Doing a second undergrad?

LegacyUser

I'll soon be finishing up the final year of my degree. Always thought I'd do a masters, PHD and go wherever I had to in order to get a lecturing job on the subject. It's an aspiration that all my friends say due to not wanting to ever leave college, but I've had my eye on it ever since I was a kid (I love my course and am extremely good at it. University staff have mentioned to me a few times I'd be excellent in academia)

I recently came across an undergrad course in Scotland for a related course I've long had a fascination with. As an Irish student I'd pay no fees for doing and I'm really entranced by it. I'm a great student and there's an advanced entry program where I could do the program in 3 years rather than 4.

Thing is though, if I go ahead and do this as well as my coveted Masters/PHD, I'd be 29/30 by the time I leave college. I'm a bit worried about being that age and only just leaving college.

The course I'd like to do definetely has a bearing on my PHD topic.A considerable impact, but not a major one. My parents have been supportive of my future postgrad decisions but I'm wondering whether I should go for this one. I'd need some financial support from them for an extra 3 years (though I'd do my best to work in Scotland to offset costs).
It's something I know I'd love to do but I'm worried about only entering the world of full time work at 30 rather than 27. I'd be up for moving anywhere I was offered a lecturing job; all I want to do is work in that subject. Thing is though, there's no guarantees of when a job would arise so I'd need to do something else to keep myself going. Would it look terrible on a CV to be that age without full time work? (I work part time to put myself through college, that's about it)

As for reasons I want to do it; it's just something I'm fascinated in which was only touched upon in my current undergrad. Would be a bonus for my coveted PHD topic but I'm wondering if the above justify 3 years out of the workforce.

dnme

I'm 43 and doing my Masters. I am applying for PhD's now in Ireland, Canada and the USA. Hopefully I will be able for the PhD (thats a gamble I have decised to take) and by the time I am finished, I will be 46-47.

Go for it, you are still very young and have all the time in the world. I would sooner be 47 with a PhD than 47 without. Academia is a great profession to be in if you are worried about age. You can be an active academic into your 90's if you wish.

Compare that to my game - computing. It's so ageist. There are very few people working in IT over 50, thats one of the reasons why I have decided to head towards the academic rather than industry side of it.

cafecolour

Well, 27 and 10 years of school vs 30 and 13 years of school isn't going to make a big difference

If it's something you've always had a fascination with and it'll have a measurable benefit to your future PHD/lecturing/research than I'd say go for it.

If you're just the intellectually curious type and this is one of many things you're fascinated with that would be related to your course, I'd say maybe skip it. You don't want to end up keep adding degrees til you're 50

One caveat - I'd try and get a masters in the topic (even if a 2nd masters) rather than a 2nd undergrad. 2 masters looks better then 2 undergrads, and a masters program will let you focus on your topic without having to do all the general filler of an undergrad course.

damnyanks

I would look at doing a masters at the college in scotland as opposed to another 4 year undergrad. You could do a two year research masters in the field and you'd know a lot more than doing an undergrad.

There is also the taught masters aspect of it, which would take one year and would essentially be more and above than the undergrad.

If you are serious about doing the undergrad get incontact with the course dean. By the sounds of it you've done work in a related field so you may be allowed to skip into a further year.

But doing a second undergrad is pointless, I'd look at doing a masters instead.

spinandscribble

I'm going to undertake a new undergrad next year hopefully in a Fine Art course after doing a BA. You've only one life and you could turn your back on this chance but given the current climate and your still young age you'd be mad not to pursue it!

I think you'll find a pervious undergrad gets you a certain amount of respect when you do apply and as long as you did well enough, it's a great spring board. You know how to write, study ect.

I'll be 29/30 after i secure all the qualifications i need as well for my planned career but as far as i see it i'd prefer that then to be in the wrong field or area. go for it!

edit: jumped the gun there, i see its related to your field, have you fully investigated masters that you could apply for from that field instead?

Magenta

Have you confirmed with the college in Scotland that you won't have to pay fees?

I wanted to do a second undergrad there but was told I would have to pay fees as I already have a degree.

Denerick

Do it. You're only young once, and it'll be so much harder when you hit 35+. Life's too short.

AARRRGH

You only have one life. If you don't live it the way you want to live it, you have failed.

I'm going to disagree with other posters and say no, I wouldn't do it.

First of all, you can't afford to do it. I'm sure others will disagree, but I think it's far too much to be asking your parents to fund you for this. I can't see why you need to do this, and while it would be nice, I personally would not be comfortable for my parents to be paying for something I just fancied doing, and at that age (mid to late twenties).

Also, I see no real benefit to having a second undergrad. I don't see how it'd make a difference to your career in academia. I think you'd be better off doing two Masters courses than another undergrad - the level is much higher and you can specialise much more, while an undergrad is just a taster course in many ways (depending on the subject). You can do Masters in a year in the UK, so saving yourself living costs and time. You would also be eligible for different types of funding.

I also think it does look rather bad to have no full time work experience at 30. If you want to be an academic that isn't really a problem, but if you change your mind and want to enter the 'real world', a lot of employers will have a problem with it. I'll tell you now, I had problems at 22-23 because I had no 'proper experience' - employers seemed to expect that I was going to be sheltered and clueless. Now, in some field it might not be an issue, and I know that they value education much more on the continent than in Ireland (and they also study for longer), so it depends where you plan to live and work. Either way, I personally think 30 is pushing it a bit to have no work experience at all.

I don't agree that you should do it now because life's too short. I'm on a Masters course and at 24 am one of the younger students. Many people are around the 30 mark, a few are 40-50. A lot of them have relevant experience in this field and some were just waiting until they could afford to do the course. If you love learning, I don't see the problem with going back at a later stage.

Basically, I think doing a second undergrad is a waste of time, unless you're loaded and can afford to be a lifelong student, or you realised you did the wrong thing the first time around and need a completely different degree to work in your chosen field. I can't see the negatives outweighing the positives otherwise. I think you'd be better moving upwards rather than staying on the same level, and I think 3 years spent working or even in internships (before or after your postgrad study) would be better spent than 3 more years of undergrad.

petethebrick

It would be a waste of time doing another undergrad.
Forget about people telling you to 'go for it' etc - think rationally about why you would do another undergrad.
It sounds like its just because you're interested in it i.e as a hobby rather than serving an academic purpose -two undergraduate degrees serve no purpose - it's time for you to move up to the next level.
If you're that interested in the subject area then study it in your own time as part of your postgraduate studies.
Plus forget about age issues - I'm 29 now and just starting my PhD!
Good luck

pookie82

[quote=[Deleted User];63747601]I'm going to disagree with other posters and say no, I wouldn't do it.

First of all, you can't afford to do it. I'm sure others will disagree, but I think it's far too much to be asking your parents to fund you for this. I can't see why you need to do this, and while it would be nice, I personally would not be comfortable for my parents to be paying for something I just fancied doing, and at that age (mid to late twenties).

Also, I see no real benefit to having a second undergrad. I don't see how it'd make a difference to your career in academia. I think you'd be better off doing two Masters courses than another undergrad - the level is much higher and you can specialise much more, while an undergrad is just a taster course in many ways (depending on the subject). You can do Masters in a year in the UK, so saving yourself living costs and time. You would also be eligible for different types of funding.

I also think it does look rather bad to have no full time work experience at 30. If you want to be an academic that isn't really a problem, but if you change your mind and want to enter the 'real world', a lot of employers will have a problem with it. I'll tell you now, I had problems at 22-23 because I had no 'proper experience' - employers seemed to expect that I was going to be sheltered and clueless. Now, in some field it might not be an issue, and I know that they value education much more on the continent than in Ireland (and they also study for longer), so it depends where you plan to live and work. Either way, I personally think 30 is pushing it a bit to have no work experience at all.

I don't agree that you should do it now because life's too short. I'm on a Masters course and at 24 am one of the younger students. Many people are around the 30 mark, a few are 40-50. A lot of them have relevant experience in this field and some were just waiting until they could afford to do the course. If you love learning, I don't see the problem with going back at a later stage.

Basically, I think doing a second undergrad is a waste of time, unless you're loaded and can afford to be a lifelong student, or you realised you did the wrong thing the first time around and need a completely different degree to work in your chosen field. I can't see the negatives outweighing the positives otherwise. I think you'd be better moving upwards rather than staying on the same level, and I think 3 years spent working or even in internships (before or after your postgrad study) would be better spent than 3 more years of undergrad.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with this. Forget about people telling you to go for it because you only have one life etc, there's no point in being completely impractical and spending another three years on a course which isn't a post grad. I think you should try to continue moving up the ladder - it sounds like you have the potential to do so. This other subject area is something you could easily revert to as a post doc or in later years once you have your masters/PhD. I wouldn't ask your parents to put you through another 3 years to get no further in terms of degree status. I was in college for 7 years doing various post grads and one of the motivating factors in my leaving to begin a career was the fact that although my parents were extremely supportive of me, I just couldn't live with relying on them financially any longer.

leahcim

I would also agree with the above posters.

An undergrad is just a foundation course, where you get a taster of many areas in your chosen field. I would only consider doing a second undergrad if I wanted a complete change of field.

For academia you would be much better off picking one of the areas introduced in your undergrad and specialising. These days you probably need a phd to get a lecturing job.

If I wanted to get into academia I wouldn't consider doing a thought masters, most people I know who have a phd went straight into research after doing their undergrad and started a masters. Then if their research was original or good enough they skipped submitting for a masters and went straight for the phd or else they finished their masters and extended their research to get a phd.

IMHO when you go for jobs in academia its about what research you have done and whether you can bring something new to their faculty. I doubt they would care much about how many undergrad courses you have done.

Denerick

I didn't read this properly last night, I thought he was on about doing a second postgrad. I wouldn't bother doing a second undergrad, personally. Get a couple years work first.

dnme

Denerick wrote: »

I didn't read this properly last night, I thought he was on about doing a second postgrad. I wouldn't bother doing a second undergrad, personally. Get a couple years work first.

+1, same here
I thought op was on about doing another postgrad. Ignore my advice above

Dave!

I'd agree that it's not a great move. Look around at lecturers' CV's, I don't think I've ever seen a second undergrad on one. It'd be quite unusual, and I don't think particularly impressive. As mentioned, the standard is higher in postgrads, so do a couple of those if you're so inclined. I'd see it as a bit of a waste of time to do another undergrad.

Just my 2c

Jo King

I would not take any advice from people who can misunderstand a straightforward post. The financial position is something you and your parents have to consider between you. The age you finish at is not particularly relevant. If you go onto a PHd programme you will probably be taking on some part time work anyway. An extra undergraduate degree might give you an edge academically. I work in a field where there are many dual qualified people. The cross fertilisation between different disciplines is very useful.

Denerick

Jo King wrote: »

I would not take any advice from people who can misunderstand a straightforward post. The financial position is something you and your parents have to consider between you. The age you finish at is not particularly relevant. If you go onto a PHd programme you will probably be taking on some part time work anyway. An extra undergraduate degree might give you an edge academically. I work in a field where there are many dual qualified people. The cross fertilisation between different disciplines is very useful.

I was drunk when I posted last night, but alas, I wake up tonight and yet you remain a boorish dullard.

Silverfish

Denerick wrote: »

I was drunk when I posted last night, but alas, I wake up tonight and yet you remain a boorish dullard.

Personal abuse is not permitted on the PI forum, please read the charter before posting. Infracted.

Electric

I'd have to agree with the above posters too. A second undergrad is rather pointless, especially since it seems to be more of a hobby subject than something with might provide employment or improve career prospects.

IMO a Masters would be a much better option. As previous posters have said it will demonstrate that you are moving upwards in terms of academics and it will help hone and prove research skills which will come in handy in academia.

I would be wary of leaving college at 30 with no actual work experience. To my mind you would be better trying to get some work in your chosen field, that way you can show prospective employers that you have practical experience and can 'walk the walk' so to speak. You might consider working and studying at the same time. It's hard work (I know from experience) but you'll have experience and a qualification.

In my area (law) I know that we have rejected applicants for jobs, despite the fact that they have excellent academics, simply because they have no practical experience.

Anyways I think you'd be better off pursuing a postgrad but best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

tenchi-fan

Argybargy wrote: »

As for reasons I want to do it; it's just something I'm fascinated in which was only touched upon in my current undergrad. Would be a bonus for my coveted PHD topic but I'm wondering if the above justify 3 years out of the workforce.

I know a guy who is the happiest person I know. I want to slap him across the face. He did four years in his original undergraduate course (3 years, repeated the third, then dropped out), followed by another 4 year course, followed by a masters, and now he considers his low-paid (overpaid before the cuts in the budget!) job in "community development" as a form of adult education from which he draws a sickeningly smug sense of self satisfaction.

I always laughed that he was going to perpetually be a student. Now we're both 28 and for my extra 4 years in the labour force I don't think I've achieved much more than he has - anything I earned in that time has been spent a long time ago. My job's only slightly higher paid, but he seems to enjoy his more. my career's more stable but .. this sounds bad.. I don't enjoy my job and I'd be just as likely to leave, esp if a new manager came in and we didn't click.

The alternative for you is the masters. If your current discipline touched on it (the area that interests you), chances are you'll be able to do the masters in it.

I did a masters. It was a waste of time and I even told a previous employer at an interview that I just did a 4-year degree rather than admit to wasting a year doing a soul-crushingly boring and irrelevant masters (I only did it because I didn't have a job).

Guess what I'm trying to say is, just do whatever makes you happy. You don't need to consider it from a Financial, academic or time-wise point of view! Why are you in such a hurry to be part of the rat race? If you think you'll enjoy it you should go for it. IT'S IN SCOTLAND FFS! That's an experience in itself!!

leahcim

Argybargy wrote: »

University staff have mentioned to me a few times I'd be excellent in academia

Why don't you run your idea of doing another undergrad past the University staff that you mention above. They have been there done that and should be able to tell you if the other undergrad course will be of any benefit for doing a PHD in the future.

LegacyUser

Argybargy wrote: »

I'll soon be finishing up the final year of my degree. Always thought I'd do a masters, PHD and go wherever I had to in order to get a lecturing job on the subject. It's an aspiration that all my friends say due to not wanting to ever leave college, but I've had my eye on it ever since I was a kid (I love my course and am extremely good at it. University staff have mentioned to me a few times I'd be excellent in academia)

I recently came across an undergrad course in Scotland for a related course I've long had a fascination with. As an Irish student I'd pay no fees for doing and I'm really entranced by it. I'm a great student and there's an advanced entry program where I could do the program in 3 years rather than 4.

Thing is though, if I go ahead and do this as well as my coveted Masters/PHD, I'd be 29/30 by the time I leave college. I'm a bit worried about being that age and only just leaving college.

The course I'd like to do definetely has a bearing on my PHD topic.A considerable impact, but not a major one. My parents have been supportive of my future postgrad decisions but I'm wondering whether I should go for this one. I'd need some financial support from them for an extra 3 years (though I'd do my best to work in Scotland to offset costs).
It's something I know I'd love to do but I'm worried about only entering the world of full time work at 30 rather than 27. I'd be up for moving anywhere I was offered a lecturing job; all I want to do is work in that subject. Thing is though, there's no guarantees of when a job would arise so I'd need to do something else to keep myself going. Would it look terrible on a CV to be that age without full time work? (I work part time to put myself through college, that's about it)

As for reasons I want to do it; it's just something I'm fascinated in which was only touched upon in my current undergrad. Would be a bonus for my coveted PHD topic but I'm wondering if the above justify 3 years out of the workforce.

Right. Where to start. I was in your position, but decided to do the PhD instead of another undergrad. I'm now 37 with the PhD firmly under my belt but I messed up: I chose a PhD subject that I was really passionate about and I did a really good thesis on it but, as I'm in reality an awful idiot, the subject (never mind the topic) I chose has no job opportunities, particularly in these recessionary times.

Lesson One: Whatever you decide to do, make sure you can, after spending all this time, make a career out of it (getting a job is not sufficient after all these years). Everything else is bullsh!t. Don't get me wrong, while I'm still poor I'm very glad I got to the top of the education system and stuck with it while everybody I went to school with was creaming it in the Celtic Tiger days. I still place a huge value on education and am a quietly proud guy about it all, but I do not believe in a simple unqualified "follow you heart" approach to education anymore. I was too idealistic.

I am now, at 37 years of age, almost certainly going back to get a "serious" education in a subject which has more monetary value for society. Even to me, that's a bit pitiful, especially when I don't feel the need to "prove" myself anymore. It's more like a prison at a time in my life when I should be receiving financial rewards from my years of slogging, isolation and impecuniousness. It's certainly not freedom.

In a nutshell, therefore: if this second degree will put you on a firm career path, then I would say go for it. However, you have said it only "has a bearing" on the PhD topic which you really want to do. Then do not, under any circumstances, do that particular second degree. Get straight into the PhD now; you'll just be dancing around the PhD with that second degree. Jump into the deep end. The PhD just gets bigger and bigger as long as you dance around it. Re-read that. But, and this is the most important point, you really have to have done your research well to opt for the PhD you are choosing. Have you asked people in the industry their views on the course? That is the minimum. The doctorate is one of the greatest, and most rewarding, challenges a single person can face. It is a huge self-discovery. But it will have consequences for your private life, when you marry, when you can get a mortgage and, what nobody really says, balancing the demands of a relationship with the isolation and insularity which is essential to create a good PhD thesis. I, for one, found it very hard to switch roles.

Argybargy wrote: »

It's something I know I'd love to do but I'm worried about only entering the world of full time work at 30 rather than 27. I'd be up for moving anywhere I was offered a lecturing job; all I want to do is work in that subject. Thing is though, there's no guarantees of when a job would arise so I'd need to do something else to keep myself going.

Please do not fool yourself about this. Check your heart at the door anois. To get a permanent lecturing position could take at least ten years. Most people who do PhDs (c. 80%) leave academia quickly and go into things as diverse as consulting, government and industry. Those who remain go on the "post doc merry-go-round" for a few years before giving up the ghost. It's a really, really depressing sight. If you piss off one person, you could lose out on any of these positions. The vast, vast majority of post-doc positions revolve around a tiny network of people. The politics is huge. It really is a single person's game and by their mid-30s most people want to prioritise building a family. Where's the mortgage going to come from? Not that €30,000 post-Doc two-year contract I can tell you.

Under no circumstances should you put your heart and soul into a PhD unless there is a *certainty* that it will make a massive difference to your career prospects.

PS: Never mind academics telling you you'd be excellent in academia; they get paid through your fees. It is in their remit to recruit you. Sorry for being cynical here.

PPS: I wouldn't worry about the CV. You will be able to fill that up. Employers tend to admire somebody who finished a PhD, but also fear that they may not be grounded enough.