Osteopathy Respected?

emart100

Hi, basically im wondering how legitimate osteopathy is viewed as a profession in todays Ireland?

Ive become unemployed recently and im considering undertaking this new 5 year part-time programme available in Dublin( http://www.ntc.ie/_gfx/1256310753_Osteopathy1009.pdf )
However, this is a very serious course in terms of commitment and finance so im obviously concerned about the earning prospects after qualification. Im also aware that the GAA are no longer covering claim forms signed by osteopaths and other practitionerers. Im based in Waterford so I dont think the market is flooded here, but again my worry is, is osteopathy mainstream enough to provide me with a middle of the road income?

Ive considered the sports massage therapy route also offered by the NTC in Dublin, which has the advantage of allowing you to practise after 15 months- affording you the option to continue to degree level. Are Joe/Josephine Soap attending clinics for regular treatments by osteopaths or physical therapists/sports massage therapists? I need to make a call on this shortly so any pointers to the right road would be really welcome.

Thanks

locum-motion

Well, I for one would have approximately twice as much respect for an Osteopath as I would for a Chiropractor.






(Mind you, twice fcuk all is still fcuk all!)

Bugnug

locum-motion wrote: »

Well, I for one would have approximately twice as much respect for an Osteopath as I would for a Chiropractor.






(Mind you, twice fcuk all is still fcuk all!)

Great form of therapy and maintenace for the body. I had back problems and tried everything for years, physio, neuro, chiro and Osteopathy is by far the best holistic treatement. No courses available in Ireland, you have to do the degree in London, my friend did it, it costs a lot and it takes about 6 years in total. It is a hugely respected profession in many other countries. In the USA you have to be a qualified medical doctor to study osteopathy.

Good luck.

emart100

Bugnug wrote: »

No courses available in Ireland, you have to do the degree in London, my friend did it, it costs a lot and it takes about 6 years in total.

Hi Bugnug, yeah the general feedback ive got elsewhere regarding osteopaths is about 90% positive so they must be doing something right! The new course available in the NTC in Dublin allows you to qualify in Ireland. Although osteopathy is not yet regulated in Ireland, the college "will undertake accreditation with the OCI or whichever body becomes the official regulator to ensure our students are entitled to practise in Ireland".

Have you ever been treated by a physical therapist?
Were you recommended to a specific osteopath and how did you find the cost stacked up against other treatments?

Bugnug

emart100 wrote: »

Hi Bugnug, yeah the general feedback ive got elsewhere regarding osteopaths is about 90% positive so they must be doing something right! The new course available in the NTC in Dublin allows you to qualify in Ireland. Although osteopathy is not yet regulated in Ireland, the college "will undertake accreditation with the OCI or whichever body becomes the official regulator to ensure our students are entitled to practise in Ireland".

Have you ever been treated by a physical therapist?
Were you recommended to a specific osteopath and how did you find the cost stacked up against other treatments?

I have been to a few Osteopaths and like everything its about finding the one thats right for you but they were all good in their own right. Cost is the same as any other kind of therapy. Physios I found to be the most expensive and least effective, they are too general. I currently attend the <Mod snip>, they are great in there.

emart100

Bugnug wrote: »

I have been to a few Osteopaths and like everything its about finding the one thats right for you but they were all good in their own right. Cost is the same as any other kind of therapy. Physios I found to be the most expensive and least effective, they are too general. I currently attend the <Mod Snip>, they are great in there.

Yep that name came up a few times on my searches. Do you find that these clinics are any way busy? ie can you pick and chose your own appointments or are there generally a few others being treated around the same time?

locum-motion

Bugnug wrote: »

Great form of therapy and maintenace for the body. I had back problems and tried everything for years, physio, neuro, chiro and Osteopathy is by far the best holistic treatement. No courses available in Ireland, you have to do the degree in London, my friend did it, it costs a lot and it takes about 6 years in total. It is a hugely respected profession in many other countries. In the USA you have to be a qualified medical doctor to study osteopathy.

Good luck.

Putting back on my Moderator's hat:

Bugnug, This is the Health Sciences forum. If you want to state that a treatment works, it is expected that you back that up with scientific evidence. This is especially true if you are promoting 'complementary' or 'alternative' therapies. "It worked for me" is anecdote, not evidence.
By the way, there is a difference between 'osteopathy' and 'osteopathic medicine'. The latter is what you are referring to in the US.

Bugnug wrote: »

I have been to a few Osteopaths and like everything its about finding the one thats right for you but they were all good in their own right. Cost is the same as any other kind of therapy. Physios I found to be the most expensive and least effective, they are too general. I currently attend the <Mod snip>, they are great in there.

We don't allow recommendations of specific practices or practitioners here.

Can you have a wee look at the Charters please. Thanks.

emart100

[quote=locum-motion;


By the way, there is a difference between 'osteopathy' and 'osteopathic medicine'. The latter is what you are referring to in the US.

[/quote]

Hi this is not necessarily true- there are courses available in the UK in osteopathic medicine and also in the NTC Dublin, which qualify you as an osteopath. However it is true that in the US you must be a doctor to progress to an osteopath

Prime Mover

No in the US a DO is a medical doctor that does a bit of osteopathy along the way. It is not a post-graduate medical qualification and the trend is that less and less are actually using their osteopathy training and are applying for traditional allopathic specialties.

In Europe, osteopathy is a Complementary / Alternative therapy.

Do you really believe in its benefits or do you just see a business opportunity?

emart100

Well, theres no possible way I could commit myself to a 5 year programme without beleiving that the practice of osteopathy is benificial to its recipiants. I have spoken to osteopaths recently and from conversations got the impression that unless you are good at what you do, you can forget about any business opportunity.

I get the impression that you are a tad cynical about the whole osteopathic area?

imported_guy

Prime Mover wrote: »

No in the US a DO is a medical doctor that does a bit of osteopathy along the way. It is not a post-graduate medical qualification and the trend is that less and less are actually using their osteopathy training and are applying for traditional allopathic specialties.

In Europe, osteopathy is a Complementary / Alternative therapy.

Do you really believe in its benefits or do you just see a business opportunity?

actully D.O. schools are completely different than M.D. schools, but you still have to give USMLE to practice (you can give USMLE 1 after first 2 years of either degree and then step 2 CK and CS after the last 2 of either degree), and then you can enroll in a residency programme (most residencies accept D.O.s and M.Ds AFAIK) that will take you on and then you become board certified medical practitioner, so yes an osteopath in america = proper doctor

http://www.aacom.org/people/colleges/pages/default.aspx list of accredited D.O. schools in america

Prime Mover

How are they "completely different" exactly? Here's a Wiki excerpt....
"According to Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine, "the training, practice, credentialing, licensure, and reimbursement of osteopathic physicians is virtually indistinguishable from those of allopathic MD physicians, with 4 years of osteopathic medical school followed by specialty and subspecialty training and [board] certification."[5]
DO-granting US medical schools have curricula identical for the most part to those of MD-granting schools. Generally, the first two years are classroom-based, while the third and fourth years consist of clinical rotations through the major specialties of medicine."


Also, they use COMLEX not USMLE. They only need USMLE if applying to certain allopathic residencies.


Anyway emart100, I don't have any problem with the manual therapy for musculoskeletal issues. I do have a problem when this is extended to other problems such as asthma or infections.


Regarding your original question, I don't think it is that mainstream here in Ireland. Personally I don't know anyone who uses one but that's just my experience. Maybe if you contact the OCI they could help you out on what your overheads will be to set up a practice and what level of business you need to break even.

emart100

Thanks Prime Mover, I have spoken with some osteopaths over the last couple of days and they all recommend a similar course of action, ie establishing contact with the OCI especially to check validity of qualifications . From what I can see its an area badly in need of regulation, and anyone with a genuine qualification is in favour of it happening asap

AdelaideOsteo

Hi emart,

Being an osteopath (as opposed to, say, a physiotherapist or sports physician) is not without challenges. The study is a huge commitment in time and finances, and osteopaths are not always considered serious primary care providers, even in countries where it is a registered profession. However, as an osteopath you will have a highly rewarding career. You will be far more skilled than a massage therapist and therefore able offer professional, primary care. Once you have established yourself in practice, you will be able to control your own work life and will make a very good living.

Good luck with the decision.

Luke

emart100

Cheers Luke. I'm edging towards taking the plunge- providing the programme im considering stacks up and is going to be recognised!! It seems that the both course structure and public perception of osteopathy varies greatly from country to country, so vital for me to do my homework properly

jbloggs

locum-motion wrote: »

Well, I for one would have approximately twice as much respect for an Osteopath as I would for a Chiropractor.
(Mind you, twice fcuk all is still fcuk all!)

I would be most interested to hear why you say this?

emart100:

You would find a career in Osteopathy very rewarding, not only financially, but also in "job" satisfaction, the variation in it is great due to the fact that each person is different...

Can you link me to a Syllabus for this diploma, as there is no details in the PDF file you linked too of the subjects you do in each term/year.

Have you considered going to the mainland as there are a number of colleges in the UK that do full Osteopathic degrees:

ESO

BCOM

The College Of Osteopaths

British College of Naturopathy & Osteopathy

GOC

If you are interested in Osteopathy, I would also look into Chiropractic as both are very similiar...

AECC

Welsh Institute of Chiropractic

McTimoney College Of Chiropractic

locum-motion

locum-motion wrote: »

Well, I for one would have approximately twice as much respect for an Osteopath as I would for a Chiropractor.
(Mind you, twice fcuk all is still fcuk all!)

jbloggs wrote: »

I would be most interested to hear why you say this?

Quite simple really.
I would say that because
if x = the amount of respect I have for Chiropractors
then 2x = the amount of respect I have for Osteopaths.

And x = fcuk all.

That's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it!
If you disagree, then that's your prerogative.


Oh, and just FYI, if you want anyone on an Irish website to have any respect for you, it's generally not considered a great idea to refer to the UK as "the mainland".

jbloggs

locum-motion wrote: »

Quite simple really.
I would say that because
if x = the amount of respect I have for Chiropractors
then 2x = the amount of respect I have for Osteopaths.

And x = fcuk all.

That's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it!
If you disagree, then that's your prerogative.

If you are that biased maybe you would find your "niche" as Moderator in another part of "Boards.ie" forums, as it certainly has no place in Health related matters!

if you want anyone on an Irish website to have any respect for you, it's generally not considered a great idea to refer to the UK as "the mainland"

My Irish credentials are as good as yours... :P

locum-motion

jbloggs wrote: »

If you are that biased maybe you would find your "niche" as Moderator in another part of "Boards.ie" forums, as it certainly has no place in Health related matters!

I may be a Moderator, but I am still entitled to my own opinions.
As you are to yours. If you have a problem with me, please feel free to report me to the Category Moderators or Admins.

jbloggs wrote: »

My Irish credentials are as good as yours... :P

Then you should already be aware that most Irish people dislike hearing the UK referred to as the mainland. Further discussion on this topic can be taken to the Politics forum.

emart100

[QUOTE=jbloggs;64123551

Can you link me to a Syllabus for this diploma, as there is no details in the PDF file you linked too of the subjects you do in each term/year.

Hi jbloggs the following is a link to the syllabus but its not very comprehensive in its detail!

http://www.ntc.ie/course.php?id=1256049551

I have spoken to several osteopaths regarding the course but all are expressing reservations because the programme is new and has not achieved degree status (yet?). Family commitments and financial obstacles probably rule out the UK option for me, even though there are a couple of part time 5 year degrees on offer.

Its no good seeking advice from those wearing the t-shirt unless you listen so unfortunately I'd say I'll have to steer clear unless the Dublin course gets the validated for the degree. AFAIK Chiropractic training is not available either in Ireland, so I may consider physical therapy.

Anyone any thoughts on the potential of physical therapy as a means to make a living?

Dublin2Physio

As a physiotherapist I have a great deal of respect for osteopathy.
I would be careful re: the part time course though.
Most full time osteopathy courses are longer than this. Also find out the exact scope of the clinical practice involved.
Talk to someone working for the national body and get their feelings on the course. Legislation is rapidly changing for allied health professionals with statutory registration around the corner. I am sure that osteopaths will soon become involved in this process as well. Its also good to think about how the course matches up with practice requirements in the UK, US and other countries should you ever consider moving or working broad.

Whether you choose this course or not, musculoskeletal medicine is an extremely satisfying field to work in. But be aware that it can be difficult to get started out in once you qualify as it takes a while to build up a viable practice.

All the best for the future

Dublin2Physio

Forgot to mention that the national body is the Osteopathic Council of Ireland
www.osteopathy.ie

emart100

Thanks Stephen.

Yeah just to back up what you say-I've spoken to several members of the OCI and the common feedback is to hang back until if and when the degree status is granted to the course. The structure of the course (ie part time attendance) is probably not an issue because London School of Osteopathy run a similar part time degree over 5 years and it seems to be well respected among osteopaths I've spoken with. The NTC course lecturers are all UK based osteopaths and I know that many have teaching experience on osteopathy degree programmes in England. However the bottom line is that at some stage in not too distant future the whole setup is going to be regulated so AFAIK anyone without a degree blessed by the OCI or GOsC can forget about practicing as an osteopath.

Do you know of anyone earning a crust in physical therapy?

Dublin2Physio

emart100 wrote: »

Thanks Stephen.

Do you know of anyone earning a crust in physical therapy?

When you say physical therapy do you mean BSc Physiotherapy grads or the grads of the parttime dip. courses from IPTAS and NTC etc.

TBH most of my Bsc class had to emmigrate to NZ to find employment when we graduated. Now that they are back they seem to be doing fine
If you are willing to move out of Dublin there are definately opportunities
but like all areas in a recession people are cutting back on private health services but this has tended to mean a loss of the waiting list for appointments versus having slots free here and there.

I don't really know how the dip grads fair.
The label physical therapist has caused a bit of confusion/heated debate in the past. In other countries the 2 terms are synomynous here they are "different". The Irish Society of Chartered Physiotherapists is the only body in Ireland recognised as being a member of the World Confederation of Physical Therapy so I would strongly recommend the BSc program to ensure recognition for the future. It is also the only one of the two that makes one eligible for hospital practice if the HSE ever lift the employment freeze that is!

In private practice your ability to earn relies not only on your clinical skills but also on your ability to market and brand yourself so if you do go and do the BSc make sure you use every opportunity to brush up on your business skills [e.g. UCD have an elective system now allowing you to take modules outside your core subject]

Hope this helps
All the best
Stephen

emart100

Dublin2Physio wrote: »

When you say physical therapy do you mean BSc Physiotherapy grads or the grads of the parttime dip. courses from IPTAS and NTC etc.

It would be the physical therapy, primarily because of the entry level to physiotherapy. Also I have financial and family commitments in Waterford that dictate that I can only undertake a part time course unless it is locally based. I know that there are a couple of degree options in Ireland in Physical Therapy but Im also aware of the friction existing regarding the physio/physical debate. I know they are seperate entities but if I cant do osteopathy I am looking for a viable alternative, that I can hopefully earn a modest wage from!

Dublin2Physio

Agh ok- that's understandable.

jbloggs

I've spoken to several members of the OCI and the common feedback is to hang back until if and when the degree status is granted to the course.

I would certainly agree with this bit of advice, I do feel that doing a degree in Osteopathy (or you chosen health profession) is really the way forward be it part-time or full-time.

In the UK, Osteopathy got the Osteopathic Act in 1993 (giving the regulatory GOC) and Chiropractic in 1994 (which gave the GCC), and I would think things are heading in this general direction in Ireland.

When these two things are attained in Ireland, it will make a big difference to how both professions practice etc...

CAI

emart100

Yeah even as it stands without regulation, it seems to be far from a piece of cake to make a living from either of these. Anyone Ive spoken to says it took a few years after qualification to build up a steady "trade", so its a long road

endamary

would love to hear what you opted for in the end?

emart100

Hi Endamary,

given all the advice I received from people on the inside track it would have been criminal to proceed with the NTC Irish based osteopathy programme. Instead I undertook the NTC physical therapy certificate but I wasnt overly impressed with their set up, especially their ability to charge extortionate sums for what is just a pre diploma course...but hey we learn as we go!

I understand that they are now in the process of giving their osteo BSc a public launch and my 10 cents worth would be to take a long look before taking this leap because I know of a couple of people who were badly burnt by signing up to a similar course in Ireland with a different provider a few years back.

I have since followed another road, just finishing my 1st year of a psychotherapy degree this week and happy out!

opinion guy

Prime Mover wrote: »

In Europe, osteopathy is a Complementary / Alternative therapy.

This varies throughout Europe. In France they had a big review few years back - maybe ten years ago - under the medical authoritites and the medical authorities basically said ok if you stop doing x,y,z and stop saying a,b,c we approve of you guys. They agreed and osteopathy is recognised as a health profession in France and they can work in hospitals etc etc (at least - thats the abridged version I heard)

Anyhow info on regional variations here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathy#Osteopathy_around_the_world