Thought Experiment Regarding the Past..[Christians Only]

Turtwig

Howdy folks,

This is merely a thought experiment for Christians. I'm just curious as to how ye guys would answer this. If you don't want to answer it then that's fine, but I'd really appreciate it if you did.

Suppose, you were alive in the times of the OT and suppose you were asked by God to carry out one of His more controversial acts* e.g Killing the Canaanites. In the spur of the moment though, do you really think you would have been able to do so? If so, what do you think would have utterly compelled you into doing so, fear of God or trust in Him? Or, perhaps, something else?

*(I know that you deem that all these acts were justified.)

N.B To whom it may concern,
This thread isn't about attacking the Christian faith. It's about trying to understand the mindset of the people who carried out God's work, the thoughts that went through their minds and whether you think you would be capable of doing so if you were in their identical position. The assumption has been made that everything about Christianity is 100% true and is NOT up for question.

Berthram

And God tempted Abraham and said unto him, Take Isaac, thine only son, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah, and offer him there for a burnt offering upon the mountain which I will show thee."

If you are really interested in this topic (faith) you should read 'Fear and Trembling' by Kierkegaard.
http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/tkannist/e-texts/Kierkegaard/fear.htm

'Faith is the highest passion in a man. There are perhaps many in every generation who do not even reach it, but no one gets further.'

chozometroid

Malty_T wrote: »

Howdy folks,

This is merely a thought experiment for Christians. I'm just curious as to how ye guys would answer this. If you don't want to answer it then that's fine, but I'd really appreciate it if you did.

Suppose, you were alive in the times of the OT and suppose you were asked by God to carry out one of His more controversial acts* e.g Killing the Canaanites. In the spur of the moment though, do you really think you would have been able to do so? If so, what do you think would have utterly compelled you into doing so, fear of God or trust in Him? Or, perhaps, something else?

*(I know that you deem that all these acts were justified.)

Once I had a close enough relationship with God to hear His voice and know His voice, I would have no other choice but to carry out His commands. Being alive during those times would have created a completely different worldview with the focus on establishing God's nation to be His representatives on Earth. There was a purpose behind the killing of the heathen nations, however controversial it may be. It had to happen. This question of course leads to the question of knowing God's voice, which may be OT.

koHd

chozometroid wrote: »

Once I had a close enough relationship with God to hear His voice and know His voice, I would have no other choice but to carry out His commands. Being alive during those times would have created a completely different worldview with the focus on establishing God's nation to be His representatives on Earth. There was a purpose behind the killing of the heathen nations, however controversial it may be. It had to happen. This question of course leads to the question of knowing God's voice, which may be OT.

You would kill because of a voice in your head? You need to be locked up. No joke. Thats fricken ridiculous.

Fanny Cradock

Responses like those from koHd are exactly the reason why this thread is on borrowed time. Behave!

koHd

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Responses like those from koHd are exactly the reason why this thread is on borrowed time. Behave!

If the kind of post that was posted above was posted by a muslim in a similarly themed muslim thread it would be deleted and the poster would h ave his/her IP tracked by the police. Ban me if you want. But killing a person cannot be excused by any religion or god. And it's that exact sentiment that drives me away from organised religion.

Fanny Cradock

koHd wrote: »

If the kind of post that was posted above was posted by a muslim in a similarly themed muslim thread it would be deleted and the poster would h ave his/her IP tracked by the police.

Listen, you either stick by the charter or you get banned. That you happen to have a chip on your shoulder about religion isn't going to be tolerated here.

PDN

Malty_T wrote: »

Suppose, you were alive in the times of the OT and suppose you were asked by God to carry out one of His more controversial acts* e.g Killing the Canaanites. In the spur of the moment though, do you really think you would have been able to do so? If so, what do you think would have utterly compelled you into doing so, fear of God or trust in Him? Or, perhaps, something else?[/SIZE]

If I were transported back in time then, no, I don't think I could kill anyone. What makes me 'me' includes having spent a lifetime in a culture that has been influenced by two thousand years of Christian thought and development. I don't think I would last five minutes if the person I currently am was transported back into the days of Moses or Joshua.

Then again, the willingness with which the supposedly civilised German middle classes acquiesced in the holocaust suggests that my estimation of my own inoffensiveness might be wishful thinking.

chozometroid

koHd wrote: »

You would kill because of a voice in your head? You need to be locked up. No joke. Thats fricken ridiculous.

This is not about "a voice in your head." The thread OP assumes that it is God commanding you to do something. There is no qualifier of "if God is real and you think He commanded you" in there. The OP assumes God is real and He did actually command you.

Counter-terrorist units are ordered to kill terrorists all the time. They are listening to a "voice" and trust that voice to the end that they kill another human. This is of course for the purpose of saving future lives, because said terrorist was a threat to the nation.
Since none of us know how life was back then, we can only speculate as to how we would act in such a scenario. If God established a nation and there was another nation who were enemies of God, then war would be inevitable.

Manach

I cannot remember exactly the quote, and it is in the NT - but it would be analogous to the Roman Centurion stating he was a man under authority. In that men in a society who sign up for service are under a duty to obey orders coming from an authorised hierarchy. Saying that, there is the negative example of Joan of Arc, and freeing France under orders from God. If she had disobeyed, we might have been in the World cup .

PDN

Manach wrote: »

I cannot remember exactly the quote, and it is in the NT - but it would be analogous to the Roman Centurion stating he was a man under authority. In that men in a society who sign up for service are under a duty to obey orders coming from an authorised hierarchy.

That argument didn't cut much ice at Nuremberg.

doctoremma

chozometroid wrote: »

Once I had a close enough relationship with God to hear His voice and know His voice, I would have no other choice but to carry out His commands.

How would you decide whether or not he was testing you?

stevejazzx

PDN wrote: »

If I were transported back in time then, no, I don't think I could kill anyone. What makes me 'me' includes having spent a lifetime in a culture that has been influenced by two thousand years of Christian thought and development. I don't think I would last five minutes if the person I currently am was transported back into the days of Moses or Joshua.

Then again, the willingness with which the supposedly civilised German middle classes acquiesced in the holocaust suggests that my estimation of my own inoffensiveness might be wishful thinking.

In fairness you've dodged the question somewhat in imagining that Malty T meant that a 21st century individual be put in time machine and taken back to biblical times and then be tested by God. It's far more hypothetical than that I believe - he was simply wondering that if you were alive in those days and if God were to ask you to kill in his name would you you carry it out?

PDN

stevejazzx wrote: »

In fairness you've dodged the question somewhat in imagining that Malty T meant that a 21st century individual be put in time machine and taken back to biblical times and then be tested by God. It's far more hypothetical than that I believe - he was simply wondering that if you were alive in those days and if God were to ask you to kill in his name would you you carry it out?

In that case it's a meaningless question. It's like asking what you would do if you were a goldfish and could only think like a goldfish.

If I had not been through the education, experiences, culture etc. that I have now, then I would be a totally different person. Therefore I can have no idea what I would have done.

stevejazzx

PDN wrote: »

In that case it's a meaningless question. It's like asking what you would do if you were a goldfish and could only think like a goldfish.

If I had not been through the education, experiences, culture etc. that I have now, then I would be a totally different person. Therefore I can have no idea what I would have done.

I believe he prefaces it with "thought experiment" i.e try to imagine yourself living in OT times.
I don't think it's a particularly fair proposition and it does seem to be a somewhat loaded question but I found it interesting nonetheless.

doctoremma

stevejazzx wrote: »

I believe he prefaces it with "thought experiment" i.e try to imagine yourself living in OT times.
I don't think it's a particularly fair proposition and it does seem to be a somewhat loaded question but I found it interesting nonetheless.

I'm with PDN in that I can't imagine myself as any other person except me. If I lived in a time where it was acceptable to slaughter those who didn't agree with you, would I kill those people? Maybe, but I have to base that on what I have understood other people to do and with the realisation that I'm unlikely to be that different. I can't imagine myself personally doing it.

koHd

It seems people think they're not savages running around murdering people because of their experiences and education in life. I happen to believe most balanced humans are born with empathy towards all life. Even without being told murder is wrong' the feelings a normal human should get when sticking a knife, sword, whatever, through another humans flesh and organs and watching he/she die in absolute agony should be enough to prevent you from doing so. And if you do think you could do it for god, I'd ask you to do it slowly a ndlook the person in the eyes as you're doing it and try live with yourself afterwards.

Turtwig

:Facepalm:

Guys this thread isn't about attacking the Christian faith. It's about trying to understand the mindset of the people who carried out God's work. The assumption has been made that everything about Christianity is 100% true.
Edited Original Post.

A quiet one

Berthram wrote: »

And God tempted Abraham and said unto him, Take Isaac, thine only son, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah, and offer him there for a burnt offering upon the mountain which I will show thee."

If you are really interested in this topic (faith) you should read 'Fear and Trembling' by Kierkegaard.
http://www.mv.helsinki.fi/home/tkannist/e-texts/Kierkegaard/fear.htm

'Faith is the highest passion in a man. There are perhaps many in every generation who do not even reach it, but no one gets further.'

Being almost the only real answer to the question (so far) it's a pity you didn't spell it out in more detail.

I'll assume what you might have said is that one would not carry out the 'orders' out of love or fear, but through faith.
Trust is but an element of that faith. The devotee's communion with this faith transends reasoning. And we - the people of today - are not immune to it.

Today, someone claiming to be in direct contact with God is obviously sick, or a fraudster. During a lucid moment, even today's mentally ill are likely to recognise the improbability of such direct line to the Almighty, so this leaves the question, why didn't they do so back then and why didn't others call them on it?

I can only assume the answer might lie in the social hierarchy which fostered a "don't think" existence for its subordinates. And there would be no one today who, if stripped of their family and social supports, and economically or physically subjected to that existence would not fall prey to its effects, even if such a person were to be taken out of their current security and placed in that environment without any time capsule being involved.

Fanny Cradock

PDN wrote: »

If I were transported back in time then, no, I don't think I could kill anyone. What makes me 'me' includes having spent a lifetime in a culture that has been influenced by two thousand years of Christian thought and development. I don't think I would last five minutes if the person I currently am was transported back into the days of Moses or Joshua.

I had typed exactly he same thing before I got sidetracked.

Two things:

1) I simply don't have the imagination to suddenly ditch my morality and adopt another one. Moral decisions such as in Malty's thought experiment will always be through the looking-glass of my morality. Something, I believe, that just so happens to be inseparable from Christianity.
2) Historically I don't understand what it was like to exist 3500 years ago in a culture that is completely removed from mine.

Turtwig

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

2) Historically I don't understand what it was like to exist 3500 years ago in a culture that is completely removed from mine.

I was hoping to delve into this part of it and see if you could imagine what the culture was like at such a time. So we could appreciate the enormity (or minuteness) of the tasks that God asks His followers to carry out.

Soul Winner

Malty_T wrote: »

Suppose, you were alive in the times of the OT and suppose you were asked by God to carry out one of His more controversial acts* e.g Killing the Canaanites. In the spur of the moment though, do you really think you would have been able to do so?

Spur of the moment? Probably not. After some long meditation and through a fear of what might happen to me if I fail to obey? Then most likely yes. If I was one of those people who had witnessed first hand all of the wonders that God did by delivering His people out of the land of Egypt then I would be pretty foolish not to obey Him in this regard. Maybe being the all knowing God that He is it just might be possible that He knows that these people are not going to just surrender the land to the Israelites. And being the creator of the lands in the first place then they are God's lands to give to whomever He wants. God had promised that land to Abraham and his descendants and all He was doing was paying good on His promise to them. That the Canaanite's had to be destroyed would be more to do with their recalcitrance and rebellion to the will of God than to the pleasure from gratuitous violence toward them by the Israelites. And we must remember that God killed all the Israelites over 20 years of age because they waited one day too long to act on the command of God to take the land. They wouldn't do it and God wiped all of them out over 20 years of age. So if God exists and you know from experience and what you witnessed that He does, and that you have been given the choice by Him to either wipe these people out and take the land or be destroyed by God yourself, then for me I would have to not only take these people out but do what was my moral obligation under God to do.

But viewing these events through the spectacles of modernity and political correctness it is easy to take the moral high ground and judge the actions of these people. But in their time, they had little choice. It was either conquer the land or die yourself. It would be the Carlsberg add equivalent of "they're not great options are they?" But if God exists and you have been privy to witness His power first hand then to obey God and do what He says is the wisest choice IMO. Or you could choose to be like the Israelites and put God on trial and get wiped out yourself.

Malty_T wrote: »

If so, what do you think would have utterly compelled you into doing so, fear of God or trust in Him? Or, perhaps, something else?

Both fear and trust. Fear because He can destroy me, and trust because I know He knows what he is doing. God knows the heart, and is not one who uses forceful means without a warning first. Many times in the Old Testament God sent prophets to warn certain nations (including their own nations Israel and Judah theselves) that unless they repent (i.e. turn from their evil ways) they will be punished. Some nations believed the prophets as in the case the people of Nineveh and others didn't as in the case of Jericho but in each case God had warned them first. I believe God gave these occupiers of His land plenty of warning (although AFAIK it is not recorded in scripture) to get off the land, but they would not move. Hence they must be moved. But we mustn't look at this moving of people in the same way that we would view a construction company wiping out a tribal people in order to pillage the resources of their lands. We are assuming that God exists and that He has commanded a certain people to do something that goes against even their own nature to do or be destroyed themselves. If you choose the latter then pride is your master not God and all you would be doing is serving that pride in disobedience to God. It is the same in Christianity today, in oder to serve God we must die to self and commit our lives to Him in trust. At all times we must assume God knows what He is doing and trust Him, that is what faith in Him is.

Fanny Cradock

Malty_T wrote: »

I was hoping to delve into this part of it and see if you could imagine what the culture was like at such a time. So we could appreciate the enormity (or minuteness) of the tasks that God asks His followers to carry out.

Oh dear, I had a post typed up but it's now gone

In brief, I'm assuming that I don't have a modern understanding of morality based in no small part on Christian values.

If I was an Israelite living approximately 3500 years ago and I believed that God had commanded me to do such, I admit that I would probably attack and kill my enemies.

PDN

Malty_T wrote: »

I was hoping to delve into this part of it and see if you could imagine what the culture was like at such a time. So we could appreciate the enormity (or minuteness) of the tasks that God asks His followers to carry out.

So, I am to imagine that I am part of a tribe of people who have been slaves for generations, generally getting crapped on by the Egyptians. Also that I've seen God work miracles in the wilderness on a daily basis. I have no cultural background of toleration of others. Now I'm in a new geographical area where everyone else hates our guts and wants to wipe us out. I think anyone, in that set of circumstances, would kill our enemies before they did the same to us.

It just makes me glad that I live where I do and when I do.

Fanny Cradock

Monosharp and KoHd, please read the very first post for clarification on what this thread is about and why your posts are unacceptable. If you wish to challenge Christian responses, please start another thread. I'll send you a copy of your posts should your require them. (Star Trek links are, of course, optional.)

Twin-go

PDN wrote: »

So, I am to imagine that I am part of a tribe of people who have been slaves for generations, generally getting crapped on by the Egyptians. Also that I've seen God work miracles in the wilderness on a daily basis. I have no cultural background of toleration of others. Now I'm in a new geographical area where everyone else hates our guts and wants to wipe us out. I think anyone, in that set of circumstances, would kill our enemies before they did the same to us.

It just makes me glad that I live where I do and when I do.

Sounds like current day Middle East.

In responce to the OP.

The mindset in those times was one of a fear of God. People could be influenced by those in power to believe their actions are Gods will.

Its kind of equivilent to:
A Security worker robbing a bank if he was told that his family would be hurt if he didn't a la Tiger Kidnappings.