Newcomers aren't 'Storytellers'

Penn

Taken from rumours thread (Original credit: wrestlezone.com)

In an interview conducted yesterday by The Manila Standard Today, Smackdown star Batista criticized WWE's younger talent by saying "We're dinosaurs in this age of instant gratification. We are not just athletes, we are also storytellers and I don't see that in the newcomers." He went on to say that he will be "fat and retired" five years from now when asked what his WWE future holds.

Firstly, when was the last time Batista 'told a story'. I honestly can't remember any fued he's had in the past 2 years that actually meant something. Even his heel turn with Rey wasn't that great.

That being said, does he have a point? With the young talent being pushed lately, which do you see as being good storytellers, as well as good wrestlers.

Personally, I see Kofi and The Miz as being the top 2. Kofi's gimmick change has really been fantastic, and I think he can really hold his own. The Miz is brilliant too. Funny, charasmatic, and a good worker in the ring

gimmick

Are newcomers allowed be storytellers? In the last few years, as far as I can see, only those in the upper midcrad/main event players have any sort of gimmick which allows a story be told.

Looking at some of the newcomers around nowadays - the likes of Bourne, Kidd, hell even Seamus, what do we know about them? They are not allowed do much more than their 3+ minute match allows.

This is not helped either that by during the low card matches, the commentators are more interested in getting over the main event of the evening than they are of getting over whats actually happening in the ring at that moment. Good example being on last weeks Smackdown, during the "from The Vault" between Yang & Helms, all the commentators spoke about was the upcoming Cage match between Taker and Batista. Why should we car aboutr what is happening when tose who are supposed to be getting the talent over clearly don't.

geeky

It's a bit like reading after hours 'innit? 'he's an irritating w@nker and should really take a look in the mirror, but he has a point...'

I think the Miz tells a good story - perhaps Punk too. Aside from that, it's hard to really think of anyone. Jomo and Kofi (and Jeff Hardy before them) got over with their sheer athleticism and crazy spots. There are plenty of guys with potential but it's hard to care about what happens to them - which is really the litmus test.Remember Drew McIntyre's 'I hate Ireland because you adopted the Euro' promo at the point last year? Lame, I say. Lame.

As for the great red hope, Sheamus hasn't had enough time yet to build a real feud. Does Randy Orton count as a newer star?

gimmick

Orton held his first world title in 2004, and has held it plenty times since. He has headlined Wrestlemania 3 times (once really but WWE will tell you 3) so no, he cannot be deemed a new star.

Penn

geeky wrote: »

It's a bit like reading after hours 'innit? 'he's an irritating w@nker and should really take a look in the mirror, but he has a point...'

waltersobchak

Just because Batista is an OAP and a Grandfather doesnt make him a wrestling veteran.. The only time he's ever "told a story" in the ring is whenever hes wrestled someone better than him.. seriously Pot,Kettle and Black

geeky

In both TNA and WWE, the situation reminds me of the late 80s/early 90s when Vince was trying to pack Hogan/Savage/etc. off and hoping that the next big draw would emerge. Meanwhile, the aging stars were holding down the supposed new breed on the grounds that they 'weren't ready'.*

As we know, it was age and falling-outs rather than some bright new star emerging that eventually let WWF transition to a new generation.

* Yeah, that's a simplified outline, I know!

Angron

gimmick wrote: »

Orton held his first world title in 2004, and has held it plenty times since. He has headlined Wrestlemania 3 times (once really but WWE will tell you 3) so no, he cannot be deemed a new star.

Yeah, I don't really count his loss to Mysterio in that triple threat a headline, cause that match was all about Rey.

waltersobchak

geeky wrote: »

In both TNA and WWE, the situation reminds me of the late 80s/early 90s when Vince was trying to pack Hogan/Savage/etc. off and hoping that the next big draw would emerge. Meanwhile, the aging stars were holding down the supposed new breed on the grounds that they 'weren't ready'.*

As we know, it was age and falling-outs rather than some bright new star emerging that eventually let WWF transition to a new generation.

* Yeah, that's a simplified outline, I know!

Very good analogy.. obviously WWE think/want Cena to be that transitional star to usher in wrestling next golden age.. That still remains to be seen.

JP Liz

Botchista is useless on the mic and bad in the ring no doubt he will gone from WWE by the end of 2010

Punk was great last year since he went heel hope it continues for 2010 but he is counted as a newcomer

flahavaj

Wasn't Batista referring to telling a story in the ring ie in the context of a match rather than storytlling with a wrestler's character.

While he was never a great proponent of that himself, he does have a point. Quite a lot of modern wrestlers have no clue how to construct a match or tell a story within a match. Guys like Danielson, Punk and Orton would be the exception rather than the rule in modern times in this case. For many young wrestlers a match is a series of moves rather than a means to tell a story that draws the audience in.

Personally I call it "Kurt Angle syndrome".:pac:

geeky

flahavaj wrote: »

Wasn't Batista referring to telling a story in the ring ie in the context of a match rather than storytlling with a wrestler's character.

While he was never a great proponent of that himself, he does have a point. Quite a lot of modern wrestlers have no clue how to construct a match or tell a story within a match. Guys like Danielson, Punk and Orton would be the exception rather than the rule in modern times in this case. For many young wrestlers a match is a series of moves rather than a means to tell a story that draws the audience in.

Personally I call it "Kurt Angle syndrome".:pac:

Or the seven deadly steps, as Al Snow brought up earlier in the year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpMZx_euDFY

Now, even allowing for some bitterness - and setting aside his (pretty worthwhile) criticism of the steps themselves - it's pretty disheartening to think that promising wrestlers being taught to put together matches in such a formulaic way. If they are, or were for any sustained period, it might unfortunately explain a lot.

@ Waltersobjack, I think you're right about Cena. Problem is that Vince killed off the 'say your prayers, eat your vitamins' style face a good decade ago. He can't put the genie he unleashed back in the bottle. Cena won't be the man to unite the wrestling world in the same way Hogan or Austin did unless he develops a third dimension as a character.

flahavaj

geeky wrote: »

Or the seven deadly steps, as Al Snow brought up earlier in the year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpMZx_euDFY

Now, even allowing for some bitterness - and setting aside his (pretty worthwhile) criticism of the steps themselves - it's pretty disheartening to think that promising wrestlers being taught to put together matches in such a formulaic way. If they are, or were for any sustained period, it might unfortunately explain a lot.

Makes the case for having outstanding workers like Bret and Steamboat running the developmental territories all the stronger IMO.

geeky

flahavaj wrote: »

Makes the case for having outstanding workers like Bret and Steamboat running the developmental territories all the stronger IMO.

That's true. IIRC Steamboat is a road agent with the E - hopefully he's given some younger talent to work with in that role. As for Bret, well, it's a crying shame that he didn't have the inclination/people skills (whichever it was) to be a booker for a developmental territory or a major promotion.

waltersobchak

flahavaj wrote: »

Makes the case for having outstanding workers like Bret and Steamboat running the developmental territories all the stronger IMO.

i wonder how much of it is to do with young wrestlers going to developmental before they have even developed their own persono/gimmick let alone way too early before they developed their own ring personality/style.. WWE should really set up their developmental like a football acedemy were players get loaned out to other teams.. but instead wrestlers go to European/Japanese/Mexican promotions to gain wider exposure to differant styles of wrestling.. might stop WWE from producing the same generic no hopers

flahavaj

waltersobchak wrote: »

i wonder how much of it is to do with young wrestlers going to developmental before they have even developed their own persono/gimmick let alone way too early before they developed their own ring personality/style.. WWE should really set up their developmental like a football acedemy were players get loaned out to other teams.. but instead wrestlers go to European/Japanese/Mexican promotions to gain wider exposure to differant styles of wrestling.. might stop WWE from producing the same generic no hopers

This.

Its no conincidence the finest in ring technicians of this generation, Benoit, Eddy, Guerrero plied their trade and hined their skills in Japan and to a lesser extent Mexico before hitting the bigtime in America.

EVERY young wrestler should spend time in Japan, if only to witness the discilpline and sheer torture the young Japanese wrestlers go through just to make the grade in the dojos.

waltersobchak

flahavaj wrote: »

This.

Its no conincidence the finest in ring technicians of this generation, Benoit, Eddy, Guerrero plied their trade and hined their skills in Japan and to a lesser extent Mexico before hitting the bigtime in America.

EVERY young wrestler should spend time in Japan, if only to witness the discilpline and sheer torture the young Japanese wrestlers go through just to make the grade in the dojos.

How many wrestlers bar Mysterio/Jericho/Punk can say that in WWE now?but i wonder how much of it is WWE just caring about "the Look" rather than skill or even professionalism, its probably most young wrestlers desire to get to FCW and hope the rest falls into place.

geeky

waltersobchak wrote: »

i wonder how much of it is to do with young wrestlers going to developmental before they have even developed their own persono/gimmick let alone way too early before they developed their own ring personality/style.. WWE should really set up their developmental like a football acedemy were players get loaned out to other teams.. but instead wrestlers go to European/Japanese/Mexican promotions to gain wider exposure to differant styles of wrestling.. might stop WWE from producing the same generic no hopers

Ah now, we know nothing will ever stop that :rolleyes:

It's the elephant in the room, 'innit? Without outstanding creative talent, WWE right now is in a much more difficult position trying to create its own stars and personalities after snapping them up at a young age, rather than picking and luring the best to the company. Sure, the current setup means they don't have to pay top dollar, but you know what they say about when you pay peanuts...

eg: Hogan got to experiment and go around Japan, Flair left it very late coming to WWE, Hart worked Stampede, Puerto Rico and elsewhere, Michaels refined his ring style in the territories, Foley found his character after a lot of searching around America and Japan (he'd have probably never gotten a chance today), Austin developed the bad-ass trash talking in ECW after 'stunning' Steve crashed out of WCW. The only comparable star who was WWE-reared 'from the bottle' was The Rock, and he's an exceptionally charismatic performer. Even he had to find his own feet after being saddled with a gimmick that literally made people chant 'die Rocky die'. Don't think they can count on digging up another 'Rock' more than once or twice in a generation.

geeky

Hehe... reading the posts above, I think this may turn into a 'how long can we keep a thread going when we're all in agreement' challenge...

So if it's fairly obvious that WWE's current developmental set-up is a problem for nurturing new talent, what's the solution? Unfortunately, I don't think the football academy solution would fly, simply because the potential for career-ending/delaying injury is so high in wrestling. If a kid's genuinely any good, they'd be understandably reluctant about sending him off to ply his trade in backwood hardcore matches.

flahavaj

geeky wrote: »

Hehe... reading the posts above, I think this may turn into a 'how long can we keep a thread going when we're all in agreement' challenge...

So if it's fairly obvious that WWE's current developmental set-up is a problem for nurturing new talent, what's the solution? Unfortunately, I don't think the football academy solution would fly, simply because the potential for career-ending/delaying injury is so high in wrestling. If a kid's genuinely any good, they'd be understandably reluctant about sending him off to ply his trade in backwood hardcore matches.

They rarely if ever have this kind of thing in Japan/Mexico in fairness. Looks like we're not all in agrement anymore.:pac:

waltersobchak

Well the next Stone Cold is probably going to struggle to find his niche in FCW thats for sure..

geeky

flahavaj wrote: »

They rarely if ever have this kind of thing in Japan/Mexico in fairness. Looks like we're not all in agrement anymore.:pac:

Fair point - I exaggerated! But if the powers that be don't believe a wrestling promotion is quite at their level, they'll be hesitant about risking their long-term talent. If they think the promotion is of a comparable standard, well, they'll be afraid that their talent might be lured away!

SlickRic

what a f*cking laugh.

Batista complaining at the lack of storytellers.

tell me, oh thoroughbred, the last story you engaged the audience in.

f*ck off, seriously.

you f*cked up a story-line which should've written itself in the Rey feud, failing to get the heat you should be.

HHH told the best story you were ever involved in.

Lita Forever

It's really amazing and sad and funny all at the same time how Batista can be so blinded by his own arrogance at times. He actually acts as if he himself is one of the greats when it comes to storytelling in the ring. That poor, deluded bastard.

belge boy

batista called out aj styles before about his train wreck matches. lawlz

gimmick

flahavaj wrote: »

This.

Its no conincidence the finest in ring technicians of this generation, Benoit, Eddy, Guerrero plied their trade and hined their skills in Japan and to a lesser extent Mexico before hitting the bigtime in America.

EVERY young wrestler should spend time in Japan, if only to witness the discilpline and sheer torture the young Japanese wrestlers go through just to make the grade in the dojos.

I will be intetrested to see how DiBiase Jr continues to progress, given he has spent some time in both the indies and Japan. But what I have quoted and what Flav quoited is the truth of it.

WWE young uns are thought just a "WWE style", a watered down style which is not very conducive to great matches. If these fellas where to learn a few extra bits and pieces abroad, it can only be of benefit to both the wrestler himself and the WWE.

As an aside to the point at hand, good thread this.