The idea of Hell

Denerick

I came across something Isaac Asimov once wrote, basically asking that if human being's had decided to outlaw 'cruel and unusual punishment', even amongst the most hideous of criminal offenders, why would an omnipresent and righteous deity create a place of eternal suffering and punishment?

I'm curious about how this is reconciled with the Christian idea of 'hating the sin, loving the sinner' etc. and that 'we can all be saved'

Is there a division here between the Calvinist view that we are predestined for salvation and the Lutheran view that we are saved by faith alone?

Soul Winner

Denerick wrote: »

I came across something Isaac Asimov once wrote, basically asking that if human being's had decided to outlaw 'cruel and unusual punishment', even amongst the most hideous of criminal offenders, why would an omnipresent and righteous deity create a place of eternal suffering and punishment?

I'm curious about how this is reconciled with the Christian idea of 'hating the sin, loving the sinner' etc. and that 'we can all be saved'

Is there a division here between the Calvinist view that we are predestined for salvation and the Lutheran view that we are saved by faith alone?

We have been pre-destined to be saved by grace through faith. The book of Ephesians teaches that we were chosen in Him before the foundations of the world. Jesus said that the destruction that awaits the lost was prepared for Satan and his angels not for lost mankind per se, but that is where unsaved mankind will go as well. God is a God of justice as well as mercy. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. For sin comes death, but God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever shall believe (faith-trust) in Him shall be saved. If Christianity is true then Jesus is the only door open to eternal life. If its false then there is nothing to worry about. Unless another God has created another hell in which case you would have to take your gripe to another forum.

Denerick

Soul Winner wrote: »

We have been pre-destined to be saved by grace through faith. The book of Ephesians teaches that we were chosen in Him before the foundations of the world. Jesus said that the destruction that awaits the lost was prepared for Satan and his angels not for lost mankind per se, but that is where unsaved mankind will go as well. God is a God of justice as well as mercy. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. For sin comes death, but God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever shall believe (faith-trust) in Him shall be saved. If Christianity is true then Jesus is the only door open to eternal life. If its false then there is nothing to worry about. Unless another God has created another hell in which case you would have to take your gripe to another forum.

But you barely mentioned Hell.

What is it?

lmaopml

Denerick wrote: »

I came across something Isaac Asimov once wrote, basically asking that if human being's had decided to outlaw 'cruel and unusual punishment', even amongst the most hideous of criminal offenders, why would an omnipresent and righteous deity create a place of eternal suffering and punishment?

I'm curious about how this is reconciled with the Christian idea of 'hating the sin, loving the sinner' etc. and that 'we can all be saved'

Is there a division here between the Calvinist view that we are predestined for salvation and the Lutheran view that we are saved by faith alone?

Hi Denerick,

I think to be honest the image of hell is something that is misunderstood, even by some Christians, ( thankyou Dante) although in fairness I say that without having 'visited'! THankfully....

As far as Christianity is concerned, God gives us every opportunity, even to our last breath to embrace Christ and embrace salvation and redemption....Make no mistake, we believe 'hell' is real......

It is the seperation from God and our maker that is 'hell'! It's all the missed opportunities and the total rejection of an ultimate goodness, even to our last breath...

God is merciful, that we know...he is 'just' that we know too...and he loves the prodigal son too...that we absolutely know...

At the end of the day Denerick, nobody judges anybody better than God above and that, simple thing, all Christians submit to - he is the one true saviour and the one who we all will meet...

...sounds strange to somebody who never really gave God much thought? Yes! ...sounds like 'faith, hope and charity, but above all 'love' one another'..Yes too..

It's a choice, and we are very very very free to choose...we have 'free will'....and with it our dignity!

Denerick

Ah. I like the idea that hell is simply an absence of God.

Would I be wise in taking Pascal up on his wager? Just to have that safety option, so to speak?

antiskeptic

Denerick wrote: »

I came across something Isaac Asimov once wrote, basically asking that if human being's had decided to outlaw 'cruel and unusual punishment', even amongst the most hideous of criminal offenders, why would an omnipresent and righteous deity create a place of eternal suffering and punishment?

Perhaps the reason that humans decided to outlaw cruel and unusual punishments arose from the fact that they recognise themselves to be sinners/capable of evil too. It's hard to condemn someone utterly when there's exists a fair chance that had you yourself been exposed to the influences that they had been exposed to, then you too might have done that which has earned this condemned man his place in the dock.

God, on the other hand, isn't so hindered by inward evil. And so the punishment can fully reflect the crime.

I'm curious about how this is reconciled with the Christian idea of 'hating the sin, loving the sinner' etc. and that 'we can all be saved'

I'm not sure that "hate the sin, love the sinner" is a biblical idea so I won't defend it here. As to all (potentially) being saved. Well, that is true: all men can potentially be saved - until the point of no return. After which point those who aren't saved enter Hell.

Is there a division here between the Calvinist view that we are predestined for salvation and the Lutheran view that we are saved by faith alone?

I don't think so. The Calvinist view holds that salvation is by faith alone - but it also says that a person is predestined by God to receive that faith apart from anything a person can do to influence Gods decision. Which is another way of saying that salvation is by God's decision alone - with that salvation being rendered effective by God through the medium of faith. This seems to be the Lutheran view too..

Lutherans adhere to divine monergism, the teaching that salvation is by God's act alone, and therefore reject the idea that humans in their fallen state have a free will concerning spiritual matters Lutherans believe that although humans have free will concerning civil righteousness, they cannot work spiritual righteousness without the Holy Spirit, since righteousness in the heart cannot be wrought in the absence of the Holy Spirit. Lutherans believe that the elect are predestined to salvation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutheranism#Predestination

In other words, "by faith alone" can correctly be attached to vatrious views: Calvinism, it's 'opposite' Arminianism and to other viewpoints which involve the will of man in this way and that. The difference would be in what it is that sit's at the very tree top of the decision making process: man or God.

For what it's worth, I'm supposing the few references to predestination as describing that which is predestined to occur to those who are otherwise saved. I'm not supposing that some are predestined to be saved in the first place (and others predestined to be damned) - what a horrible thought besides.

lmaopml

pml! Ach sure, none of us know anybody for real outside of a forum, but awl Pascal sure did have his mathmatics in the fore..What a pile of steaming you know what ( *smiles*)

It's 'faith' that Christians put to the fore, and it's something that 'I' myself ( can't speak for everybody throughout the ages or today ) put to the fore too...along with a LOT of questions, doubts, opinions, ways of the world etc. we are constantly on our journey of faith....right up to the last, except the very few exceptional people!

It's simply faith. and not so simply too....lol....I get that...it's hard sometimes, but I think God is there for everybody just waiting to be discovered and to be acknowledged with whatever the person has inside - so long as it's genuine searching and done with an open and just way of thinking....

Best of luck where ever your very own path and experiences lead you...I wish you well

antiskeptic

Denerick wrote: »

Ah. I like the idea that hell is simply an absence of God.

I wouldn't be so sure. Given that you are made in the image and likeness of God and that that image would be subtracted from you on entry to Hell...

The end result doesn't bear thinking about. You're creative because he is - gone. You're relational because he is - gone. You enjoy because he enjoys - gone. You hoe because he permits room to hope - gone. You love because he is love - gone.

Think of any good in this world or in yourself and then suppose it stripped away.

All that would be left is the ugliness of you, all that is putrid. But in this case, you wouldn't have the luxury of being able to supress the truth about that which is ugly about you.

Soul Winner

Denerick wrote: »

But you barely mentioned Hell.

What is it?

Hades or Sheol both translated Hell in the Old and New Testament is (I believe) a place (either spiritual or physical) within the bowels of the earth. It is a holding place for the dead and is the closest thing we get to purgatory in scripture. This place will give up it's dead to be judged, and will itself be cast into the lake of fire at the end, Revelation 20:14.

How's that?

Denerick

Soul Winner wrote: »

Hades or Sheol both translated Hell in the Old and New Testament is (I believe) a place (either spiritual or physical) within the bowels of the earth. It is a holding place for the dead and is the closest thing we get to purgatory in scripture. This place will give up it's dead to be judged, some to everlasting life and others to everlasting damnation, and will itself be cast into the lake of fire at the end, Revelation 20:14.

How's that?

Pretty bleak Better get my bags packed!

Soul Winner

Denerick wrote: »

Pretty bleak Better get my bags packed!

Sure is, which is why it should be avoided at all cost :eek: