hole in air nozzle

lux-et-veritas

hello and happy new year everyone, hope youall can help.
i have recently had a butchers inside my m4, my l96 and my g36c and i have noticed that the two i got from irish retailers have holes drilled in the air nozzels (leaving a load of brass swarf in the hop in the case of the l96) i wondered if this was a common practice over here as the one from hongkong has no hole, as indeed none of the ones i owened/fixed in the uk had them either... i wondered if anyone else has the same...

Leftyflip

Unfortunately that is the cheapest way to downgrade:( which usually results in needing a new spring and air nozzle... although the case with the L96 sounds far worse...

deco nate

most airsoft guns imported to ireland are over the limit,as far as i know a lot if not most shops down grade that way unless you ask to do it by the spring,i know sod all some one will correct me
lefty done it again

Puding

as far as i know a lot if not most shops down grade

sad fact is your more than likely right but does not mean its right, will result in inconsistent fps at best your gearbox is still having to pull that big old 400fps spring, if your buying from an irish retailer it might be best to check before purchase what downgrade technique has been used we have an a lot of people turning up at the shop with drilled nozzles, it then post them another 30 - 40 euros for labor and parts to put it right

deco nate

Puding wrote: »

sad fact is your more than likely right but does not mean its right, will result in inconsistent fps at best your gearbox is still having to pull that big old 400fps spring, if your buying from an irish retailer it might be best to check before purchase what downgrade technique has been used we have an a lot of people turning up at the shop with drilled nozzles, it then post them another 30 - 40 euros for labor and parts to put it right

cheers puding,just askin do you downgrade by spring,or what do think the best way is,cheers bud

Puding

cheers puding,just askin do you downgrade by spring,or what do think the best way is,cheers bud

ask and check is my personal view, if your spending a lot of money on an aeg the last thing you want to do is have then have to spend more money putting it right out of the box, been there all to often recently explaining to a player on thr site how someone took a drill to there 400euro aeg

Leftyflip

The best way to downgrade is by changing the spring no doubt. No rough, jagged edges are left on the cylinder if its been drilled and you don't lose consistency like you do when the air nozzle is drilled. It also takes all unnecessary strain off the gearbox, resulting in a more reliable set up.

Puding

Leftyflip wrote: »

The best way to downgrade is by changing the spring no doubt. No rough, jagged edges are left on the cylinder if its been drilled and you don't lose consistency like you do when the air nozzle is drilled. It also takes all unnecessary strain off the gearbox, resulting in a more reliable set up.

its the best way because its not easily changed someone has to make a decision to upgrade it over a joule for example, where as with some of the drilled cylinders it can easly jump back up over the joule for a number of reasons, not fun when you walk up to the chrono station and you have no idea what is going on

Leftyflip

Puding wrote: »

where as with some of the drilled cylinders it can easly jump back up over the joule for a number of reasons, not fun when you walk up to the chrono station and you have no idea what is going on

True and I've seen it happen myself, saw one AEG go from 310 to 340, which was quite strange.

Puding

Leftyflip wrote: »

True and I've seen it happen myself, saw one AEG go from 310 to 340, which was quite strange.

seen it happen a far few times with drilled nozzels and cylinders i'm afraid

deco nate

thanks lads,next time i buy from a shop,im gonna say/ask to do it by spring

lux-et-veritas

thanks for your input guys, i guess its time to embark on a bit of an air nozzel/spring changeing session, although i do feel slightly hard done by, and i hate stripping gearboxes (of all kinds)..

johnboysligo

my old sportsline m4 seemed to have a hole drilled into the airnozzle it eventually broke and i replaced it she was shooting at 1.4j scared the bejesus out of me when i fired it first.

I sapose its just a buyer beware type thing.

roadwarrior666

anyone who drills a nozzle is an idiot and should not be selling or working on airsoft guns.its the same as dry firing your gun all the time and will result in piston/piston head damage and cracking of the gearbox casing in aeg's and piston/cylinder damage in spring guns.
the morel is do it right or get someone who knows what their doing to do it for you.and if you see a drilled nozzle walk out the shop

Shiva

roadwarrior666 wrote: »

anyone who drills a nozzle is an idiot and should not be selling or working on airsoft guns.its the same as dry firing your gun all the time and will result in piston/piston head damage and cracking of the gearbox casing in aeg's and piston/cylinder damage in spring guns.
the morel is do it right or get someone who knows what their doing to do it for you.and if you see a drilled nozzle walk out the shop

Thats the biggest load of old bollocks I've read on this forum, and thats saying something.

Leftyflip

roadwarrior666 wrote: »

anyone who drills a nozzle is an idiot and should not be selling or working on airsoft guns.its the same as dry firing your gun all the time and will result in piston/piston head damage and cracking of the gearbox casing in aeg's and piston/cylinder damage in spring guns.
the morel is do it right or get someone who knows what their doing to do it for you.and if you see a drilled nozzle walk out the shop

Funny, I dry fired my MP5K for five minutes just for sh*ts and giggles, then opened up the mechbox as I was upgrading it and there was nothing wrong with it at all. Unfortunately drilling nozzles is the only cost effective way for Irish retailers to import AEGs, if they have the spring changed at source it can cost up to $40 per gun and with large quantities that's just unfeaseable. If you don't want a drilled nozzle, send the retailer an extra €30-€40 so that the spring and air nozzle can be replaced.

Puding

So either face the fact that you'll get an AEG with a drilled nozzle or f*ck off.

sorry leafyflip but wow, sorry but that not the only way, its a retailers choice how they downgrade, but it is not the only way and there are retailers in this country not drilling and all over the world, im sorry but im getting pissed of with this culture thats developed where people are almost bullied into accepting that this is acceptable, there is a massive cost factor but when i see drilled cylinders week in week out and then when they go back to some retailors there made to them pay for repairs, if your going to do the job do it right and then charge the customer for that job, otherwise let them know how it is downgraded

the statement about dry firing are off but does not mean the rest is meaningless

Horse84

Leftyflip wrote: »

Funny, I dry fired my MP5K for five minutes just for sh*ts and giggles, then opened up the mechbox as I was upgrading it and there was nothing wrong with it at all. Unfortunately drilling nozzles is the only cost effective way for Irish retailers to import AEGs, if they have the spring changed at source it can cost up to $40 per gun and with large quantities that's just unfeaseable. If you don't want a drilled nozzle, send the retailer an extra €30-€40 so that the spring and air nozzle can be replaced. So either face the fact that you'll get an AEG with a drilled nozzle or f*ck off.

WTF are u on about??

Leftyflip

Horse84 wrote: »

WTF are u on about??

The cost of a new spring, air nozzle replacement...

Edit: Sorry for being bit of a c*nt, bad day...

roadwarrior666

Shiva wrote: »

Thats the biggest load of old bollocks I've read on this forum, and thats saying something.

if you drill a nozzle you get inconsistent fps cracking of gearbox housings on aegs proven fact,i may be more used to working on custom american aegs up to 700fps and springers over 1000fps but since i moved here i found most retailers have not got a clue by your comment you've proven that fact

Leftyflip

roadwarrior666 wrote: »

if you drill a nozzle you get inconsistent fps cracking of gearbox housings on aegs proven fact,i may be more used to working on custom american aegs up to 700fps and springers over 1000fps but since i moved here i found most retailers have not got a clue by your comment you've proven that fact

Yes, you'll get inconsistent fps, no one said you wouldn't. The gearbox won't crack though. Most Irish retailers do have a clue, it would seem you wouldn't...

Puding

The gearbox won't crack though

why? your still pulling a heavy spring, if gearbox crack in the us over 400fps in cold weather then its clear that the same will happen in Ireland of the gearbox is still pull that same spring but shooting under 1joule due to a drilled cylinder or nozzle, the forces the shell is experiencing is still the same, i can show you the shells that confirm this

Shiva

roadwarrior666 wrote: »

if you drill a nozzle you get inconsistent fps cracking of gearbox housings on aegs proven fact,i may be more used to working on custom american aegs up to 700fps and springers over 1000fps but since i moved here i found most retailers have not got a clue by your comment you've proven that fact

You can get inconsistent FPS, no doubt about it, bit the rest of your statement is pure crap.

I'm sick to the back teeth of people jumping on this bandwagon and talking though their backside about it.

Its FAR from the best way to downgrade a gun, no-one is arguing that, but its the most cost effective way to LEGALLY import guns for sale in this country.

Furthermore, its nowhere near as big a problem as the bandwagon jumpers on here are making out. I have, by neccessity, had to import drilled guns by the thousands, and very, very few have had problems. We replace the nozzle and spring nowadays, but they still come in with drilled nozzles, and their performance is fine for the most part. We just replace the spring because I'm sick and tired of armchair technicians like you spreading FUD with a hidden agenda, and people lap it up because hey, its Irish Airsoft, and we gotta have our scandals.

Trolls like you are the reason airsoft in this country is full of bitching and politics.

roadwarrior666

Leftyflip wrote: »

Yes, you'll get inconsistent fps, no one said you wouldn't. The gearbox won't crack though. Most Irish retailers do have a clue, it would seem you wouldn't...

as i was just backed up on heavy spring + drilled nozzle = cracked housing usually at front corner above air nozzle

Leftyflip

Can't I have one off day? Ok fine, I f*cked my facts, definitely not the first or last time.
What I shoulda said was "It may crack under the pressure, but I haven't seen it happen and I ran a Dboys M4 with a drilled nozzle for about 5 months, at least 30000 rounds through it and the only thing I ever changed was the hop, the gearbox shell is still perfect.

roadwarrior666

Shiva wrote: »

You can get inconsistent FPS, no doubt about it, bit the rest of your statement is pure crap.

I'm sick to the back teeth of people jumping on this bandwagon and talking though their backside about it.

Its FAR from the best way to downgrade a gun, no-one is arguing that, but its the most cost effective way to LEGALLY import guns for sale in this country.

Furthermore, its nowhere near as big a problem as the bandwagon jumpers on here are making out. I have, by neccessity, had to import drilled guns by the thousands, and very, very few have had problems. We replace the nozzle and spring nowadays, but they still come in with drilled nozzles, and their performance is fine for the most part. We just replace the spring because I'm sick and tired of armchair technicians like you spreading FUD with a hidden agenda, and people lap it up because hey, its Irish Airsoft, and we gotta have our scandals.

Trolls like you are the reason airsoft in this country is full of bitching and politics.

iv been working on aeg's longer than you've been selling them
im just sharing my expertise just making a point that its better to change a spring at the cost of ten euro than drill a nozzle and and cost your customer 30 to 50 euro to put it right.and iv repaired quite a few gearboxes here with cracks in the housings usually with drilled nozzles and 400 fps springs

Witcher

roadwarrior666 wrote: »

iv been working on aeg's longer than you've been selling them
im just sharing my expertise just making a point that its better to change a spring at the cost of ten euro than drill a nozzle and and cost your customer 30 to 50 euro to put it right.and iv repaired quite a few gearboxes here with cracks in the housings usually with drilled nozzles and 400 fps springs

That's fine in theory, but say a retailer does that and puts his prices up €10 then we'd have "omgz taht retailarz iz the r1p 0ff" here. People want everything done perfectly without paying for it.

Leftyflip

Then share your expertise, but don't get up on a high horse saying that we're all stupid... Not the best way to start off.
The fact of the matter is, unlike the States, which has no fps limit as far as I know, any airsoft device being imported to Ireland absolutely must be under one joule before it hits our shores. Most suppliers don't actually change springs, or if they do they charge stupid amounts. That €30- €50 covers the new parts, and the gun techs time.

Shiva

roadwarrior666 wrote: »

iv been working on aeg's longer than you've been selling them
im just sharing my expertise just making a point that its better to change a spring at the cost of ten euro than drill a nozzle and and cost your customer 30 to 50 euro to put it right.and iv repaired quite a few gearboxes here with cracks in the housings usually with drilled nozzles and 400 fps springs

Good for you. I agree its better to change the spring, 100%

But you're not just sharing your experience, you're coming in here waving your arms and ranting and raving and maintaining retailers are deliberately trying to **** over the customers, so pardon the **** outta me for taking exception.

We'd all love to import them hot and downgrade with a spring, but we cant. End of story. We do the best we can with a very low legal FPS limit, and your grandstanding doesn't help anyone. In fact, it makes things worse because the lemmings who haven't a clue what they're on about see something written on Boards and take it as gospel.

If you or anyone else in this country can come up with a LEGAL way to import hot guns and downgrade them with springs, I'm all ears.

Puding

it still amazes me how some threads can be so full of useful information and so full of crap in equal measures at the same time :rolleyes:

roadwarrior666

Shiva wrote: »

Good for you. I agree its better to change the spring, 100%

But you're not just sharing your experience, you're coming in here waving your arms and ranting and raving and maintaining retailers are deliberately trying to **** over the customers, so pardon the **** outta me for taking exception.

We'd all love to import them hot and downgrade with a spring, but we cant. End of story. We do the best we can with a very low legal FPS limit, and your grandstanding doesn't help anyone. In fact, it makes things worse because the lemmings who haven't a clue what they're on about see something written on Boards and take it as gospel.

If you or anyone else in this country can come up with a LEGAL way to import hot guns and downgrade them with springs, I'm all ears.

i didnt mean to come storming in but it makes my blood boil when is see things done the wrong way

lux-et-veritas

come on guys, steady on here all i started this tread for was to ask a simple question which was long since answered, i had no intention of starting another pointless slanging match, at the end of the day we should all be playing togrther WITH HONOUR just as the most of us do in game. and with that in mind i would like to ask the mods to close this tread.
thanks

Stonewolf

Shiva wrote: »

If you or anyone else in this country can come up with a LEGAL way to import hot guns and downgrade them with springs, I'm all ears.

I'm sure someone somewhere has already suggested this so forgive my ignorance but a licence to import and decommission firearms?

Shiva

Stonewolf wrote: »

I'm sure someone somewhere has already suggested this so forgive my ignorance but a licence to import and decommission firearms?

No, unfortunately. Firearms permits currently require that the firearm be traceable, and there's no way to do that with an Airsoft gun, because of the lack of serial numbers.

There was talk last year about the new retailers licence allowing retailers import guns over one joule, and then downgrade before selling. I strongly lobbied for this with the IAA, and they pushed it with the DoJ. It didn't make it into the law itself, but there's a small chance It could be allowed under the retailer guidelines that are put in place when the licencing sections are made operational. It'd be a godsend if that happens, and stop these threads from popping up every few weeks.

Shiva

roadwarrior666 wrote: »

i didnt mean to come storming in but it makes my blood boil when is see things done the wrong way

Well we're in agreement there alright. Unfortunately though, our options are limited. I'd give my right arm to be able to import anything I want unmodified, and downgrade it ourselves. Here's hoping it'll happen when we're issued licences.

JonnyTwoCombs

Shiva wrote: »

No, unfortunately. Firearms permits currently require that the firearm be traceable, and there's no way to do that with an Airsoft gun, because of the lack of serial numbers.

There was talk last year about the new retailers licence allowing retailers import guns over one joule, and then downgrade before selling. I strongly lobbied for this with the IAA, and they pushed it with the DoJ. It didn't make it into the law itself, but there's a small chance It could be allowed under the retailer guidelines that are put in place when the licencing sections are made operational. It'd be a godsend if that happens, and stop these threads from popping up every few weeks.

Fantastic idea Tony, but alas, like all good idea’s it very rarely taken up.

roadwarrior666

Shiva wrote: »

Well we're in agreement there alright. Unfortunately though, our options are limited. I'd give my right arm to be able to import anything I want unmodified, and downgrade it ourselves. Here's hoping it'll happen when we're issued licences.

hopefully then it might be worth my while getting back into the fully custom built gun scene

Leftyflip

Why can't you do it now?

Gatling

dont see what the big issue is over drilled air nozzles ,if it means aegs are legal when they come to retailers there shouldnt be a problem as long as its not a botch job ,my experiance bought an aeg didnt get to use its for around 8 weeks brought it down to galway for a game got the aeg chrononed expected the aeg to be over the limit only to see the chrono reading of 98fps :eek::eek: yes i said 98 fps 3 chronos 98,95,97 fps :mad::mad:
didnt bring my tool kit so i used my back up for the day ,
stripped the said aeg at home and found a drilled and cracked nozzle ,hole and split in the piston head and damage to the piston its self ,
got on line ordered a piston ,nozzle and piston head and new spring 2 weeks laters 10mins of work had a aeg shooting at 310fps ,
if you dont know what your doing return it to the store where you bought the aeg for a quick fix ,
or do it youself

Masada

Meh, this has become another fail thread., but I'll post none the less,

theres a myth out there that a nozzle that has been drilled will give inconsistent readings. this is false. these inconsistency's are caused by the "way" in which it was done, and not the fact that it "was" done.

I've done a little research on this topic since the last discussion on it,
One of the causes of this variation in FPS is based in the positioning of the hole in the nozzle, sometimes it is drilled in a location that allows the hole to be partially covered by a bb coming up through the hopup when the nozzle is forward. other times it can be the angle at which the nozzle was drilled in relation to the hopup mech and the upcoming BBs. In some instances of "forced leaks" I have seen it looked like someone had bored the hole with a scissors, If it needs to be done, then it needs to be done cleanly and properly. ie, drilled with no excess flash, as small as possible in the right place while preventing the air nozzle from being able to rotate,.,

Some other cases have the cylinder itself drilled to force an air leak, this is a bigger problem in my opinion. the times i have seen this, it has been quite messy in the way it was done and thats before even mentioning the fact that all those metal filings from the bit are going straight into the cylinder for the piston to gather up. then theres the burrs left on the inside of the cylinder that the piston head and o-ring are going to come across. that'll defo take its toll on the guns reliability.

Broken Gearbox Shells:
This is a tough one really, Yes, it is possible to break the front of the gearbox shell off altogether. How much, or even if at all, this is influenced/caused by the power of the spring is arguable as there isn't really any proof either way. what i will say though is, there's a lot of low powered guns out there that do exactly that to the gearbox shell and at this very moment theres a Star, KWA, G&G and a TM shell on my desk, all originally fitted with 270-300 springs and broken off the front of the cylinder. Its something that can happen no matter what spring you are using as even with a low powered spring, there is a lot of force going into that area of the shell from the cycling action of the piston slamming into the front of the poorly protected shell. This is a flaw in the design of the gearbox shell itself as opposed to a result of larger springs and you will often hear of people removing metal piston heads and using silent types as they have a buffer that takes some of the whack out of the return on the spring, prolonging the life of the gearbox.

To people who have had issues with their gun and found out there to be a drilled nozzle, the only advise I can give really, is get the gun back to the retailer and explain the situation to them. Regardless of how it was downgraded, be it drilled cylinder, nozzle, spring etc, If the gun isn't operating as well as it should then that is cause to have it repaired completely cost free while its still under warranty, The performance of the gun should be satisfactory when you recieve it, no matter what way it was downgraded.

Phractal

Masada: Excellent post, and thanks for supplying examples of AEG's with broken gearbox shells - IMO that really proves the point that it CAN happen, not that it WILL.