Need help "proving" laptop is faulty! :-\

cherrio

Hey All,

need some help with a laptop that is almost 18 months old, purchased from Dabs.ie and now it's a €1400 paper weight. Neither HP nor Dabs will help resolve the issue as 12 months is up, HP won't even tell me how much it would cost if I were to pay to get it fixed myself.

I used the Dabs "chat" feature and asked that it was surely still covered about the Sale of Goods Act, this is the canned reply I got,

Certain contractual obligations (under the Sales of Goods Act 1979 (as amended)) are implied in all of our consumer contracts, and a party can (under the Limitations Act) bring a claim within a six (6) year period for 'breach of contract' from the date of the alleged breach.
As far as the Sales of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) is concerned, there is an implied term that the goods have to be of 'satisfactory quality'. A key part of determining whether the goods in question are of 'satisfactory quality' is the issue of 'durability' - which does not cover fair wear and tear; as many goods can simply develop a fault(s) through normal use.
Every product supplied has an finite life and, in short, no party can expect goods to remain fault free for six years, a fact well established in consumer law.
For you to bring a claim under the terms of the Sales of Goods Act, we need to be satisfied that the goods in question have develop a genuine fault(s), and not one through fair wear and tear and/or misuse. You will no doubt be aware that the burden is on yourself to prove that the goods are genuinely faulty after six months from purchase.

I appreciate that this may not immediately resolve the situation, but if you could please send any evidence to substantiate your claim, then I would be more than willing to assess our position. You can email this to assistance@dabs.com. I am very sorry for any inconvenience caused.

How do I prove that this is genuine fault? Does any one know of any studys on the average lifespan of a laptop? Any advice?

It seems that this is just a hurrdle they are putting up to discourage people from claiming against them, so any help would be gratefully appreciated.

Thanks.

drunkmonkey

What's the fault with the laptop, what's it not doing correctly?

dudara

Can you provide us with some detail of the faults you've experienced with the laptop?

cherrio

Didn't want to go into the technical side (wrong forum! ). The problem is that was just browsing Web and suddenly screen dimmed significantly, then started blinking and finally went completely blank. Turned off assuming restart and everything would be fine. But won't start. Not even the BIOS logos will show, so I am guessing the that onboard graphs card has failed.

There are no beep or flash codes, so has to be something pretty low level.

[edit]Oh ya, thanks for the replies [/edit]

Cabaal

Does it even power on? (as in can you hear the fans start up/lights etc)

cherrio

Cabaal wrote: »

Does it even power on? (as in can you hear the fans start up/lights etc)

Backlight on the screen comes on alright, but [edit]NO[/edit] logo or BIOS details what normally happens. Tried removing RAM (powered it on with no RAM and it gave a beep code), tried removing battery and HDD, all had no effect. Just a black screen.

Jev/N

What type of graphics does it have?

cherrio

Jev/N wrote: »

What type of graphics does it have?

It is a "NVIDIA GeForce 8400M GS".

Elessar

cherrio wrote: »

Hey All,

need some help with a laptop that is almost 18 months old, purchased from Dabs.ie and now it's a €1400 paper weight. Neither HP nor Dabs will help resolve the issue as 12 months is up, HP won't even tell me how much it would cost if I were to pay to get it fixed myself.

I used the Dabs "chat" feature and asked that it was surely still covered about the Sale of Goods Act, this is the canned reply I got,



How do I prove that this is genuine fault? Does any one know of any studys on the average lifespan of a laptop? Any advice?

It seems that this is just a hurrdle they are putting up to discourage people from claiming against them, so any help would be gratefully appreciated.

Thanks.

Ha! What a load of nonsense from dabs.ie! You are correct in thinking they are trying to just make it seem as difficult as possible for you.

First of all, the are talking about the UK sale of goods act, not the Irish one. If you bought from dabs.ie you are covered under the Irish act and the uk one does not apply.

Second, you have to prove nothing to them. The only person you have to prove anything to is a small claims court judge. They are not the small claims court. If the laptop is faulty, it's faulty. After paying €1400 for a laptop, It would be safe to say you are definitely covered 18 months on.

Email them and quote the Irish act, mention the small claims court, see what they have to say for themselves then.

Kila

All goods bought within the EU are covered under the Sale of Goods and Associated Guarantees Directive 99/44/EC for 2 years after purchase. Commercial guarantees or warranties are in addition to, not instead of, this guarantee. You can find full info on this on the European Consumer Centre website (http://www.eccireland.ie/) under the "Buying Goods and Services" tab.

Their website actually gives a laptop related example:

A common set of consumer rights for consumers are valid no matter where in the EU the goods are purchased, which are enforceable for at least 2 years from delivery of the goods. In Ireland, there is limitation period of 6 years within which a consumer can bring an action against a trader.

For example, if you order a laptop which turns out to have less memory than it is supposed to have, the problem may not be obvious to you immediately, but it is still an inherent fault in the product which the trader must remedy if you discover it within the limitation period.

When a consumer reports the lack of conformity to the seller, they may be entitled to expect:

* that the goods be repaired or replaced free of charge within a reasonable period and without major inconvenience to the consumer;
* for a reduction to be made to the price, or for the contract to be rescinded (i.e. the contract ends, as if it was never present), if repair or replacement is impossible or disproportionate, or if the seller has not remedied the problem within a reasonable period or without major inconvenience to the consumer. The consumer is not entitled to have the contract rescinded if the lack of conformity is minor e.g. scratch on the outer plastic cover of a CD case.

The actual legislation is here.

In short, it is a defect in the product and they should do something about it.

Elessar

Kila wrote: »

All goods bought within the EU are covered under the Sale of Goods and Associated Guarantees Directive 99/44/EC for 2 years after purchase. Commercial guarantees or warranties are in addition to, not instead of, this guarantee. You can find full info on this on the European Consumer Centre website (http://www.eccireland.ie/) under the "Buying Goods and Services" tab.

Their website actually gives a laptop related example:



The actual legislation is here.

In short, it is a defect in the product and they should do something about it.

Be careful here. The EU directive mentioned was not implented in ireland because our consumer law provides for greater protection. If you bought the laptop from Irish registered dabs.ie then the above does not apply. I have also read, but cannot confirm, the uk did not adopt it either.

jor el

You don't have to prove anything to them, you just have to get them to take it back. It's up to them to determine the fault.

What I would do, is email that address they gave you. Explain the problem, and what you've done so far to get the laptop to start again. Tell them it has not had any physical damage, and has not been mistreated (given that it's a laptop, a fair amount of wear and tear could be expected anyway).

If you get no response, or an unfavorable one, ask for a senior customer service rep to contact you (supervisor or team leader, someone that can actually do something) or you'll take the mater further (court). If that doesn't happen, or gets you nowhere, then do take it to the small claims court. Give them some time to respond at each request (5-7 days should be enough).

If they don't agree to take it back and assess it, then you have the choice to drop it, or take it to the courts.

Sponge Bob

Those chips are notorious and were when you bought the laptop


It is a "NVIDIA GeForce 8400M GS".

These ****ty chips are a 'known fault' on the Dell Inspiron XPS 1330 too . Dell roll over straight away when they fail, NVIDIA admitted the fault well over a year ago, see

http://www.engadget.com/2008/07/02/n...-are-defectiv/

and of course the Reg had something.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...fective-nvidia

"They knew HP laptops were bad, they knew Dells were bad, and we know the chips are all bad, but NV keeps stonewalling and spinning very different stories to analysts"

and from a link in that Reg article

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/...-g846-problems

Small claim court time for you !

Jev/N

cherrio wrote: »

It is a "NVIDIA GeForce 8400M GS".

As posted above, many many issues with Nvidia graphics. I have a macbook pro with the notorious 8600M GT which Apple have extended the warranty on to 3 YEARS at this stage due to the amount of returns.

If they don't accede to your claims go to the Small Claims Court, or at least threaten to do so and see the response...

Jev/N

sorry, double

Jev/N

sorry, boards went nuts on me for a bit there!

axer

jor el wrote: »

You don't have to prove anything to them, you just have to get them to take it back. It's up to them to determine the fault.

Where does it say that in law?

OP, my sister had a similiar problem with a HP laptop.

If HP look at the laptop they will actually go out of their way to find wear and tear. They sent her back a graphic of her laptop showing every scratch and wear mark, any signs of water damage etc. so if you take on Dabs (with HP as their experts) then be prepared for a fight since you will have to get your own "expert" to counteract HPs.

You will have a fight on your hands because "everyone knows it" is not proof that there is an inherent fault with the chip in your laptop. Print outs of forum posts or articles posted online or otherwise are not proof either since NVidia have not publically addmited the problem from what I know. I would love to see someone take them on though.

cherrio

Update: So emailed Dabs last Monday, was polite and told them I wanted to resolve amicably. Now a full week later, I get a reply back. The reply? The exact same canned response as I got in the chat. Seriously it took them a whole week to not read my email and reply with the exact same response! :rolleyes:

A bit annoyed with them. Should I give them another chance? If I send another email are they just going to ignore it as well? It is tuning into a real pain not having a laptop

Any one used the small claims court before? Can you offer any advice?

wingnut

Could you purchase an extended warranty (hp carepack). I know you shouldn't have to but it might cover you for another year or two and speed up the repair. I have done it with dell machines before (over a year old, often the extended warranty is cheaper than the part you need).

Sponge Bob

wingnut wrote: »

(over a year old, often the extended warranty is cheaper than the part you need).

Very good point

jor el

axer wrote: »

Where does it say that in law?

It says if the product is faulty then the retailer has to take it back. They can be given a chance to repair, which would involve investigating. It mentions nothing about the consumer proving the fault, which would be all but impossible in most circumstances. Hence, the retailer (or manufacturer) needs to prove it's not faulty, if the consumer is claiming that it is.

cherrio wrote:

Any one used the small claims court before? Can you offer any advice?

Just fill in the form online, include all the details, pay the fee and wait.

axer

jor el wrote: »

It says if the product is faulty then the retailer has to take it back.They can be given a chance to repair, which would involve investigating. It mentions nothing about the consumer proving the fault, which would be all but impossible in most circumstances. Hence, the retailer (or manufacturer) needs to prove it's not faulty, if the consumer is claiming that it is.

No it says that if the goods are not of merchantable quality then there is either a breach of warranty or condition. If the buyer is compelled to treat the breach as a breach of warranty then he can request that the seller "remedy the breach or replace any goods which are not in conformity".

It does not say who proves what or who has to check what. The only thing it says is that the onus is on the buyer to prove that he/she acted promptly upon noticing the breach.

jor el

axer wrote: »

No it says that if the goods are not of merchantable quality then there is either a breach of warranty or condition. If the buyer is compelled to treat the breach as a breach of warranty then he can request that the seller "remedy the breach or replace any goods which are not in conformity".

He has requested, and they have denied his request and asked him to prove the fault. The legislation says the supplier must offer a repair, replacement or refund, they have offered none of these. Repair is in there is to give the supplier the opportunity to test the product before being forced to replace or refund based solely on the buyers word.

axer

jor el wrote: »

He has requested, and they have denied his request and asked him to prove the fault. The legislation says the supplier must offer a repair, replacement or refund, they have offered none of these. Repair is in there is to give the supplier the opportunity to test the product before being forced to replace or refund based solely on the buyers word.

They are in their rights (unfortunately) to say there is no fault there without even looking at the item at which point the OP has to take them to the small claims court and prove that there is a fault there that has not been caused by wear and tear.

While the sale of goods ... act 1980 adds implied warranties and conditions to sales contracts between consumers and businesses, there is a normal sales contract there at the end of the day. Unfortunately it is like every other contract, one party breaches the contract and the other party has to prove there is a breach as the breaching party can say that they didn't breach.

monkeypants

Buying a warranty now will probably not help as existing problems are not covered by a new warranty.

Keep every email and make a note of all conversations regarding this. All of your attempts to remedy this will be needed in court.

foggy_lad

axer wrote: »

They are in their rights (unfortunately) to say there is no fault there without even looking at the item at which point the OP has to take them to the small claims court and prove that there is a fault there that has not been caused by wear and tear.

While the sale of goods ... act 1980 adds implied warranties and conditions to sales contracts between consumers and businesses, there is a normal sales contract there at the end of the day. Unfortunately it is like every other contract, one party breaches the contract and the other party has to prove there is a breach as the breaching party can say that they didn't breach.

the op would not have to prove any fault in the small claims court as it is taken to be the case because the item is not working as expected, and the op is claiming not to have abused or damaged the item in any way outside of normal wear and tear. but dabs can ask to have the laptop examined to prove there is no fault or that any fault was caused by negligence or "wear and tear".

Paddyo

What model of HP is it?

cherrio

It is a HP Pavilion dv2899ea, much like the dv2700, just with a fancier looking casing. Never had any issue with it before, but this saga would put me right off ever buying HP again.

nmesisca

the fact that there was a class action against Nvidia for their ethically questionable business tactics in dealing with this specific issue should give you enough proof.
HP has since admitted the issue was alive and kicking as well if im not wrong.

I now live by the rule.. 'if its nvidia, no thanks'.

Nonoperational

Tell them about the nvidia fault they should give in.

jahalpin

Elessar wrote: »

Ha! What a load of nonsense from dabs.ie! You are correct in thinking they are trying to just make it seem as difficult as possible for you.

First of all, the are talking about the UK sale of goods act, not the Irish one. If you bought from dabs.ie you are covered under the Irish act and the uk one does not apply.

Second, you have to prove nothing to them. The only person you have to prove anything to is a small claims court judge. They are not the small claims court. If the laptop is faulty, it's faulty. After paying €1400 for a laptop, It would be safe to say you are definitely covered 18 months on.

Email them and quote the Irish act, mention the small claims court, see what they have to say for themselves then.

This is wrong. You bought the laptop from a UK based company (the .ie site is only a different euro "shopfront") and so would be covered by the UK act and would therefore be unable to sue in the Irish small claims court.

wingnut

monkeypants wrote: »

Buying a warranty now will probably not help as existing problems are not covered by a new warranty..

Dell have no problem fixing problems after you take out an extended warranty.

monkeypants

wingnut wrote: »

Dell have no problem fixing problems after you take out an extended warranty.

Most of the time, yes. Not always. The warranty documentation does state that there should be a hardware healthcheck performed before the warranty is offered. However, once you have it, that should be that. It would be a pain in the ass for the Tech and their manager to try and refund it, that's assuming that they'd even care to begin with. By all means give it a go. If any questions are asked, plead ignorance. Just say "I called up the Dublin office and they said it was a mistake and that it should be fine now."