ANZACs and Ireland

R.Dub.Fusilier

here is a link to an excellent site that gives army records , free to download , on australian soldiers . records are very clear on screen and easy to read and contain pleanty of information in them. http://mappingouranzacs.naa.gov.au/ and the section on Ireland http://mappingouranzacs.naa.gov.au/map.aspx?d=ireland

Morlar

I came across a book on this subject recently, it looked interesting but I didn't buy it as I have a backlog of books at the moment.

It was unusual to see the photographs of the slanted Anzac caps on soldiers in (I think) Capel street.

http://www.corkuniversitypress.com/Anzacs_and_Ireland/11/

Anzacs and Ireland is a broad narrative history that examines and reflects on the relationship between Australians and Ireland during the First World War. It is a military history that considers the battles where the Irish and Australian troops fought together but it is also a social history.

The book offers an account of the activities of Australian soldiers on leave who ended up in Ireland as tourists and often found themselves caught up in the Easter Rising of 1916 and the Black and Tan War. The chapter on the Easter Rising adds a new dimension to the increasingly complex picture of that event, while students and scholars of the Irish diaspora will find much of interest also.

The author makes use of participants’ diaries. There are fascinating glimpses of rarely mentioned social aspects of wartime Ireland, such as the ‘six bob a day tourists’ (Australian soldiers on leave). Kildea also looks at the ongoing impact of the First World War on Australian and Irish identity, and compares recent commemorations of WWI in both countries.

Jeff Kildea is a practicing barrister who also teaches part-time in Irish Studies within the School of History at UNSW. He completed his PhD, which was later published as Tearing the Fabric: Sectarianism in Australia 1910-1925, at UNSW in 2001. He is also the editor of the Thomson loose leaf service on Land & Environment Court Law & Practice.

Softback: 2007
Printed Pages: 302
Size: 234 x156mm
ISBN: 9781859184226

R.Dub.Fusilier

Morlar wrote: »

I came across a book on this subject recently, it looked interesting but I didn't buy it as I have a backlog of books at the moment.

It was unusual to see the photographs of the slanted Anzac caps on soldiers in (I think) Capel street.

i have seen this book i a few shops and its one thats on my list to buy in the future.

R.Dub.Fusilier

Morlar wrote: »

I came across a book on this subject recently, it looked interesting but I didn't buy it as I have a backlog of books at the moment.

It was unusual to see the photographs of the slanted Anzac caps on soldiers in (I think) Capel street.

sorry to revive an old thread .i got this book the other day and it is a good read. gives information on ANZACS buried in ireland , involvement in the 1916 Rising , deserters in Ireland and ANZACS taking their holidays here. the picture on the cover is taken in Kerry of an ANZAC on his honeymoon during WW1. interesting book and well worth a read.

Gooner_B

Hi all! This is my first time on the forum. Just a word of caution regarding the mappingouranzacs site. It is undoubtedly a great source of information as I found out that a Dennis Driscoll from Crossmahon, Bandon, which is my neighbourhood, served in the Great War. I've been researching Bandon's involvement in WWI for over a year and this nugget of information came as quite a surprise. Nevertheless, our Australian friends do not have an accurate understanding of Irish geography. Be careful!

johnny_doyle

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

sorry to revive an old thread .i got this book the other day and it is a good read. gives information on ANZACS buried in ireland , involvement in the 1916 Rising , deserters in Ireland and ANZACS taking their holidays here. the picture on the cover is taken in Kerry of an ANZAC on his honeymoon during WW1. interesting book and well worth a read.

RDF,

could I ask what info there is in the book re Anzac deserters in Ireland and if there's any mention of involvement in the War of Independence? Interested to see if there is any reference to a James Gorman/O'Gorman or a Patrick Cornelius Casey MM.

JD

R.Dub.Fusilier

johnny_doyle wrote: »

RDF,

could I ask what info there is in the book re Anzac deserters in Ireland and if there's any mention of involvement in the War of Independence? Interested to see if there is any reference to a James Gorman/O'Gorman or a Patrick Cornelius Casey MM.

JD

cant remember if James Gorman/O'Gorman or a Patrick Cornelius Casey MM were mentioned but had a look in the index and there was no mention. in regard to the deserters they are mentioned a few time but in no great detail but if i remember rightly it says that they got help from family members and republicans and suggests that they may have helped train republicans. its a good book and well worth a read.

johnny_doyle

thanks for looking for me. The book is on my wish list but it's a long wish list at the moment.

Gorman/O'Gorman was originally from Kilmallock, Co Limerick, emigrated to Oz, fought with the AIF and then deserted from hospital in London. Fought with Dan Breen and Ernie O'Malley and was in No 1 Tipperary Flying Column under Dinny Lacey. Scant info re Casey at the moment.

digger20

When Jeff Kildea wrote his "Anzacs and Ireland" he wasn't looking at Anzac involvement in Ireland's War of Independence. His work on the Diggers during Easter 1916 is groundbreaking. Jeff has generously agreed to be a supervisor on my thesis on the IRA Diggers. It started out trying to track my grandfather Cornelius Patrick "Con" Casey who inverted his first name when he enlisted in Australia to Patrick Cornelius - I suspect because to join the AIF there was an Oath of Loyalty to the King. His parents had both come from the Ballyhoura Mountains in East Limerick father Michael from Glenanaar East and mother Minnie Nagle from Glenosheen. Con was AWL in Ireland from August 1917 till October 1919. The uncle who ran the family farm in Glenanaar where Con spent much of his time was a Sergeant Patrick Casey and the aunties still there were also active. By 1926, like Jim Gorman, all had left Ireland.

There were over 6000 Irish born men and women enlisted in the AIF. I have been through the service records of every one of them. Huge numbers of Diggers were AWL in Ireland. (Only the Australian Army did not have capital punishment.) They were assisted and supported by the Irish and Sinn Fein. What did they give in return? That's what I am trying to find out. Some, like my grandfather, faced the Court Martial and returned to Oz, some didn't.

This story did has never been told. Some Irish people and some Irish Australians are digging up info and stories to help fill in the gaps. Any help from descendants would be most welcome.

Jim Gorman was not from Kilmallock but from Kilcommon in Tipperary. Enlisted as No 2417 in the 55th Battalion.

Any help to tell this story would be most welcome.

R.Dub.Fusilier

Digger20 you should put some of your information up as i am sure there are people who would like to read it , me included.

enfield

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enfield

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digger20

Jim Gorman was born in Garrycummer in Kilcommon, Co Tipperary, in May 1888 and arrived in Australia, "The land of gold and sunshine" as he described it in one of his poems "Five Miles from Capperwhite", in 1910. He applied to enlist in the Australian Imperial Force at Tumberumba in NSW on 25 April 1916, Easter Sunday and the 1st anniversary of Anzac Day. His Next of Kin was his father, David, still in Kilcommon.

He embarked from Sydney on 30 September with the 5th Reinforcements of the 55th Battalion. Jim's attitude to military discipline was pretty characteristic of the AIF (I wonder how much its larrakin image was a somewhat liberated Australian/Irish response to a (largely) Anglo officer class?) and there are numerous minor offences. He spent most of 1917 on the continent until wounded in the hand on 28/9/17, Battle of Polygon Wood (Passchendaele where 5th Division memorial is today).

Discharged to furlough from Camberwell Hospital on 30 October, he went to Ireland and never returned to the AIF and, therefore, Australia. In Ireland he became Lieutenant in the Hollyford Company of the South Tipperary Bde. of the IRA and was very active up until the Truce training Volunteers, assisting in the Knocklong Rescue and taking a leading part in the barracks attacks at Hollyford, Cappawhite and Rearcross and in the Thomastown Ambush. He did not participate in the Civil War but emigrated to Canada and then the USA in 1924 (or 5).

Settling in Chicago, he had 4 children - 3 boys, all served with the stars and stripes in WW2 with Jim jnr. KIA in January 1945 at only 19. Jim died on 24 March 1967. Poet, adventurer, dancer and musician Jim was described by both Ernie O'Malley and Dan Breen as iconic Digger - sunbrowned, leathery skin, a laconic sense of humour, cool under pressure, full of initiative and a crack shot.

digger20

2417 Private James Gorman was 27 years and 11 months when he enlisted in the AIF. He was 5'6" with blue eyes, brown hair and a fair "Irish" complexion

digger20

Presented the story of the Diggers and the IRA at the Australian Defence Force Academy on Tuesday. They had never heard a thing about it. Got a very interested response. Come on Irish some of you must have some of the story. I want to honour those men and appease their ghosts. They were discharged by the Australian Army in 1920 as DESERTERS when they were nothing of the sort. They were fighting for something they believed in: a free Ireland.

R.Dub.Fusilier

nothing to do with OP b ut these a great pictures of the Australian Lighthorse.

johnny_doyle

attached is a photo of some of the Knocklong protagonists.

Breen stayed with Ned O'Brien for a short while after Soloheadbeg.

another brother William (Willie Pa) O'Brien died in 1916 shortly after release from prison having been rounded up in Cork following the Easter Rising.

John Joe O'Brien's house in Galbally was taken over by the BA; he was later to snipe at his own house.

digger20

Breen places Jim Gorman on the platform at Knocklong as a rifleman in support. He mentions another Australian soldier at the station who was not involved but shouted "Up the IRA."

digger20

There were 64 Irish born Australian soldiers still AWL when the AIF cleared the books on 1 April 1920 (is the date significant) who were consequentially charged with desertion. - 57 RC and 7 other. A further 168 were discharged when demobilised in London - 74, of whom, were RC and 94 were other.

digger20

2417 Private James Gorman was one of those diggers discharged for desertion from the AIF on April Fools Day 1920. He had more important things to do. He became a Lieutenant in the Hollyford Company of the South Tipperary Brigade of the IRA.

Snickers Man

digger20 wrote: »

. Huge numbers of Diggers were AWL in Ireland. (Only the Australian Army did not have capital punishment.)

Slightly OT

I was told, anecdotally although it might be verifiable from written records, that one British General who was most frustrated by the lack of capital punishment in the Australian Army was the Commander-in-Chief of British forces in Egypt in 1915.

He was involved in the planning for the Gallipoli campaign as Egypt was the initial staging post for many of the Allied troops who landed there, especially the Australians.

This general apparently was outraged that he was not able to tie the odd Digger to a post and shoot him "pour encourager les autres" or to put some deferential, class-based manners on these slovenly, laid-back, colonials with their reluctance to salute and their apparent tendency, in some cases, to call officers by their first names.

The general's name was John Maxwell. He was eventually relieved of his command in Egypt, sent over to Dublin the following Easter to deal with the rebels there and took the ample opportunity afforded to put his theories of executing recalcitrants to the test.

See how that worked out for him.

digger20

Australia was the only country in WW1 without capitol punishment. There was pressure not only from Maxwell but also Haig and George V. The government wanted to keep them happy but Minister of Defence Pearce insisted to PM Hughes that the people would not cop it! 2 failed conscription referenda also were pretty significant.

And then there was that great other British General that Australians love - Anglo Irish Herbert Gough - leader of the Curragh mutiny - whose ineptitude butchered Australians on the Somme, at Bullecourt and on the road to Passchendaele.

Ah, the British ruling class.

Snickers Man

digger20 wrote: »

Australia was the only country in WW1 without capitol punishment.

Was that solely as a consequence of the Breaker Morant case in South Africa a decade or so previously?

digger20

Yes, it was after the Breaker Morant execution in the Boer War that the law regarding capital punishment was changed in Australia. And wish as they might to reinstate it during WW1, the government knew that the Australian people would not cop it. There was also a sense that as they had freely volunteered that should have some freedom of choice of action. That makes me proud to be Aussie. "The Thin yellow Line" is excellent reading on the British use of capital punishment to control their soldiers.

digger20

Anyone know anything about a small British Military Barracks at Glenosheen in the Ballyhoura Mountains of East Limerick in years 1917-1920?

digger20

I've found the RIC Barracks at Glenosheen in the 1911 Census. I know the Black and Tans used RIC Barracks but they did not start up in Ireland till March 1920. Did the British Army also use RIC Barracks? I am looking at an impromptu firing squad for an Australian soldier in mid to late 1919. He was not executed.

pflanagan132

Hi Digger 20. Could I ask please where you found Dick Hurley listed as a participant in Kilmichael? Patrick Flanagan

digger20

G'day Patrick,
you must have found my Easter Commemoration speech. That is the one big glaring error (that I am aware of).
Dick Hurley joined the West Cork Flying Column soon after Kilmichael and at the time he was involved in guard duty at the Black Bog.
I am not sure how to withdraw the piece on academia.edu to input the correction.
Kerry Casey

pflanagan132

Hi Kerry. Many thanks for your prompt reply. I am based in Ireland, and am doing some research for the author Kathleen Hegarty Thorne, [author of They Put The Flag a-Flyin']. That book dealt with the Roscommon Volunteers, 1916-1922.
She has just had published Volume 1 of a 3 volume set, dealing with the IRA and Irish history 1913 to the mid 1960s. This book is called Echoes of their Footsteps, Volume One.
She has written a piece on the Diggers involved with the IRA, drawing largely on your work, which will be duly credited to you when it is published in Volume 2.
Do you have any idea of a date of death for Dick Hurley? I have searched newspaper archives without success.
My email address is pjaflanagan@gmail.com, and if you would contact me offline I could email you what she has written re the Diggers. Aside from the six you chronicle, are you aware of any other Diggers who threw in their lot with the IRA.
Your assistance is much appreciated, Patrick Flanagan