Will you Boycott the tolled Limerick Tunnel?

Raiser

When is the last time you paid to drive through Corks Jack Lynch Tunnel and how much did it cost you?

The fact is that despite original plans to toll this route the People of Cork refused to accept that proposition on any level.

Seeing as they paid and continue to pay enough VAT on petrol/diesel, VAT on all car parts, VRT and substantial Motor tax they felt that it was ludicrous to ask the poor Motorist to pay even more to drive on a National road.

They were of course right and to this day their common sense and backbone has kept the route toll-free.

Interestingly enough one of the main points of leverage was that the Jack Lynch Tunnel was so close to Cork City Centre it was feared that congestion would result in the City as People avoided the tolls - Sound familiar.....? Morons.

I for one would prefer to push my Car over the New Bridge and out the Condell Road than to pay whatever greedy and already ridiculously wealthy Private Investors Fianna Fail allowed in the door to rob us blind......

If enough People avoid paying this toll altogether they will have to reverse this opportunistic money-making plan or else let the road, tunnel and toll booth sit there unmaintained and unused indefinitely.

neo2010

We shouldn't have to pay for a tunnel built with taxpayers money- which is paid by us. Down with the establishment! :pac:

source

Lads this tunnel was built under PPP (Public Private Partnership), which means that investors put money into the building of the tunnel, if these investors didn't put their own money into the project then it would never have been built.

The problem arises in the fact that these investors will want their money back, which is where the toll comes in. While in theory yes it would be a great idea to avoid the tunnel altogether, and force the gov't and NRA to abolish the toll, the simple fact of the matter is that the gov't borrowed from private investors to build the road and they need paying back.

When the Jack Lynch Tunnel was built there was a lot of money floating around in the economy for the gov't to be able to turn around and pay off the investors, but this time around there is not.

While i agree with the sentiments of the OP i think it's unrealistic, because of what i've outlined above.

johnmolloy554

Raiser wrote: »

Will you Boycott the tolled Limerick Tunnel?

No. And those that do will change their minds when they see the congestion on Condell Road at 8.30am / 5.00pm. Tolled roads are here for good I'm afraid.

Pushtrak

Also, I wouldn't think not paying a toll will result in eliminating the fee, but increasing the fee. That seems to be the usual response to this kind of thing, isn't it? Or am I wrong?

I'm not a driver, anyway, and ask this more out of a curiosity thing rather than practical.

v300

As is usual with a project like this, they will (mark my words)
rip up the old pre-existing road like the Condell Road to do
"essential repairs" for 3 weeks after the tunnel opens,
thereby forcing the road users to either trek thru' a crowded
Limerick city or fly thru' the tunnel.

zuroph

nope, company pays the toll for me, it means i get to whereever i'm going quicker and by the sounds of it will be lovely and quiet!

neo2010

The government should have simply financed the building of the tunnel themselves instead of having to incur tolls on the public to pay back investors. It's not like they didn't have the money.

D-A-V-E

im seeing that there are already massive toll booths and big fancy towers around them, why dont they make them electronic at least? so that queues wont accumulate? like what they're doing on the m1

Raiser

foinse wrote: »

Lads this tunnel was built under PPP (Public Private Partnership), which means that investors put money into the building of the tunnel, if these investors didn't put their own money into the project then it would never have been built.

The problem arises in the fact that these investors will want their money back, which is where the toll comes in. While in theory yes it would be a great idea to avoid the tunnel altogether, and force the gov't and NRA to abolish the toll, the simple fact of the matter is that the gov't borrowed from private investors to build the road and they need paying back.

When the Jack Lynch Tunnel was built there was a lot of money floating around in the economy for the gov't to be able to turn around and pay off the investors, but this time around there is not.

While i agree with the sentiments of the OP i think it's unrealistic, because of what i've outlined above.

With all due respect Foinse, and to argue with your case rather than just be contrary, the above is built on a foundation of partial fact and delivered by someone who seems to come have accepted what is a ludicrous and totally unsatisfactory situation as an acceptable norm.

The Investors in this project are individuals who have amassed great fortunes by habitually spotting opportunities - they will not "want their money back" - That doesn't make any sense whatsoever as it would not benefit them in any way..... No they want their money back plus whatever substantial figures Fianna Fail, the NRA and the Scum within both who are hoping to profit as a sideline, have promised them will flood into their own overflowing Bank accounts day on day & year on year indefinitely. Given the undisputed existing wealth involved here you can be guaranteed the sums involved will not be a pittance either.

Imagine this scenario for example, stand on the Condell road with a bucket demanding €3 from every car that passes you for 24 hours - How long before you need another bucket? How long before you need a Securicor Van?

On another note - Why couldn't this project ever have been built without asking Wealthy Investors to come on board? Thats nonsense, Countries that have never even dreamed of robbing its Citizens blind by inventing a shameful double taxation curse called VRT can build roads - they tax their Citizens and then they can afford the roads. We collect tax everywhere, we even have inheritance tax so that when your Granny dies the Revenue Commissioner leaves her funeral with his cut overflowing from his briefcase.....

There is so much taxation revolving around the simple act of buying, owning, running and maintaining a car it is actually amazing that we are not all back on horseback. To then turn around and say that we can't afford to build a road without investment from Britain's Aristocracy or whoever else wants to turn a handy profit at the Irish Taxpayers expense is absolutely incredible.

I sincerely hope that People refuse to comply with this greedy, unfair, opportunistic, cynical undertaking - If we don't have standards that we are prepared to stand by and a sense of right and wrong in the face of those that seek to do us an injustice then we are indeed going to be poor in spirit as well as in material things.

Berty

No we should not boycott the Toll.

As a PPP company they must have a return in the cost of building the road. I think the cost of travelling through it justifies the cost of the toll.

source

Raiser, the only country i know that has big relatively toll free roads is the USA, most other countries, especially European countries have toll roads. I was in France last August and it cost me €35 to travel from Rennes to Dieppe on Autoroutes. This PPP practice is the norm, while i don't agree with it, it's a well established way of building expensive roads.

Raiser

Berty wrote: »

No we should not boycott the Toll.

As a PPP company they must have a return in the cost of building the road. I think the cost of travelling through it justifies the cost of the toll.

Why in the name of God do you feel that a consortium of Wealthy Individuals and Organisations who are driven by greed into persuading a corrupt Government to neglect one of its most basic duties should be rewarded by making massive profits?

Its wrong on so many levels - even from a simple monetary perspective the sums just don't add up - If tolling roads is profitable then why don't they toll them and use the resulting return of funds to build Incinerators for the Green Party?

So who are the "Private" element involved here?

Take a look at the directroute.ie site here

Last link is for Halliburtons KBR arm - Link is broken though? Strange that although Halliburton does seem to be making certain moves to distance itself from KBR if you're to believe the points raised here

KBRs own Wiki page here has the alarming sections:

Employee Safety - 81 dead and 380 injured in ~18 months
Sexual Assault - References Gang rape.
Human Trafficing Lawsuit - Forced labour abroad while dispossessed of passport.
Burns Pit Lawsuit - Burning hazardous toxic waste - ~20 Lawsuits
Political Controversy - Too long to detail here - It sound like something Fianna Fail would relish though.
Tax avoidance via Cayman Isles - Self explanatory.
Bribing Nigerian Officials - "tens of millions of dollars" in bribes to Nigerian officials in order to win government contracts

Seems like the last thing that KBR need right now is to be publicly associated with Fianna Fail - Now that might really be an embarrassment......

oh well

will probably not use it if at all possible, even during peak times. They have tolled just the tunnel and not all the other much longer approach roads. Cars can travel long lengths from Newport area to Adare and not pay a penny and the shortest (ok, ok .... and the most expensive road) will cost probably in region of 3e each way.

by the way, wonder who's behind the new signs on the Condel Road - "Bus Lane and No Bus Route", "Waste of our tax Euros", and "give us roadds we can use". Just came along the new bus lane on Ennis Road outside maternity this afternoon, ffs. What a major waste of time, money and space.

phog

I'll pay the toll when I think it is the better option to use that route, the same as I do when I use the M50 and M8 between Mitchelstown and the Jack Lynch tunnel.

There's many a time I've sat on Lwr Shelbourne Rd and said I'd gladly pay my few euro to cross the Shannon now.

source

The thing people seem to not realise, is the toll is for the portion of the road which is causing the most expense, for example the M50 toll is for the rather massive bridge which had to be built, same with the M8 passing Fermoy, the Dublin port tunnel, and here in Limerick it will be the tunnel, Sure no toll would be fantastic in an ideal world, , however we're talking about something that costs a phenomenal amount of money to build, that money must come from somewhere.


And yes raiser, the investors will get a percentage of the profit once the building costs have been offset, that's how the business world works, someone gives you the money now to do something you want to do, on the understanding that they will get something in return.

Before you start going on about how this is supposed to be a public amenity, it is not. what it is, is a company set up by the Gov't and private investors, to provide a service to the public at a nominal cost.

While you might not think this is an acceptable way of providing roads to the people of this country, I realise that these projects cost a lot of money which has to come from somewhere. Also it seems to be an acceptable method to pretty much every other country in the world where large scale road projects have taken place.

Also the fact that there is a toll on the M8 leading into the tunnel, would i imagine, have aided in the ability of the PPP company to not have a toll on the jack lynch tunnel. Allowing them to still recoup the cost of the tunnel and the bridge and also earn a profit from the running of these.

zuroph

D-A-V-E wrote: »

im seeing that there are already massive toll booths and big fancy towers around them, why dont they make them electronic at least? so that queues wont accumulate? like what they're doing on the m1

This will be fine, all lanes will be equipped to deal with tags and some free flow lanes will be in place too. They work fine in fermoy and waterford

phog

oh well wrote: »

will probably not use it if at all possible, even during peak times. They have tolled just the tunnel and not all the other much longer approach roads. Cars can travel long lengths from Newport area to Adare and not pay a penny and the shortest (ok, ok .... and the most expensive road) will cost probably in region of 3e each way.

by the way, wonder who's behind the new signs on the Condel Road - "Bus Lane and No Bus Route", "Waste of our tax Euros", and "give us roadds we can use". Just came along the new bus lane on Ennis Road outside maternity this afternoon, ffs. What a major waste of time, money and space.

Well at least there's a bus route on this road unlike the Condell Rd.

seclachi

I`ll use it, but I dont live in Limerick, so it will be occasional. You can give out about VRT, Vat and everything else, but it wont make the balance sheets add up at the end of the day. It would be great if the government could pay for the whole thing, as it will be more effective with less toll dodgers like in Cork.

Either way though, having the tunnel is a benefit, either if its tolled or not, if you use it you will get a faster journey, if you dont you`ll benefit from less heavy traffic.I have been in plenty of other developed countrys which people exclaim are far better than ireland that also have tolls for many bridges and the like, its just a fact of life.

oh well

but the bus route outside the maternity is surely all of 100meters broken up twice by left turns. Can't see where a bus is going to make any headway at all there. Remember reading in one of the papers the cost of it and I thought it was going to be the length of the Ennis Road from the Union Cross from the price of it.

sceptre

Raiser wrote: »

I for one would prefer to push my Car over the New Bridge and out the Condell Road

Wouldn't even dream of boycotting the tunnel then - I'd hate to get stuck behind that in traffic.

nouveau_4.0

Calm down people. Tho Clondell road is still open. The tunnel is an alternative you can choose to pay for if you wish. The PPP aren't taking money out of your pocket, unless you choose to use their product.

Also the private part have a cap on how much they earn from this tunnel. When they reach their target of original investment + X% profit they hand it back to the government, who can then choose to remove the toll, or generate some income for the country from it. Something which did not happen on the M50 if I'm not mistaken. We should be more outraged about the M50, than the Limerick tunnel.

Berty

nouveau_4.0 wrote: »

We should be more outraged about the M50, than the Limerick tunnel.

Pah! Councillors in Dublin said that there should be an increase in tax so the M50 would be removed with little care for people who do not drive on the M50.

So if Dubliner's do not care about anything past the pale then why should people in Limerick care about the M50.

Victor

Raiser wrote: »

We collect tax everywhere, we even have inheritance tax so that when your Granny dies the Revenue Commissioner leaves her funeral with his cut overflowing from his briefcase.....

Ah, come on, while this thread has its fair share of gobshítism, we do not have an inheritance tax, nevermind one that collects at funerals.

We do have Capital Acquisitions Tax, which has very generous allowances - the first half million you get from your parents is tax free. Now, if you want to target rich individuals, target that.

irishvamp90

oh well wrote: »

will probably not use it if at all possible, even during peak times. They have tolled just the tunnel and not all the other much longer approach roads. Cars can travel long lengths from Newport area to Adare and not pay a penny and the shortest (ok, ok .... and the most expensive road) will cost probably in region of 3e each way.

by the way, wonder who's behind the new signs on the Condel Road - "Bus Lane and No Bus Route", "Waste of our tax Euros", and "give us roadds we can use". Just came along the new bus lane on Ennis Road outside maternity this afternoon, ffs. What a major waste of time, money and space.

Someone making a good point and having a protest

irishvamp90

why didnt they just build simple buildings?no need for big fancy towers for feck sake

Mc Love

Simple answer - NO

Victor

Kinsale Road to Dunkettle via tunnel. 100% national route. All dual carriageway. 8.4 km – about 9 mins.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Kinsale+Rd%2FN27&daddr=51.904487,-8.387203&hl=en&geocode=FbWBFwMdNrN-_w%3B&mra=dme&mrcr=0&mrsp=1&sz=15&sll=51.903745,-8.383341&sspn=0.011333,0.027595&ie=UTF8&ll=51.891007,-8.426685&spn=0.045343,0.110378&t=h&z=13

Kinsale Road to Dunkettle via South City Link Road. 100% national route. Mostly dual carriageway or free-flowing one-way streets. 9.1 km – about 14 mins

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Kinsale+Rd%2FN27&daddr=51.901495,-8.460503+to:Unknown+road&hl=en&geocode=FbWBFwMdNrN-_w%3B%3BFYoAGAMdygaA_w&mra=dpe&mrcr=0&mrsp=1&sz=13&via=1&sll=51.894503,-8.4375&sspn=0.04534,0.110378&ie=UTF8&ll=51.891113,-8.431492&spn=0.045343,0.110378&t=h&z=13

Conclusion: putting a toll on the Jack Lynch Tunnel would be ineffective as most traffic would bypass it.

Now, sure, you can not use the tunnel, but in doing so, you are driving through urban areas, costing yourself and society.

Raiser wrote: »

The fact is that despite original plans to toll this route the People of Cork refused to accept that proposition on any level.

Actually, there wasn't a whole lot of discussion about it. Certainly not whiny threads on the internet.

Seeing as they paid and continue to pay enough VAT on petrol/diesel, VAT on all car parts, VRT and substantial Motor tax they felt that it was ludicrous to ask the poor Motorist to pay even more to drive on a National road.

Never entered the equation.

Interestingly enough one of the main points of leverage was that the Jack Lynch Tunnel was so close to Cork City Centre it was feared that congestion would result in the City as People avoided the tolls - Sound familiar.....? Morons.

Eh, no. The South City Link Road and the Collins and DeVelera Bridges meant that much traffic could already avoid the core of the city centre.

I for one would prefer to push my Car over the New Bridge and out the Condell Road than to pay whatever greedy and already ridiculously wealthy Private Investors Fianna Fail allowed in the door to rob us blind......

It was a public tender. if it was such a money making racket others would have bid lower.

If enough People avoid paying this toll altogether they will have to reverse this opportunistic money-making plan or else let the road, tunnel and toll booth sit there unmaintained and unused indefinitely.

I suspect you will be the one who is wrong.

v300 wrote: »

As is usual with a project like this, they will (mark my words)
rip up the old pre-existing road like the Condell Road to do "essential repairs" for 3 weeks after the tunnel opens, thereby forcing the road users to either trek thru' a crowded Limerick city or fly thru' the tunnel.

Would you prefer they dig up the exisitng routes now?

neo2010 wrote: »

The government should have simply financed the building of the tunnel themselves instead of having to incur tolls on the public to pay back investors. It's not like they didn't have the money.

Isn't borrowing money what has us in the current mess? And why should my government borrow money to pay for the road that I won't be using a whole lot?

D-A-V-E wrote: »

im seeing that there are already massive toll booths and big fancy towers around them, why dont they make them electronic at least? so that queues wont accumulate?

Who says they aren't?

Raiser wrote: »

There is so much taxation revolving around the simple act of buying, owning, running and maintaining a car it is actually amazing that we are not all back on horseback. To then turn around and say that we can't afford to build a road without investment from Britain's Aristocracy or whoever else wants to turn a handy profit at the Irish Taxpayers expense is absolutely incredible.

Much hyperbole?

If you want to pay less tax on motoring, you will need to pay more in council charges, income tax, social insurance and property tax. It swings and roundabouts.

foinse wrote: »

Raiser, the only country i know that has big relatively toll free roads is the USA,

On the contrary, many roads in the USA attract tolls and vehicle registration taxes are often annual. Half the bridges and tolls into Manhattan have tolls.

phog

I hope people will bycott the tunnel because at busy times on the three main bridges I can just zip down to the tunnel, pay my few bob and be off to where I need to get rather than sitting in traffic thinking wouldn't it be great if there was an alternative.

sonyair

I will be using the tunnel for sure as it beats going the whole way in the dock and then out the condell, I won't miss those lights and roundabouts

TestTransmission

Handy map for anyone interested in how this is gonna work

http://www.limericktunnel.com/RouteMapInteractive.html