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Acupuncture

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  • 04-01-2010 1:09pm
    #1
    Ciaran187
    Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭


    Hi all

    Interested in getting acupuncture as some friends say it works wonders. I'm in the Blanchardstown area. Anyone know good acupuncture places around?

    Also - how exactly does it work? Can you ask them to perform a full body general maintenance or does each treatment focus on one specific area?

    Thanks in advance.


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    #2
    DrIndy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,461 ✭✭✭DrIndy


    Mod Note:

    Please feel free to discuss acupuncture on this thread further - preferably with scientific evidence if possible.

    But as per our policy - we cannot recommend practitioners either medical or alternative on this forum.


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    #3
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    From a scientific point of view the traditional explanation is bull**** to be blunt. :)

    Seems to be mostly a placebo effect: Studies where sham-acupuncture is used (i.e. where it only *looks* like they've stuck a needle in you) seem to suggest that it doesn't actually matter if needles are stuck in you or not to get the benefit (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15870415?dopt=AbstractPlus). (Ranting about such here: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/04/sham_acupuncture_is_better_than_true_acu.php)


    You can get pain relief etc from acupuncture but it's got nothing to do with chi or anything and is purely a placebo effect from going to the trouble of paying some guy to stick needles in you for a while. Whether you consider that worth paying for or not is up to you, personally I've found acupuncture relaxing whenever I've had it done but it's got no scientific basis at all. :)


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    #4
    Ciaran187
    Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭Ciaran187


    Thanks for that. Never been before so thought I'd give it a whirl. Not looking to regrow a limb from it or anything! Just figured it'd be relaxing.

    One point that could potentially result in a new thread - the placebo effect that you mentioned. If you suffered from a mental illness, it's all in your head. When it comes down to it, it's in your head. When you feel pain or tiredness etc, it's your brain processing those messages so that's all in your head too. The effect of a placebo is obviously all in your head so therefore, physical pain could technically be relieved by believing it is, and that could be the basis of acupuncture?

    I don't know - as I said I've never had acupuncture - but I'll let you know (once I find somewhere)!


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    #5
    kipple
    Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭kipple


    nesf wrote: »
    From a scientific point of view the traditional explanation is bull**** to be blunt. :)

    I totally agree.

    There are a number of studies that show acupuncture is more effective that traditional medicine for low back pain. One of the biggest study is the "German Acupuncture Trials" which brought to public attention a trail comparing real acupuncture and sham acupuncture.
    http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/17/1892

    Two Points:
    1. A possible explanation is that acupuncture (sham or real) is stimulating fascial mechanoreceptors leading to a change in sympathetic tonus as well as a change in local tissue viscosity. A full paper looking at the science from 2003 which is NOT acupuncture related is here http://www.somatics.de/FascialPlasticity/main.htm

    2. If acupuncture is mostly a placebo effect then this is really interesting! How can we bottle this placebo effect and add this to existing therapies. Also why is the placebo effect of acupuncture possibly greater that the placebo effect of tradition therapies as suggested by different acupuncture trials.

    There is a good chance that if those researching acupuncture would drop the chi then there is a good chance that they would find out interesting stuff either about how the body works or about the nature of the placebo effect or both.


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    #6
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Ciaran187 wrote: »
    Thanks for that. Never been before so thought I'd give it a whirl. Not looking to regrow a limb from it or anything! Just figured it'd be relaxing.

    One point that could potentially result in a new thread - the placebo effect that you mentioned. If you suffered from a mental illness, it's all in your head. When it comes down to it, it's in your head. When you feel pain or tiredness etc, it's your brain processing those messages so that's all in your head too. The effect of a placebo is obviously all in your head so therefore, physical pain could technically be relieved by believing it is, and that could be the basis of acupuncture?

    I don't know - as I said I've never had acupuncture - but I'll let you know (once I find somewhere)!

    A placebo effect is very real. You will feel genuinely better from one and even with effective medicines part of their effect in some conditions is the placebo effect. You can give a sugar pill to someone, while telling them that it's a very strong painkiller, and most/all of them will get some pain relief from it.

    Mental illness isn't "all in your head" btw. Arguably there's no separation between your brain and your mind etc. :p


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    #7
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    kipple wrote: »
    I totally agree.

    There are a number of studies that show acupuncture is more effective that traditional medicine for low back pain. One of the biggest study is the "German Acupuncture Trials" which brought to public attention a trail comparing real acupuncture and sham acupuncture.
    http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/17/1892

    Two Points:
    1. A possible explanation is that acupuncture (sham or real) is stimulating fascial mechanoreceptors leading to a change in sympathetic tonus as well as a change in local tissue viscosity. A full paper looking at the science from 2003 which is NOT acupuncture related is here http://www.somatics.de/FascialPlasticity/main.htm

    2. If acupuncture is mostly a placebo effect then this is really interesting! How can we bottle this placebo effect and add this to existing therapies. Also why is the placebo effect of acupuncture possibly greater that the placebo effect of tradition therapies as suggested by different acupuncture trials.

    There is a good chance that if those researching acupuncture would drop the chi then there is a good chance that they would find out interesting stuff either about how the body works or about the nature of the placebo effect or both.

    What makes you think the acupuncture placebo would be unique? Could it not be the same placebo that comes from homeopathy or reiki etc?


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    #8
    Ciaran187
    Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭Ciaran187


    nesf wrote: »
    Mental illness isn't "all in your head" btw. Arguably there's no separation between your brain and your mind etc. :p

    I was typing as I was thinking. I meant everything you experience - pain, moods, etc - are all just chemical signals in your brain. Smiling releases chemicals which lift your mood. So if someone is depressed, they are often told to smile as often as possible, which raises their mood.
    nesf wrote: »
    What makes you think the acupuncture placebo would be unique? Could it not be the same placebo that comes from homeopathy or reiki etc?

    I'm not pushing one over the other. I just like the idea of acupuncture. The placebo effect would most likely be the same across anything - acupuncture, reiki, sugar pills, whatever.

    BTW - if anyone here is from the Blanchardstown area and has had acupuncture, please PM me to tell me where it was and how you got on.

    Thanks


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    #9
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Ciaran187 wrote: »
    I was typing as I was thinking. I meant everything you experience - pain, moods, etc - are all just chemical signals in your brain. Smiling releases chemicals which lift your mood. So if someone is depressed, they are often told to smile as often as possible, which raises their mood.

    Eh, honestly as someone with bipolar smiling isn't going to lift clinical depression!

    Ciaran187 wrote: »
    I'm not pushing one over the other. I just like the idea of acupuncture. The placebo effect would most likely be the same across anything - acupuncture, reiki, sugar pills, whatever.

    BTW - if anyone here is from the Blanchardstown area and has had acupuncture, please PM me to tell me where it was and how you got on.

    Thanks

    If you like the idea of acupuncture go for it. Just don't let yourself part with too much money for it!


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    #10
    kipple
    Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭kipple


    nesf wrote: »
    What makes you think the acupuncture placebo would be unique? Could it not be the same placebo that comes from homeopathy or reiki etc?

    I never said the acupuncture placebo is unique. The interesting question here is comparing the placebo effect of alternative therapists and say a normal GP visit. I am going to quote Ben Goldacre who writes the bad science column in the Guardian.

    Pseudoscientists, and alternative therapists, being expensive and long-winded, have more time to weave ceremony and cultural meaning, and maximise their placebo effect, than a rushed NHS GP.

    http://www.badscience.net/2004/04/whats-wrong-with-the-placebo-effect/


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