website

puddie77

can anyone tell me what i should be spending on a fairly average website, nothing too fancy please....some of the quote are just ridiclous.

skelliser

what kind of site do you need?
is it a brochure site with just a few pages, info, services contact info.
Or do you need a e-commerce solution, will you be selling stuff online.

kenbrady

puddie77 wrote: »

can anyone tell me what i should be spending on a fairly average website, nothing too fancy please....some of the quote are just ridiclous.

What type of website ? What does it do ?
There are 1000s of web developers all offering the same service.
Always buy the domain name yourself.

puddie77

Its mainly for advertising...no money will be excepted on the site.i should think 3 or 4 pages max.about,contacts,description,gallery..... I've been working in construction industry for approx 15yeras guys so this is the same as looking into a bush as far as knowing anything about websites.

Atlas_IRL

There are numerous ways to do this.

Irish company - You can meet up with them and tell them exactly what you want. I would shop around though as some Irish companies tend to be pricy.

Outsourcing- elance, scriptlance.com , guru.com etc their are alot of them. Post up your details, the price your willing to pay and let the bids role in.

Template DIY - an example This is 65 dollars, buy your domain and server would cost about 100 euro more then change the info around or get someone else to.

You would need search engine optimisation done as well so people find your site in google. You could easily get this site done for less than a grand. 2-300 if you knew what you were doing.

puddie77

thanks atlas, something like that would b A1.. i appreciate that....good man

chowdown

It's worth spending a bit of money on a decent website - you want something you'll be proud to show prospective customers. You'll want it to develop over time so you should select someone to design and develop it who you like - you're going to be working with them quite closely.

If you're not very web-competent you should think of paying someone a monthly retainer to host it and update it for you. It's better to pay an expert than try to do it yourself, if you're likely to make a mess of it.

As you prepare to develop your website, keep a note of sites you really like (and sites you really don't like) so you can hone your thoughts.

http://www.lingscars.com/ <--This, for example, is a terrible website.

J_Wholesale

When you're looking at really cheap prices, you need to be aware of exactly what that means. 200 Euro gets you 4-6 hours work from an average web designer. Even if all you want is a 4 page site, you're not going to get much, and certainly nothing original or impressive, for what amounts to a few hours work.

chowdown wrote: »

http://www.lingscars.com/ <--This, for example, is a terrible website.

It's worth saying that however tacky the above site might look, it's a very successful website. This raises an important issue about website design. It's NEVER about you, or what you like or find attractive. It's about your customers and what works. If tacky works better than artistic, and by works I mean brings in more business, then tacky is the way to go. Of course, that's assuming you want to make a profit.

egan007

kenbrady wrote: »

Always buy the domain name yourself.

I disagree a reputable web design company will advise you on the best domain for you and register it in you name for you. Often clients register their own name without knowing anything about it - including who it's registered with and the access details.

OP - If you are looking from some estimates here then describe you business briefly and what you expect to get from a website.

PCPhoto

chowdown wrote: »

It's worth spending a bit of money on a decent website - you want something you'll be proud to show prospective customers. You'll want it to develop over time so you should select someone to design and develop it who you like - you're going to be working with them quite closely.

If you're not very web-competent you should think of paying someone a monthly retainer to host it and update it for you. It's better to pay an expert than try to do it yourself, if you're likely to make a mess of it.

As you prepare to develop your website, keep a note of sites you really like (and sites you really don't like) so you can hone your thoughts.

http://www.lingscars.com/ <--This, for example, is a terrible website.

or if you have the time to learn/experiment you could save yourself ......it may take a bit longer but there are plenty of tutorials and "how to" ...and most hosting companies offer web-building these days.

be careful with the freelance sites if going that route, theres plenty of people who will literally just get a template and adjust it instead of creating a site for you.

chowdown

Totally agree with all of those points, J_Wholesale.

Employing a very cheap designer is like buying a very cheap car or a pair of very cheap shoes - before long you're going to have to fork out to have them repaired, or pay to bin it.

Think of the website as an investment - sure it's going to be expensive in the short-term and writing the cheque to pay the developer might hurt, but if you get it right, it will soon pay for itself.

There's a terrible sort of beauty to Ling's cars.

egan007

PCPhoto wrote: »

or if you have the time to learn/experiment you could save yourself ......it may take a bit longer but there are plenty of tutorials and "how to" ...and most hosting companies offer web-building these days.

be careful with the freelance sites if going that route, theres plenty of people who will literally just get a template and adjust it instead of creating a site for you.

There is a lot more to makeing a website that brings you more business than arranging pictures and text.

I could buy flower and eggs and make my kids birthday cake but it will all end in tears no matter how good the tutorial is.

egan007

Atlas_IRL wrote: »

You would need search engine optimisation done as well so people find your site in google. You could easily get this site done for less than a grand. 2-300 if you knew what you were doing.

I have a hotel in central dublin - will you make me number 1 in google for 200 euro please.

SiDay

This is really a "how long is a piece of string" question. You can use websites such as getafreelancer.com or elance.com to find someone to do the work for you. In my experience these will be cheap but they will normally be based in India or Pakistan and if you have not had experience of specifying a website and controlling offshore developers any savings might not be worth the cost.

Alternatively you could try to source someone here - word of mouth is obviously the best way but otherwise find websites that you like the look of and contact the designer (most have the designers name at the bottom of the site).

The last alternative is to produce the site yourself, there are many systems available some of which are free. Our open source CMS system iWiccle is developed for unskilled computer operators to use and is completely free - you can create modern looking brochure sites easily but it also comes with built in forums, photo galleries etc. at no charge. PM me for further details or have a look at a website that I produced using iWiccle www.yourowneyes.com - it took me about half a day from scratch.

Good luck

Simon

Atlas_IRL

egan007 wrote: »

I have a hotel in central dublin - will you make me number 1 in google for 200 euro please.

Thats a stupid reply what has that got to do with what i posted

mneylon

Atlas_IRL wrote: »

Thats a stupid reply what has that got to do with what i posted

No it's not.

People charge a lot for SEO in many cases because it's not "easy"

If you want to get ranked in Google for something really odd, then it's not hard.

However if you want to get ranked for a highly competitive term it will take time, money and effort

It's like someone saying that there are hundreds of designers offering the same service. That's not really true.

Is a Mini the same as a Rolls?

LINGsCARS

chowdown wrote: »

http://www.lingscars.com/ <--This, for example, is a terrible website.

Why do people say this sh1t?

Look, I move over £35 million of new cars each year from my "terrible" website. Can the people offering "advice" here say they are 1/10th as successful?

It does not matter about most stuff, what matters is do you get traffic, what your visitors/customers think and do people transact and do you make money.

All the rest is total BS. So do what you want to do, but whatever, realise WHY your customers transact. It is not rocket science.

But, boring them to death with a "professional" and "clean" and "smart" website will not usually help. You need some stickiness and reasons for visitors to a) refer, b) return.

Ling

RoadKillTs

http://www.lingscars.com/ <--This, for example, is a terrible website.

Maybe in some ways but is it making money? Thats the real question.
The site grows on you after a while


Hi Ling! Welcome to boards. Really enjoyed you on the Dragons Den. You did well.

Atlas_IRL

Blacknight wrote: »

No it's not.

People charge a lot for SEO in many cases because it's not "easy"

If you want to get ranked in Google for something really odd, then it's not hard.

However if you want to get ranked for a highly competitive term it will take time, money and effort

It's like someone saying that there are hundreds of designers offering the same service. That's not really true.

Is a Mini the same as a Rolls?

If you read my post i said if you know what you are doing you can do it for cheap.

LINGsCARS

RoadKillTs wrote: »

Maybe in some ways but is it making money? Thats the real question.
The site grows on you after a while


Hi Ling! Welcome to boards. Really enjoyed you on the Dragons Den. You did well.

I've been here before

Yes, making money. Just paid £20k Corporation Tax to keep the UK rolling, really pleased to be pi55ing in, not taking out.

That's why it makes me mad that clever knobs seems to think they can dismiss my business in a sentence by posting absolute BS on these boards.

Thanks so much for the welcome RoadKillts

PCPhoto

egan007 wrote: »

There is a lot more to makeing a website that brings you more business than arranging pictures and text.

I could buy flower and eggs and make my kids birthday cake but it will all end in tears no matter how good the tutorial is.

maybe you need to goto cookery school and learn how to do it (not a personal attack - a humourous comment)

there may be a lot more to making a website other than dragging and dropping, but in the OPs case

he/she is looking for "Its mainly for advertising...no money will be excepted on the site.i should think 3 or 4 pages max.about,contacts,description,gallery..... I've been working in construction industry for approx 15yeras guys so this is the same as looking into a bush as far as knowing anything about websites."

which he/she could do themselves by following tutorials and reading books...trial and error and he/she would save a decent amount of money - if they were able to take the time to learn how to do it themselves (it will take longer doing it yourself - but compared to some websites I've seen "professionally" done.... you can get better results yourself)


Once the website is created...its all about advertising - letting people know the site exists. (it doesnt need to be top of Googles list as long as its advertised and people can find it)

zAbbo

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Why do people say this sh1t?

Look, I move over £35 million of new cars each year from my "terrible" website. Can the people offering "advice" here say they are 1/10th as successful?


Ling

You tell em Ling, both your website and Ryanair are great examples of high revenue websites that are a break from the perceived high quality design norm.

And I doubt many if any here are doing 1/100th of your revenue let alone 1/10th

LINGsCARS

zAbbo wrote: »

You tell em Ling, both your website and Ryanair are great examples of high revenue websites that are a break from the perceived high quality design norm.

And I doubt many if any here are doing 1/100th of your revenue let alone 1/10th

Ooooops, thanks zAbbo

Well, I was chatting to Ryanair's Stephen McNamara the other day and we agreed on a lot of web stuff, but... I am nowhere near Ryanair. I am more like a fly, next to their 737.

I do differ to Ryanair on dealing with customer problems, but agree 99% with most stuff they do. They are really very, very good.

tricky D

LINGsCARS wrote: »

That's why it makes me mad that clever knobs seems to think they can dismiss my business in a sentence by posting absolute BS on these boards.

People are dismissing your site because of the lack of visual design and that's not clever at all. The design is only a part of the bigger picture - the doing business bit. Visual design of a website is no guarantee of doing any business and it's doing business profitably which puts the roof over the head, food on the table and so on. Sure the design and look and feel of your site will not win any awards, who cares, you're making sales and money. The other thing about your business that people miss while they snigger is your branding: eccentric, extrovert, unafraid (no problem for you to come here to defend yourself), quirky, etc. but very memorable, visible, well advertised, with enough trust.

When it comes to visual design, people seem to forget that the most successful site out there has the simplest and most basic visual design out there with 30ish words a simple logo and a textbox and the most basic and untreated results listings. They make billions.

Keep posting here please, Ling.

LINGsCARS

Yes, most important, my site has to put food on the table for 10 people (my staff) and me and my family.

I agree, most people just give a view based on the most flimsy of visual scans of a site, and justify it by thinking everyone acts like them. It is a bit like the difference between the interest I take in Newcastle United and a real hardcore fan takes. My opinion on Newcastle United is not worth anything.

However, if you need a car, you will probably take more time and become emotionally bonded to my website (or Ryanair's if you need a flight) than if you are just "reviewing" it. It's not rocket science.

mneylon

Atlas_IRL wrote: »

If you read my post i said if you know what you are doing you can do it for cheap.

I read your post and I would disagree.

Tony255

anyway back on topic OP what are some of the prices that you were quoted if it is as simple and you just want a site for business cards etc I think you could get what you are looking for, for well under €500 and it will be done by a professional company. I have one in mind they designed my site and they really are great to deal with.

Getting traffic to the site is a different story, this is where the real money comes in. If you are looking for a top position in google for the term "Brick layer" then you may need to spend a lot of money to get your site up to the top of the list when the customer types in that term.

Do you want to have the site to give yourself some exposure so that people will pick you for Jobs as if so there are a lot of trades people finders out there at the moment that may work out cheaper for you.

tomED

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Why do people say this sh1t?

Because it is! :P

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Look, I move over £35 million of new cars each year from my "terrible" website. Can the people offering "advice" here say they are 1/10th as successful?

I think it's safe to say, your success isn't down to your website, but your business model. I'm not sure how much the car leasing industry is worth in the UK, but I would hazard a guess that 35m of new cars (before the crash) is a small % of the overall market?? Would I be right??

LINGsCARS wrote: »

It does not matter about most stuff, what matters is do you get traffic, what your visitors/customers think and do people transact and do you make money.

I agree with you on this, which is why I'm still a little shocked that you don't do more with your site to improve how people interact with your website. You've clearly figured out that this is what it's all about, so why not improve your site??

Being completely honest, there would only be one reason why I'd ever go back to your website - if there was no hope of me getting a better deal anywhere else. Just like Ryanair!

LINGsCARS wrote: »

So do what you want to do, but whatever, realise WHY your customers transact. It is not rocket science.

100% agree - so what's your secret then?

If you're not the cheapest on the market and there is room for improvement in terms of attracting new business, why not take advice from a pro - I can guarentee that they could help you improve your turnover!

Thanks for stopping by, by the way!

LINGsCARS

tomED wrote: »

Because it is! :P

Hahahaha! Which rule book do you subscribe to, the 2 font in grey text with clean interface and "about us" type menus?

tomED wrote: »

I think it's safe to say, your success isn't down to your website, but your business model. I'm not sure how much the car leasing industry is worth in the UK, but I would hazard a guess that 35m of new cars (before the crash) is a small % of the overall market?? Would I be right??

Disagree, very few (if any in the world) other companies who have leasing websites of variously boring degrees enjoy this volume. They all have the same business model: Put a customer into a car, take a commission on the supply of the car from the car supplier.

Yes, volume is a very small % of a mature market. But then, I am not looking for world domination (yet).

And hey, "before the crash" kind of indicates I am in decline, right? Hmmm, latter half of 2009 and my revenue per car is up 33% on the last 3-year average. ie: Revenue per car is highest it has ever been, thanks. And my accounts just filed on 31st Dec with companies house show an INCREASE in turnover and profit on the previous year and my cash position is much higher (not with ICESAVE thank God, my cash reserves reside with the safest building society in the UK, the Stafford Railway BSoc. Laugh at the BSoc name, but you will soon stop if you do a bit of research about it). So, less of this "before the crash", chum. I was wearing a seatbelt and have an airbag size pile of cash to avoid a bust nose. I swerved around it

tomED wrote: »

I agree with you on this, which is why I'm still a little shocked that you don't do more with your site to improve how people interact with your website. You've clearly figured out that this is what it's all about, so why not improve your site??

Well, I must say I have more interaction from my website with visitors and customers than any other car leasing (and most other) websites. A lot of my customer interaction is subject to data protection and is on my secure server so is not visible but is in excess of 500 LINGO messages a day (at an average response time of less than 5 minutes, try THAT with any other car supplier)... honestly, I interact and talk to more visitors than any other car business website in the UK.

If by "improving" my site, you mean applying the "standard" design "rules" (sorry about all the """), I would rather go swimming in the iced Tyne than have a more conventional offering. Maybe I am in front, not behind the design/interaction curve... have you considered that?

Other car leasing websites have NO interaction at all (except "ring 0800 112233 for details"). Whereas everything I do is designed to increase interaction with human beings in my target demographic, whether that is old people applying for free Werther's, getting a free cash bribe, applying free FUKU noodles, playing my quiz (win a car), playing hang-a-car-dealer, watching my office CCTV 3 webcams, moaning, commenting, asking quotes, requesting free 1st aid kit (customers only), chatting online, uploading contact pics on my customer LINGO, sending/reading customer poetry, watching dozens of videos, getting PX quotes, getting insurance quotes, joining car update list, watching my live Customer Google Maps, or live website visitors moving around in realtime on the website and making them dance the (now deceased RIP) JamJar/RBS dance in Camp Ling - my online visitor detention camp..., or my 1,300 customer letters (fully attributed and replied to), or making me climb down and jump back up on my header... I mean sometimes I spend whole days just interacting! Apart from online car-sex (now there is an idea Tom) I struggle to find more stuff to do.

tomED wrote: »

Being completely honest, there would only be one reason why I'd ever go back to your website - if there was no hope of me getting a better deal anywhere else. Just like Ryanair!

That's not what most people say. Although I do attempt to offer the very best deals. Also the very best service and reliability. I have 100,000 uniques a month, and many of them don't return again and again to have a new car, as the car buying cycle is so long (maybe 3 or 4 years). Largely it is to be entertained/enjoy stuff, just as I log on to Ryanair news page every day to see the latest "lunacy" from that mental Irishman O'Leary.

Swap "lease cars" for "TV news": If people just wanted dry information, they would not watch TV news, but just get teletext. TV news would be in North Korean format. But it is not, the first objective is to entertain and then to effectively impart information. By entertaining or causing a brain reaction, it is possible to convey more information more effectively. ...First you need to open people's minds: ask any schoolteacher.

People don't want to be told "it's cold and snowy", they want to see people crashing, roads blocked, kids sledging, people slipping, snow pouring on to a reporter's head. It is the same with cars.... of course they want a price, but they also enjoy a bit of Top Gear.

Of course, if I was wrong about this, the whole information/media industry is wrong too. I assert that website design and internet presentation in general is WAY BEHIND the ball on this. Maybe the BBC should simply list all the news on their site in a plain manner, maybe they should restrict their info to the necessary core info? By making their site wonderfully diverse and interactive and broad, the BBC are dominating the information website arena to howls of complaints... they know how to do it. Look at how Murdoch et al are screaming, because they cannot create enough of their own traffic to sustain their business models. The same applies to car leasing websites (in a much smaller way).

tomED wrote: »

100% agree - so what's your secret then?

Being a human being (albeit deeply flawed). There are not many human beings available when you surf business websites. It is not about the cars. If it was, every other car leasing site would have equivalent traffic/interaction (as the range of cars is exactly the same, the only differentiator is price and service. A Ford Focus 1.6 is a Ford Focus 1.6 I am afraid). People want to ENJOY... in their lunchbreak at work... not get dry info (and not very good info) that most other car leasing websites provide.

tomED wrote: »

If you're not the cheapest on the market and there is room for improvement in terms of attracting new business, why not take advice from a pro - I can guarentee that they could help you improve your turnover!

So why not simply offer the advice to all the other car leasing firms, and let them beat me? Or start a site yourself and move £70m of cars a year? This "I can improve your site/turnover/profit/visitor" line is familiar. It always comes from people who do not have a site with anything like the turnover/profit/visitor numbers. No offence

tomED wrote: »

Thanks for stopping by, by the way!

Pleasure, thanks for the considered opinion, but you should know I will not agree with conventional wisdom. All the other car leasing sites have conventional wisdom and look at their numbers. They rely on teams of telephone operatives and offline methods, and their websites are largely uselessly conventional.

Have you noticed I do not have a large "ring 0800 11122233" graphic? My business is conducted almost exclusively online with a massive back-end (oooo errrr) secure LINGO CRM system which is so good, BT Business/Nat West just gave me the 2009 award for IT and Communications, at The Dorchester, from Mrs Brown. Read my customer >1300 testimonials online, to see what they think of it. Customers matter, not conventional wisdom and web "rules".

Take aspirin and give it another go.

I should charge a F88king fortune for this... hahaha! But, you Irish, you need every assistance at the moment (UK not far behind, agreed). So, in an act of charity to The Free State, I give you the above for free.

The opportunity to do something stunning on the web is tantalisingly possible for anyone. But without unplugging your brain from all the conventional "rules", you have no chance IMHO.

Ling

J_Wholesale

Just like to say, the response to Lings posts here is typical of business forums everywhere. Business forums are probably the single most conservative forums on the internet. If you suggest a business idea that is not already well established and saturated, you'll be shot down. If you dare to question the 'established' wisdom of the day, you'll be laughed out the door. If your online business is successful (even very successful), and you don't do things the 'proper' way, you'll be ridiculed, regardless of that success.

What do you think would have happened if the founders of Facebook had started talking about their ideas on business forums beforehand, or during the development or very early launch stage? They would have run away with their tails between their legs - the very idea of another MySpace!

The one constant on the internet is change, and it's almost never change in the direction that 'established' wisdom thinks it's going to be. It's the guys who are doing everything differently, who don't buy into the this-is-the-way-it's-done crap, who are always at the forefront of that change.

If you're running your online business just like everyone says you should; if you're crossing all the appropriate Ts and never get shot down on forums like this; then you're really not qualified to comment on anyone who does things differently.

Be different, guys. Just my 10c. (Wasted, no doubt.)

tomED

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Hahahaha! Which rule book do you subscribe to, the 2 font in grey text with clean interface and "about us" type menus?

Not at all! Clarity is the word, clear call to actions, with little clutter.

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Disagree, very few (if any in the world) other companies who have leasing websites of variously boring degrees enjoy this volume. They all have the same business model: Put a customer into a car, take a commission on the supply of the car from the car supplier.

Yeah that's my point - there's something quirky and interesting about your website, but it's not the design. I'm not talking about changing what I would call your business model (the quirkiness, funny side etc).

I'm talking about taking all that fun and presenting it better. That doesn't mean dressing it up in a suit - it simply means bringing more clarity to the site.

As far as I'm concerned that's why your site works.

LINGsCARS wrote: »

And hey, "before the crash" kind of indicates I am in decline, right? Hmmm, latter half of 2009 and my revenue per car is up 33% on the last 3-year average. ie: Revenue per car is highest it has ever been, thanks.

I wouldn't have thought that no - for leasing I imagine there has been an increase with people still wanting new cars, but not willing or can't get a loan from a bank.

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Well, I must say I have more interaction from my website with visitors and customers than any other car leasing (and most other) websites. A lot of my customer interaction is subject to data protection and is on my secure server so is not visible but is in excess of 500 LINGO messages a day (at an average response time of less than 5 minutes, try THAT with any other car supplier)... honestly, I interact and talk to more visitors than any other car business website in the UK.

Yep I would have thought that - my point is, you could make it easier for people to interact with your website. People are interacting because the find the site interesting and there's obviously a communtiy buzz about the site. I'm talking about harnessing that and growing it.

LINGsCARS wrote: »

If by "improving" my site, you mean applying the "standard" design "rules" (sorry about all the """), I would rather go swimming in the iced Tyne than have a more conventional offering. Maybe I am in front, not behind the design/interaction curve... have you considered that?

LOL - but absolutely not no.

LINGsCARS wrote: »

I mean sometimes I spend whole days just interacting!

ABSOLUTELY!!! And I would never ever change that!! That is obviously one of the key reasons why people interact with the site and come back for more!

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Apart from online car-sex (now there is an idea Tom) I struggle to find more stuff to do.

LOL

LINGsCARS wrote: »

So why not simply offer the advice to all the other car leasing firms, and let them beat me? Or start a site yourself and move £70m of cars a year? This "I can improve your site/turnover/profit/visitor" line is familiar. It always comes from people who do not have a site with anything like the turnover/profit/visitor numbers. No offence

How about this !!!??

I'll get a site built as I see it should be, let me take all the best bits from your site and get you to be the face behind it.

All you have to do is interact with the customers as you do on your current website and guide as to what content to fill the site with. We'll do the rest then we plit it 50/50? :P

Open to a lower split cut for me

Seriously though (i am serious on above actuall!) - your model works - that's clear, but business owners like you are far and few between. I meet clients every week and try to get them to engage with customers online, even through something as simple as Twitter, but they just can't do it.

You've got that skill and talent in abundance and you've been able to use it to your advantage. You know what it takes to get people to engage with you and you know how to meet them on their level, which is excellent!

But my point is, if you've only got a small % of the market, your revenues could be increased by making a few usuability and design feature changes to your website. The model - should not be changed - anyone that is telling you that you should, is missing the point!

tomED

J_Wholesale wrote: »

Just like to say, the response to Lings posts here is typical of business forums everywhere. Business forums are probably the single most conservative forums on the internet. If you suggest a business idea that is not already well established and saturated, you'll be shot down. If you dare to question the 'established' wisdom of the day, you'll be laughed out the door. If your online business is successful (even very successful), and you don't do things the 'proper' way, you'll be ridiculed, regardless of that success.

I think you've missed the point. No-one shot his business model down - they said his website is poor. Major difference.

J_Wholesale wrote: »

What do you think would have happened if the founders of Facebook had started talking about their ideas on business forums beforehand, or during the development or very early launch stage? They would have run away with their tails between their legs - the very idea of another MySpace!

Facebook wasn't even close to MySpace when it started. It had a different model completely. Facebook has evolved greatly from it's early days and it still takes the best of other sites to improve usability for it's users. Just look at the way they brought in the Twitter like status updates.

J_Wholesale wrote: »

The one constant on the internet is change, and it's almost never change in the direction that 'established' wisdom thinks it's going to be. It's the guys who are doing everything differently, who don't buy into the this-is-the-way-it's-done crap, who are always at the forefront of that change.

Absolutely - the web will continue to change and what we do today, will be completely different than what we do in 20 years time. But the changes will be around how we interact with the internet. However, the fundemental techniques of how you get people to "use" your website or whatever it is in 20 years will not. For example, we will always have to tell the website to do something...

J_Wholesale wrote: »

If you're running your online business just like everyone says you should; if you're crossing all the appropriate Ts and never get shot down on forums like this; then you're really not qualified to comment on anyone who does things differently.

Be different, guys. Just my 10c. (Wasted, no doubt.)

Again, I think you're missing the point. It's not about doing everything the same as everyone else. Let me think of a better analogy...

How about a car, since we're talking about Lings site ....

After the Robin Reliant, I think most people would agree that 4 is better than 3. It's not that no-one wants a 3 wheel car, there certainly some that would still love them - but a car simply works better with 4 wheels. They will continue to improve everything else, but fundemental things just won't change.

Same with a website (or any piece of software or equipment), if you can make it as easy as possible for people to use, combined with a brilliant product - people will enjoy using it.

So it's not that everyone wants you to "conform", they are just trying to guide you as to the best approach - they're not telling you what you must do.

I could never tell anyone how to run their business, but I could tell them how they can get the most from their web presence. With all my clients it's a two way thing. I learn from them and they learn from me. But without a solid base of knowledge on what does and doesn't work, we simply wouldn't get anywhere.

LINGsCARS

OK, well...

My current website has developed over years into quite a monster, glued together by some bits of work-around god awful code, but it works. But I don't quite agree that "easiness" for users is the answer. I want customers to expend some effort actually. If someone is really in the market for a car, they will put effort in. I like effort.

I do understand that is counter-intuitive, but I do see my website as polarising and filtering out some customers. I want people who are "onside" with me, not ones who have an annoyance all the time and get a car despite my website. Just as you wonder why some people fly with Ryanair then all they do is moan constantly about everything. Go with BA then (and get ripped off, but enjoy the "free" coffee). O'Leary should apply a banner "You get a cheap punctual flight, now shut the f**k up" - I would instantly buy a ticket if that was splashed across the Ryanair site.

I do my filtering in a different way, which means people just don't apply if they "hate" my site.

I am building LINGO2 (the engine behind my customer interaction and CRM) and that will enable me to create many different website templates (indeed, to create white label sites, or 3rd part affiliate sites) and it will be very configurable.

Maybe then, I will run several versions, maybe give users a slider control to allow them to slide it between "boring" and "mentalist".

It is all a fine line, as no one can be sure why anything works. Much is human nature. I know if you split test relentlessly it can lead a site into a lowest common denominator route, and I don't want that.

I am quite pleased that many people dislike my site as it means many people actively like it, too. It causes the polarisation. I would hate to be acceptable to all. I want to be like Marmite. Marmite could potentially be watered down or sugared up so more people liked it, but would ruin it. It would not be Marmite. If I was appealing to everyone, I would not be Ling.

Bear in mind that everything is basically built by me and three part-time Sunderland uni students, and I am running the business too, so it is not a massively resourced operation. I don't want to lose that immediate, live-developed touch (that occasionally crashes my server as we once again divide by zero or forget a semi-colon) But, it is all live, so we press "save" and pray. However, that gives a great feeling to customers as we change stuff on the fly, instantly. It is brave (read: stupid) and alive.

But, no split, no deal. Ask Ryanair if they are up for a split in exchange for a new site (I think I know what O'Leary will suggest).

steve_oh

the thread has kind of gone off track a little. The point everyone is trying to make is this...ask yourself how does the site add value to your business. How can you use the internet to make more money. Is there a niche in your market that you can fill through clever use of cyberspace? talk to an internet marketing advisor. If your building a high end brand then maybe you should think fancy design - most likely you will can get away with something basic that you have the ability to update so you can react to feedback you get from your visitors. Use google analytics to see what your visitors are clicking on or not clicking on and use your common sense to change stuff around and make your message clearer. All you really need for a website is a white background and black text. Warren Buffet is one of the world richest men and leader of Berkshire Hathaway (they're even bigger than Lings Cars) check out thheir website You can do it all for free if you have the time to learn - if you'd rather let someone else do the awkward stuff for you then you can get a nice 5 page site and a consultation with a savvy internet marketing guy for around €300. Dont just get a site coz you everyone else seems to have one. Most sites are dead in the water. Good luck

LINGsCARS

tomED wrote: »

Same with a website (or any piece of software or equipment), if you can make it as easy as possible for people to use, combined with a brilliant product - people will enjoy using it.

A Toyota Corolla or Nissan Sunny used to be easy-to-use cars, but honestly, did anyone enjoy using them?

Chatting up an ugly girl is easy, but not as enjoyable or worth as much as succeeding with a pretty one.

Flying to the moon was not as easy as orbiting the earth, but it was the challenge and difficulty that made it great and made it a far more enjoyable achievement.

Speaking Chinese is not easy, but visiting China after learning it is far better than taking the easier route of visiting China and asking everyone to please speak English.

I don't agree with the "easy as possible" theory, it would have been easier to continue to travel by ship than to get to the stage of building and flying Boeing 747s, but I am glad they chose the harder option.

It's not easy to get the money together to buy a Ferrari, but for some people that's more rewarding than driving a Fiesta all their lives. That's where I am coming from.

There has to be an element of effort for the customer, so they get the pleasurable feeling of reward.

LINGsCARS

steve_oh wrote: »

Most sites are dead in the water.

True.

And it's not the site, it's getting the visitors (then doing something for them) that is the hard bit.

Axwell

This thread has gone wayyyy off topic..can I suggest whoever organises them maybe get Ling (if shes interested) to do a down the well thread where people can ask questions etc. They were being done up to recently and with all the off thread chat here im sure theres plenty of questions.

LINGsCARS

Axwell wrote: »

This thread has gone wayyyy off topic..can I suggest whoever organises them maybe get Ling (if shes interested) to do a down the well thread where people can ask questions etc. They were being done up to recently and with all the off thread chat here im sure theres plenty of questions.

Oooops sorry.

But do you care? The original question was rather errr... simple (no offence). At least the topic has been brightened up.

Axwell

Well it would serve the forum better if people got to do a Q&A down the well session if you were interested. Other members have done them before and they have been quite interesting. Im sure people have plenty of questions and debtating over a website in someone elses thread wouldnt be near as interesting as being able to put other business questions to you in a Q & A format.

shoutman

Ling check your pm's when you get the chance, top right hand corner of the page.

And everybody please stop going off topic.

Thanks

LINGsCARS

shoutman wrote: »

Ling check your pm's when you get the chance, top right hand corner of the page.

And everybody please stop going off topic.

Thanks

Ooooops, I have been told off L:)

tomED

How has it gone off topic? Do you not think the conversation just evolved?

If the conversation isn't allowed to evolve - why not split the thread into a new one, instead of stemming the conversation? Just a thought!!?

LINGsCARS wrote: »

OK, well...
If I was appealing to everyone, I would not be Ling.

It's a fact in this life that more people will NOT like you, rather than like you. Just let me reiterate, it's not you or the content that is wrong with your website!

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Ask Ryanair if they are up for a split in exchange for a new site (I think I know what O'Leary will suggest).

You've compared your site to Ryanair's a number of times now, but they are completely different. Ryanair have most market share, people use them because they are the cheapest (most of the time).

People use your website for a completely different reason.

LINGsCARS wrote: »

A Toyota Corolla or Nissan Sunny used to be easy-to-use cars, but honestly, did anyone enjoy using them?

Well firstly, they sold a lot of cars - but I don't think that's a good analogy. People connected with this car, not sure it was because of it's ease of use though.

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Flying to the moon was not as easy as orbiting the earth, but it was the challenge and difficulty that made it great and made it a far more enjoyable achievement.

Another terrible analogy - you've got a website - you are not doing anything innovative with it - in fact it looks like a site that was built in the late 90s.

LINGsCARS wrote: »

I don't agree with the "easy as possible" theory, it would have been easier to continue to travel by ship than to get to the stage of building and flying Boeing 747s, but I am glad they chose the harder option.

Again, another terrible analogy. People didn't BUY a plane to fly, plane's were built for only a select few to fly them. Everyone else just sits on the plane and travels in one. Not many can fly one, because ... it's not easy!!!!!!!!

LINGsCARS wrote: »

There has to be an element of effort for the customer, so they get the pleasurable feeling of reward.

Yes, but there are many more people that will get extrememly frustrated with a hard to use a website, than that of an easy to use website.

steve_oh wrote: »

All you really need for a website is a white background and black text. Warren Buffet is one of the world richest men and leader of Berkshire Hathaway (they're even bigger than Lings Cars) check out thheir website

I agreed with everything up until this!

Warren Buffet clearly didn't make his money from the web... Secondly, most businesses will need more than a site with a white background and black text!

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Ooooops, I have been told off L:)

Well you do talk a lot don't you! :P

LINGsCARS

tomED wrote: »

Well you do talk a lot don't you! :P

Hahaha, we will be told off by the mods again. I agree the conversation evolving is good, but some people like to keep it narrow - for me that is a bit boring. Especially as the original post was a bit ...duhhhhhhhhhh.

Agree I am nothing like Ryanair (I am like a fly to their 737s in scale and success), but, (folklore excepted) Ryanair and me are similar in that we both want the very best service (maybe for different reasons). But efficiency is one of them we share. It is cheaper to get it right and on balance Ryanair manage that more than any other airline. Problem they have is their lack of understanding (which to be fair they make very public) if things go wrong outside their control. In my case I retain the blame and spend ages working like hell to make good any problems with cars. Again to be fair, I think Ryanair do A LOT of this, but behind the scenes.

I do like the Ryanair website though, especially for the lack of the usual lying BS most airlines spout (before the rest leave you stranded and lose luggage). Ryanair are not pretending to sell compassion, just a damn good flying bus service.

I appreciate the effort you put in and your comments, Tom. We may not agree on some stuff but we both are fairly committed to what we believe in, I see nothing wrong with this discussion but am happy to roll to mods as it is their forum. Most of our views are fairly close really.

exsitingisinit

PCPhoto wrote: »

or if you have the time to learn/experiment you could save yourself ......it may take a bit longer but there are plenty of tutorials and "how to" ...and most hosting companies offer web-building these days.

be careful with the freelance sites if going that route, theres plenty of people who will literally just get a template and adjust it instead of creating a site for you.

+1

exsitingisinit

<SNIP>

*Deleted due to member being a duplicate re-reg (He had two accounts).*

LINGsCARS

exsitingisinit wrote: »

*quoted post snipped*
[/B]

I disagree with this "clean" theory.

Like a blackboard at school, the best teachers had it absolutely filled with stuff and messy. The best classrooms had loads going on.

Maybe because I am Chinese, I like loads of action and like a busy new york deli kitchen. I don't want a sterile environment.

I think this is ignored... in the rush to neat and clean. You should see my bedroom floor hahahaa!

Agree about the FREE thing - you have to have bloody good content to do subscription. Murdoch is learning that.

tomED

LINGsCARS wrote: »

I appreciate the effort you put in and your comments, Tom. We may not agree on some stuff but we both are fairly committed to what we believe in, I see nothing wrong with this discussion but am happy to roll to mods as it is their forum. Most of our views are fairly close really.

Ditto!

LINGsCARS

Tom, thanks so much for the blog post.

Not sure if you can still blame stuff on "British Oppression" though.

tomED

LINGsCARS wrote: »

Tom, thanks so much for the blog post.

Not sure if you can still blame stuff on "British Oppression" though.

Probably not thread to discuss that! Post a comment on the blog and I'll give you my thoughts!!