get to the black asphalt it will be worse than on ice without chains. You can get winter tyres, not sure whether you can get them in Ireland.

Wishbone Ash

rccaulfield wrote: »

Yea saw loadsa rwd cars in trouble today-whats the logic there?

2 main reasons.

1. A front wheel drive car has the weight of the engine pressing down on the driving wheels giving extra traction whereas in a rear wheel drive (BMW/Mercs mainly) there is very little weight on the driving wheels.

2. RWD cars tend to 'fish-tail' when they get a bit of grip - i.e. the front goes all over the place as they are being pushed from behind. FWD cars tend to proceed in a straight line.

(I have 8 concrete blocks in the boot of my RWD - makes a huge difference. )

vibe666

the best tactic for driving in weather like this is to keep it as slow and steady as you need to, with as few rapid changes in speed or direction as you can manage. braking or accelerating to quickly, or cornering too quickly are going to get you into trouble.

one of the bigger problems is that people don't seem to be taught to think ahead when they are driving here, everyone seems to just sit behind the car in front of them staring at it's boot.

when i'm driving, particularly in adverse conditions, i'm looking ahead as far as I can see at the things that will be affecting me as i drive along.

take note of everything you see ahead of you and try and position yourself as best you can to overcome any obstacles.

is that shiny black stuff ahead wet tarmac, or black ice? if it's ice, do i have enough room between me and the car in front to come to a stop before i hit the back of them? is there any kind of incline? do i have enough momentum to get up it at the speed i'm travelling and is there a clear road ahead for me to get from the bottom to the top without stopping or driving into someone?

i'm usually looking several cars ahead of me and i'm ready to brake (with plenty of room to stop) before the two or 3 cars ahead of me have even seen any brake lights.

another thing you can do is to 'test' your cars handling when you are in a relatively safe environment, at low speed, on a straight road with no traffic or other hazards, if you see the road surface change to snowy or icy, just tap the brakes lightly to see what it takes to get your wheels to lock up so you are aware of the limits of your car in various conditions.

now i'm not telling you to go and do handbrake turns on roundabouts in rush hour, i'm talking about on an empty, straight, flat, road at low speed when you can't hit anything just to see where your traction gives out. apply braking pressure until you feel your wheels start to lock up and as soon as they do, let off the brakes right away.

imho, it's important to know what your car can and can't do, you might be surprised at how easily your traction can disappear. with a bit of luck it will cause people to give themselves a bit more braking distance between them and the car in front because from what i've seen in the last few weeks, the vast majority of people on the roads here don't have a clue how to drive in conditions like this.

daveharnett

Bulmers wrote: »

i had a nitemare coming home too, have a 320d rwd and the amount of hills / inclines i had to give up on was unreal..tried all variations of everything in previous posts but some hills just wouldn't happen, traction on / off, nothing

I found half-off to be useful. This allows the ASC to apply the brakes, but not to apply it's throttle. Try holding down the asc button down for about 10 seconds - the tc light should come on, then off again. Bear in mind that the only way to revert to normal ASC is then to restart the engine.

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

(I have 8 concrete blocks in the boot of my RWD - makes a huge difference. )

I prefer multipurpose ballast - spare mats, 60kg of sandbags and a shovel:D

RandomAccess

Bulmers wrote: »

i had a nitemare coming home too, have a 320d rwd and the amount of hills / inclines i had to give up on was unreal..tried all variations of everything in previous posts but some hills just wouldn't happen, traction on / off, nothing

i agree though the idea is to move the wheel as slowly as possible to try to get traction so that would be what i'd be trying to do..

stopping the tail kicking out on roads which are two lane and have an angled camber with a car 12 inches away from you can be fun aswell!

Bag of coal in the boot should help.

vibe666

daveharnett wrote: »

I prefer multipurpose ballast - spare mats, 60kg of sandbags and a shovel:D

don't forget the obvious one of filling your car up to the brim with fuel, since the fuel tank is most likely right next to the rear wheels.

just don't forget that the extra weight in the rear can give your back end more sideways momentum when going round icy corners so it's a bit of a double edged sword. i was coming back from my bio-diesel supplier last year with a full (92L) tank and another 120L of extra fuel in 20L barrels in the boot (it's a pajero, plenty of room) and had failed to take account of the extra weight in the back as i pulled out to turn right at a junction having driven through the mud left on the road by a tractor not far back and ended up half sideways as i came round the corner due to the sideways momentum of the extra weight throwing the back end out and my muddy wet tyres losing grip.

i did manage to keep hold of it with some opposite lock, but it must have look ed like the "fast and the furious, culchie edition" with me coming out of the junction sideways like that.

GreeBo

kwinabeeste wrote: »

Just a question when driving on snow and there are tyre tracks as well. should you drive on the snow rather than the tyre tracks as they seem to be very icy and more slippery?

Drive in the fresh snow if you are on any sort of incline or need to turn, you will compact it as you drive over it and this will give you grip (your tread will dig in)
Driving over existing tyre tracks is driving over frozen, compacted snow aka ice. and will be much harder.