Best route to a career in Law?

FishTaco

Hi there, hoping some of you experienced legal eagles can give me some advice. I'm a 21 year old student with a BA degree, currently in the middle of a relatively pointless postgrad degree. Ultimately I want to do law and probably end up as a solicitor. Problem is I dont know what the best way of getting there is; should I start at the beginning again and do a full law degree in UCD or TCD or somewhere, should I take one of the Griffith 'Cram' courses and then tackle the FE1's, or should I look for some sort of postgrad law course? Any and all advice is welcome, thanks.

maidhc

aside from the usual disclaimer that there is no money in it and you are better off getting a normal job, were I in your position I'd chance one of the Griffith courses (or similar) and have a go off the Fe1s asap.

eagle_&_bear

FishTaco wrote: »

Hi there, hoping some of you experienced legal eagles can give me some advice. I'm a 21 year old student with a BA degree, currently in the middle of a relatively pointless postgrad degree. Ultimately I want to do law and probably end up as a solicitor. Problem is I dont know what the best way of getting there is; should I start at the beginning again and do a full law degree in UCD or TCD or somewhere, should I take one of the Griffith 'Cram' courses and then tackle the FE1's, or should I look for some sort of postgrad law course? Any and all advice is welcome, thanks.

hi there,
a post-grad in law won't really help you with the FE1's as it usually focuses on specialised areas and not on the core central areas that you need to focus on for the FE1's

You do not need to go back and do a law degree at all. The options open to you are either the Griffith College or the Independent Colleges preparatory courses. They run at different times in the year so check with both colleges.

I wouldn't really recommend any other of the less-well known course providers. Not because they can't teach the course but the courses are expensive and you want the best when you're going to be so focused on the topics.

The best thing with the courses is that they will give you the manuals and you just learn them verbatim. Invariably you will have to do some extra basic work from the leading text books to really ground yourself in the 8 areas but it can definately be done. There's no need to go the expense of doing the BCL/LLB route

If you've any specific questions, please don't hesitate to fire away and I'll help where I can

Aprilsunshine

Some people do the DIT legal masters and I think it covers a lot of the topics for FE1s...starting from scratch with prep courses will be difficult.

UCD started a new masters last year - it is basically 3 years of law degree in one postgrad year - can't think of the ame but its on the website - that would be a useful start. I think it's a masters of Civil law or something similar.

FishTaco

Thanks for the help guys, will check out those options properly. I'll prob be back with more questions at some point too

NoQuarter

You could also do the kings inns course and become a barrister. (2 years i think)

Het-Field

king-stew wrote: »

You could also do the kings inns course and become a barrister. (2 years i think)

3 years !

2 @ PGDIP level, 1 @ BL Degree

Strictly

I have an LLB and 8 FE1 have been called for 2 interviews but I am not feeling very hopeful. What Post grad/Masters could I do that would imrpove my chances? Should I do something in Law or a Business one?

Jo King

Strictly wrote: »

I have an LLB and 8 FE1 have been called for 2 interviews but I am not feeling very hopeful. What Post grad/Masters could I do that would imrpove my chances? Should I do something in Law or a Business one?

You are thinking far too academically. You need to work on your personality and also think of ways you can add value to the firm by bringing in business.

ilovelamp2000

Strictly wrote: »

I have an LLB and 8 FE1 have been called for 2 interviews but I am not feeling very hopeful. What Post grad/Masters could I do that would imrpove my chances? Should I do something in Law or a Business one?

Have you any legal work experience ?

dats_right

To be brutally honest about it, I don't think anybody could recommend embarking on a career in law at present. For a start there is about 1,000 qualified solicitors on the dole, who cannot find work, many of whom may never work in the profession again; there are about 650 odd due to qualify over the next few months, most of whom will join the dole queues too! The same applies to the 550 or so due to qualify next year.

The problem is that there is an enormous over supply at all stages of the profession. Quite simply there are too many candidates sitting the fe-1's, it is a sad reality that many of whom will never practise despite having passed all 8 exams. There are too many apprentices due to qualify, who likewise probably will never practice. And this is not something that will change over the next 12, 18, 24 or 36 months. This is a structural problem in that supply%

legal eagle 1

Best route to misery...........a career in law!!

eagle_&_bear

I'm kind of torn on this topic.

I'm new down at the lawlibrary (devilling this year) and I see alot of very dispondent people about.

From our 1st ''welcome'' day and I have to say everyone is really lovely down there but we're told that only 1 in 5 people now will be here in 5 years time because it takes longer than 5years to establish a base and start getting any sort of work

I'm lucky that i'm getting good contacts at the moment but I do worry what happens next year? I wont have the comfort of my master next year to keep me busy.

I love this profession and this career and it is incredibly rewarding to actually be apart of providing a solution to some persons issue but, reality will have to bite soon. Unless you are financially sound, a life in law is not rosey in any capacity until you are well established. it is moreso common that in the first 3years you should expect to earn NOTHING and if you do then it's the extreme exception

so think about it. A previous poster did mention fully qualified and experienced solicitors on the dole queue, I can say from my experience thus far that alot of the much more established criminal firms and some civil firms are not hiring anyone, not even if you ask to work for free!! and there's no real plan to for 2-3years - unfortunately thats the cold reality so I really wonder why people would turn to it right now. I appreciate I'm a little hypocritical in that I turned to it last year in the early recession period but being honest...I am giving thought to options outside the library

thats just my insight into a new members life in the legal profession.

I love the job, I love work, I love the people and the atmoshere, but sometimes love and like doesn't put food on the table.

Johnny Utah

Money and connections.

stephenhealy1

Things are bad now - a lot can change in a couple of years. You have to be somewhat positive. Us Irish are experts at wallowing in our own misery! Going to overdose now

eagle_&_bear

lol!!

not wallowing at all.... just a healthy dose of scepticism

enry

i cant tell you what the best route to a career in law is but i can tell you what ever route you take at the min its going to be a very difficult one.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0108/1224261895702.html

FishTaco

The state of the industry does worry me but I'm trying to stay optimistic. I'm not afraid of a lot of hard work and I hope, my father being a reasonably successful solicitor, that I've inherited some ability and can use contacts to get my foot on the ladder. He's very out of touch with the various paths into the career though, hence this thread. Thanks for all the help from everyone.

legal eagle 1

my father being a reasonably successful solicitor, that I've inherited some ability and can use contacts to get my foot on the ladder.

That connection alone will give you a much better chance at the career than a lot of us around here!!

skyhighflyer

If you're interested in a career in law, my advice is to go for it. Just do the FE-1s, no point doing another degree.

I think a lot of people are missing the point with their doom and gloom scenarios about prospects for the profession. The sector is undergoing a brutal readjustment, granted. However, I think anyone with a training contract for 2009, 2010 or 2011 is in a relatively strong position.

When they qualify in 2012/13, things should have picked up. Even though there won't be a return to growth on pre-crunch levels, a mild increase in economic activity and the corresponding demand for legal services will be met by a far reduced number of newly qualifieds - look at the drop off in Blackhall entrants. The great cull of 2008 to 2011 will have taken a lot of solicitors out of the profession, and supply and demand will be far closer to equilibrium than it is now.

At present there is an overhang of newly qualifieds who started their TCs in the good times who are now walking the plank on qualification. I would venture to say that this won't be the case in 5 years' time. People who start their TCs in the recession can't possibly qualify into worse economic conditions than when they begun.

Baile an Locha

Hope to do Law and Arts in Maynooth next year,
This thread is extremely honest and i think it's putting me off a career in the legal sector,

D.R cowboy

It's a tough job you have to be ignorant and harsh and tell people where to go, and when your in court you have to go through people even if you know they are right it does not matter your job is simple win at all costs no matter who you hurt and walk on who ever gets in your way

if you can handle the above you are half way there the rest is only paper work

bear17

skyhighflyer wrote: »

Just do the FE-1s, no point doing another degree.

Personally, I can't agree with the above. All of these various threads are themselves proof that there are significant numbers of graduates already out there with up to all 8 FE-1s passed that may ultimately prove to be a waste, given their difficulties in securing apprenticeships. On the other hand, a Masters could really help in forging a career with a law firm. Ultimately, I would advise only doing FE-1s after securing a training contract.

skyhighflyer wrote: »

look at the drop off in Blackhall entrants. The great cull of 2008 to 2011 will have taken a lot of solicitors out of the profession, and supply and demand will be far closer to equilibrium than it is now.

Again, sorry, but I have to disagree, although I admire your optimism! A drop in entrants into Blackhall is due to a sharp contraction in supply, not a fall in demand. Unfortunately, the numbers scrambling to get into Blackhall are increasing even through the "great cull", and even as supply increases new graduates will be lured into joining the queue. Maybe I'm being overly cynical, but the outlook for the Irish legal profession will remain bleak, even as the economy gradually recovers.

skyhighflyer wrote: »

However, I think anyone with a training contract for 2009, 2010 or 2011 is in a relatively strong position. People who start their TCs in the recession can't possibly qualify into worse economic conditions than when they begun.

On this point, I do agree, but these are the privileged few. New graduates like the OP should only apply to firms in the hope of striking lucky. A Plan B is advisable, and may even prove to be a better way of making a career in law in the long-run.

maidhc

bear17 wrote: »

On the other hand, a Masters could really help in forging a career with a law firm. Ultimately, I would advise only doing FE-1s after securing a training contract.

Chicken and egg going on there I'm afraid, you won't get too many offers of contracts unless you are someways near being good to go.


I have a masters, as does half the world. It is even a first class honors one by research, a Mini-PhD for all the world. I have it framed in my office. It looks lovely and has a big red seal. It is of no use as regards my career, but I don't regret doing it as I am very interested in the area.

dats_right

D.R cowboy wrote: »

when your in court you have to go through people even if you know they are right it does not matter your job is simple win at all costs no matter who you hurt and walk on who ever gets in your way

Obviously you have absolutely no knowledge of the profession, because this is completely and totally incorrect. A solicitor, as an Officer of the Court, owes and observes certain professional duties, which most certainly override a 'win at all costs' mentality. Only on American TV is a lawyer willing to foresake absolutely everything to win. For solicitors, whilst our principle duty is unquestionably to our client (even above our own interests), this is not the same thing as win at all costs. Because we also owe a very serious duties to other parties, most notably to the Courts. This duty is principally not to deliberately mislead it and I can assure you this is taken very seriously by practitioners. Clients and cases come and go, but one's professional reputation really is the most valuable thing a solicitor possesses.

eagle_&_bear

D.R cowboy wrote: »

It's a tough job you have to be ignorant and harsh and tell people where to go, and when your in court you have to go through people even if you know they are right it does not matter your job is simple win at all costs no matter who you hurt and walk on who ever gets in your way

if you can handle the above you are half way there the rest is only paper work

absolutely untrue, false and a flagrant breach of any of the codes of ethics. This sort of behaviour is wrong and most certainly not a reflection of what solicitors and barristers do in real court scenarios.

As a practising barrister I can say with a high degree of certainty that this post is offensively wrong. Barristers and solicitors are duty bound to numerous sections in their respective code of ethics and any such breach could has you disbarred, impeached and/or fined.

Both the Law Society and the Kings Inns/Bar Council proscribe serious rules of conduct. On top of that, in criminal matters where you represent the DPP, there is added duties from the DPP's office which you must adhere to aswell.

Who ever this poster is, knows nothing of what they speak of. We wrk in tough environments and deal with the most ugliest of scenarios at times but we have a paramount core value of respect for every person and we treat every person with greater degrees of respect that often times we are shown but we do it with pride and without prejudice.

posters such as this person, with every respect to him, are what gives this profession a bad image.

enry

D.R cowboy wrote: »

It's a tough job you have to be ignorant and harsh and tell people where to go, and when your in court you have to go through people even if you know they are right it does not matter your job is simple win at all costs no matter who you hurt and walk on who ever gets in your way

if you can handle the above you are half way there the rest is only paper work

what?

jimmylawman

Het-Field wrote: »

3 years !

2 @ PGDIP level, 1 @ BL Degree

Was there once an option to do the Dip in one year and the BL in the next year? (So 2 years in total). Is that gone now altogether?

I have primary and masters degrees in unrelated areas (science) and have worked in industry for the last ten years. However personal interests (history, politics, negotiations) and life experiences are attracting me to career in law at this point. I would like get it done as quickly as possible, however have to be realistic that I have other committments. The Kings Inn diploma looks good apart from the number of nights a week (4) which I would struggle with. It only appears to be 8 or 9 hours in total, which I could handle if it was better bunched together, e.g.if they ran it as a full day each Friday or over 2 or 3 longer nights a week or something like that instead.

Would most BL students be relatively young, ie just out of college or would there be many that are changing from other careers / have other commitments?

If I got as fas as the BL I would go full time I think, but getting to that stage is the challenge. What other avenues are open to get in the door there? (apart from the Dip). Thanks

Arsenal1986

Not going down the BL route myself so no expert but as for your concerns over age, I've heard time and again that being young is a distinct disadvantage to being a barrister, that to be in your 30s would certainly be a plus starting out and I imagine its an older age profile then blackhall is anyway

eagle_&_bear

jimmylawman wrote: »

Was there once an option to do the Dip in one year and the BL in the next year? (So 2 years in total). Is that gone now altogether?

I have primary and masters degrees in unrelated areas (science) and have worked in industry for the last ten years. However personal interests (history, politics, negotiations) and life experiences are attracting me to career in law at this point. I would like get it done as quickly as possible, however have to be realistic that I have other committments. The Kings Inn diploma looks good apart from the number of nights a week (4) which I would struggle with. It only appears to be 8 or 9 hours in total, which I could handle if it was better bunched together, e.g.if they ran it as a full day each Friday or over 2 or 3 longer nights a week or something like that instead.

Would most BL students be relatively young, ie just out of college or would there be many that are changing from other careers / have other commitments?

If I got as fas as the BL I would go full time I think, but getting to that stage is the challenge. What other avenues are open to get in the door there? (apart from the Dip). Thanks

hi there,
I don't know if the diploma programme was run over a 1 year period but for the past while it has been run over 2 years: year 1 being foundation and year 2: admission. and then onto the BL course so the shortest route for you would be 3 years

With the way the Diploma programme is run, it doesnt seem possible to run it in a truncated fashion- though I do see the merit in running it as so, however, you will cover pretty much all the same amount of material as you would in the BCL/LLB degrees so you will need that time for study. Your head will only hold so much information.

As for the demographics of BL graduants, in 2008 I'd say a good 50% of the year were 25+. Typical age ranges from 21 upto 58ish. A good few of the year were people who were changing careers or who had retired or taken early leave and decided they wanted a new challenge in life. I think, from my viewpoint, the biggest catchment in age terms was 25-40 that seemed to account for maybe 65% or more of the overall year. Alot of people would have done masters and various other degrees. however, other degrees didnt account for much, some people had PhD's and were lecturing in very notable universities and they didnt pass the exams (14 in total, spread out over 3months).

Other avenues: wel apart from the diploma, (and staying with the Barrister route), you will have to do a recognised law degree - no way around this (if you dont do the diploma) so thats minimum 3 yrs if you go to Griffith College, or do the LLB/BCL in TCD/UCD which is 4 years. Then add your BL year onto it.

So ''quickest'' way is definately the Diploma route through the Kings Inns. Griffith do the same diploma too but its not recognised for the entrance exams- recognised elsewhere though.

colbags

Hi there.. i thought mine was a unique situation but apparently not!

I am in my final yr of a BA in Business Studies(finance) from a reputable university. However I would like to go on to the law society to the fe1s... it has been what i have wanted for a long time but kind of just stumbled in to the business course. I am a very driven person with the points for law (although i know that with a degree this will not be an issue). I just ended up doing the business course due to another series of events not to be mentioned here. I have been considering the llb and have also been looking at the 1 year prep courses. Would i be mad to go to do the LLB over three years if i could just do a prep course. One of the motivations for doing the llb is (as i have heard before) a lack of respect in the legal world for those without a law degree. Im 21 years old. Is it too late to go starting an llb when i would be 24/25 taking the FE1s. (im sure it isnt that old on average for people taking them, Im more concerned from a financial point of view going for so long without a full-time job).

Another thought would be that because of the current climate, doing the llb and working p-t might be as good an option as any... considering there is very little work around for the next few years. This would involve moving back "home" to where my parents are now living (galway), originally form Dublin. Basically the queation is "is an approved law degree much better than a prep course once you have the FE1s".

I also have a couple of contacts in the field already.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

eagle_&_bear

See the other thread on this topic but doing the prep course will fast-track you through all 8 topics required to enter the Law Society.

Would you stand a better advantage having undertaken the LLB? Technically no.

Would undertaking the LLB or BCL make things easier for you when your doing a 12week prep/cram course as opposed to doing topics over 3-4years? yes.

but some people are mentally very proficient at compartmentalising and organising. If you are to go straight to the prep course, and I'd say this for anyone else skipping a law degree or the diploma, give the 12 weeks everything you've got. It will require you putting everything else off for that time period, for some that might even include work. You will have alot more of the basic foundational work to do but, it is very do-able and once you pass the FE1's and get a placement, you'll fly from there

so its a personal choice. I would think if you were not organised and focused to make the 12 weeks work supremely well for you, then you might consider either the Diploma in Legal Studies for 1 or 2 years (in Griffith or the Kings Inns) or doing the LLB/BCL

Its really a personal choice but you wont ''lose out'' per se, but it is a slightly harder road but everything you need to know, without omission, will be covered in the prep course and you'll have the typed manuals from day 1 to read, annote, and ask questions from.

johnnyskeleton

eagle_&_bear wrote: »

From our 1st ''welcome'' day and I have to say everyone is really lovely down there but we're told that only 1 in 5 people now will be here in 5 years time

That's nothing new - they've been spouting that line for years now. If that were the case then there would only be 1/5 of the people who qualified before 2005 still practising.

There are, by my estimation, in the region of 60 barristers who were called in 2004 still in practice, from a call of just over 100. There are a few caveats to using this as a guide:
1) not all those who qualified in 2004 commenced practice in that year
2) equally, not all who qualified that year ever went into practice
3) the fact that they are still members of the law library does not mean that they have a good practice.

However, the minimum we can infer from this is that of those who started practising 5 years ago (and we'll assume that those who didn't start practice in 2004 & 2005 are compensated for by those who qualified earlier and started practice in 2004/05), at least half of them are still fully paid up members of the lawlibrary available for work.

I accept that some of those will be lecturers or have boutique practices etc, but at the same time it has to be presumed that the vast majority of them are at least doing enough work to pay their way and some would be doing quite well for themselves.

I suspect that the 1/5 anecdote comes from the days when 10 barristers would qualify in a year and after a few years only 2 would be left. However, in those days, barristers appeared in the High Court, Supreme Court and, if they were a bit stuck for cash, in the Circuit Court. Nowadays barristers not only appear regularly in all the courts but they also appear in tribunals, discipinary bodies and arbitrations. In addition, there is a lot more litigation going around and higher levels of representation.

That is not to say that it will be true for people who joined the law library last year. But equally it should not be assumed that there is no work out there.

Also, as skyhighflier points out, in a few years time there may be more work about than now with less people coming through the system.

One final thought: there was a recession in the late 70s and early 80s, but yet there are many barristers practising today who qualified just as the recession hit. They survived it.

because it takes longer than 5years to establish a base and start getting any sort of work.

I wouldn't say it takes longer than 5 years to start getting any sort of work. Not all barrister work is big high court cases or regular circuit court briefs, and there is a lot of work that is available for barristers in their first 5 years that, in the days of 1/5 surviving, wasn't there previously. District court work, opinions on fairly ropey cases, hit and hope civil claims, EAT/PRTB/RAT hearings, lecturing, tutoring, article writing, devilling in the english sense (i.e. doing paid research for another barrister), research for NGOs under the DPA scheme etc etc. These can also be heavily supplimented by a few decent cases that might come your way every now and again.

In any event, I wouldn't listen to the people who tell you that you will be sitting around reading the paper for 5 years earning absolutely nothing until after year 5 you suddenly start getting lots of nice briefs. I seriously doubt that that is the reality at the bar anymore.