What have you learned since you have posted here?

philologos

I was doing a bit of research, to see how much my views had changed on this forum since I started, so I decided to search through some of the old discussions we all had, and I have seen that a lot of users views have changed a lot from the banter and the discussions that we have had on this forum.

I started on this forum as a Christian that was less than 1 month into believing in 2007. Now I am nearly reaching 3 years into my faith. I am wondering would I have been in the situation I am in currently in respect to my views if I had never posted on this forum. The answer I have come to is I don't think I would.

In the beginning I was much more willing to trust in the tradition of churches than I am now. I was also less critical of practices that take place in the church.

Through this forum, it seems that I have leaned from a traditionalist understanding of the church and of Christianity, to a position of recognising the primacy of Scripture and the central role of Jesus Christ in peoples lives, and the central role of Jesus Christ in salvation. I would now describe myself as much more Evangelical in my position, holding views that grace can be received freely by repentance and the acceptance of Jesus Christ. This isn't a view that I had before.

I also recognised that Christianity as a position is not mutually exclusive to modern science. I've also met numerous people that have influenced me in this direction, and in many of my other positions.

Many of the atheists have also helped to form positions. It is only by getting into discussions and debate that real positions solidify. It was Wicknight that first encouraged me to try a different Bible apart from the Good News Translation, which is highly interpreted in comparison to more literal translations.

I have a lot to thank many of you since I have started in this forum, even if some discussions can get rather difficult.

So what about you, how has being on this forum benefited your Christian walk, or walk away from Christianity if that is the case?

Please keep this thread on topic. I'd love to hear some of your thoughts.

antiskeptic

Jakkass wrote: »

I was doing a bit of research, to see how much my views had changed on this forum since I started, so I decided to search through some of the old discussions we all had, and I have seen that a lot of users views have changed a lot from the banter and the discussions that we have had on this forum.

I've found my experiences on forums (not just this one) to have had significant impact on the views I currently hold. The exposure to the fuller breadth of Christian thinking / objections to Christian thinking outweighs anything that can be found when attending a particular church. A few of the things that have changed for me include:

- a certainty that people cannot be reasoned into the kingdom of God. This has resulted in far less frustration when discussing with unbelievers.

- When I first became a believer I swallowed Creation Science arguments whole. Having seen Creationists try to argue scientifically these last 5 years or so I now conclude Creation Science a bit of an oxymoron. That said, I'm a creationist - I see no particular reason to have to reconcile scientific findings with the Bible. Science is great - it's not necessarily Truth however.

- The challenges presented by unbelievers have caused me to do more thinking and reading than I perhaps otherwise would have. The myriad of objections encountered have resulted in a honing of my views (to my own satisfaction if not the objectors). I'm a mechanical engineer and so seek to build a mechanical style framework of understanding when it comes to Gods plan and purpose. I'm more content now that things will work when I turn the handle than I was before having that mechanism challenged by discussion forum.

- When I started out I thought I was a Calvinist but realised man's choice must have had something to do with it. But Arminianism didn't seem to fit the bill. I'm more comfortable now with a means whereby man is saved by Gods grace alone, yet mans will is the ultimate decider of mans eternal destination.

- Other than that, I've found the experience on forums (involving unbelievers) to be a jaw dropping testimony to the accuracy of this supposed "fable written by a band of wandering tribemen". The principles of sinful mans objection and rebellion contained in the Bible find their expression today just as it says on the tin

homer911

Where do I start..?

Soul Winner

Jakkass wrote: »

I was doing a bit of research, to see how much my views had changed on this forum since I started, so I decided to search through some of the old discussions we all had, and I have seen that a lot of users views have changed a lot from the banter and the discussions that we have had on this forum.

I started on this forum as a Christian that was less than 1 month into believing in 2007. Now I am nearly reaching 3 years into my faith. I am wondering would I have been in the situation I am in currently in respect to my views if I had never posted on this forum. The answer I have come to is I don't think I would.

In the beginning I was much more willing to trust in the tradition of churches than I am now. I was also less critical of practices that take place in the church.

Through this forum, it seems that I have leaned from a traditionalist understanding of the church and of Christianity, to a position of recognising the primacy of Scripture and the central role of Jesus Christ in peoples lives, and the central role of Jesus Christ in salvation. I would now describe myself as much more Evangelical in my position, holding views that grace can be received freely by repentance and the acceptance of Jesus Christ. This isn't a view that I had before.

I also recognised that Christianity as a position is not mutually exclusive to modern science. I've also met numerous people that have influenced me in this direction, and in many of my other positions.

Many of the atheists have also helped to form positions. It is only by getting into discussions and debate that real positions solidify. It was Wicknight that first encouraged me to try a different Bible apart from the Good News Translation, which is highly interpreted in comparison to more literal translations.

I have a lot to thank many of you since I have started in this forum, even if some discussions can get rather difficult.

So what about you, how has being on this forum benefited your Christian walk, or walk away from Christianity if that is the case?

Please keep this thread on topic. I'd love to hear some of your thoughts.

I thought I knew everything before coming on Boards but now I am totally convinced that I do Kidding!!!

I think the most beneficial aspect of posting on Boards has come from the atheists and agnostic's questions. They think of questions I'd never think of (and I can think of plenty), but I always find that with enough research and digging answers can be found for most of them. And once you set out to find the answers you usually come back with a richer and more satisfying knowledge of the subject matter than you had prior to hearing the questions. But some of the answers given by the regular posters usually clears things up without doing any digging and for that I'm grateful.

I think it is really important for anyone with hang ups for those people to express those hang ups instead of keeping them inside, and that includes Christians, the only way to resolve those hang ups is to get them out there. Ask the question. If you are in doubt about something then just say it. You don't even have to worry about being identified, Boards also affords great anonymity to the shyer posters amongst us.

I've learned a great deal since joining Boards and have amassed a great repository of bookmarks to great web-sites and learning centers given by posters on Boards on both sides of the fence. I look forward to many more years of posting and reading and learning. That's what it's all about, nobody knows everything, we can all learn a great deal from each other and should always be as prepared to learn as we are to teach.

Denerick

I've only used this forum for like one day, but it seems interesting. I certainly disagree with pretty much everyone about pretty much everything, but its always thought provoking.

lmaopml

Denerick wrote: »

I've only used this forum for like one day, but it seems interesting. I certainly disagree with pretty much everyone about pretty much everything, but its always thought provoking.

PML...

That's what I use the Atheist and Agnostic forum for...

...to provoke deeper understanding and thoughfulness!

I love those guys even though I got my first thread closed cause it got too heated...with a little help from myself *says sorry* and the genuine challenges amid the noise...much like every forum I guess

Ahh the internet.. it's great mostly...lol..

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Fanny Cradock

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And it's a pleasure to have you aboard.

postcynical

Jakkass wrote: »

So what about you, how has being on this forum benefited your Christian walk, or walk away from Christianity if that is the case?

Please keep this thread on topic. I'd love to hear some of your thoughts.

Must confess that this forum provides great food for thought. Let's hope this will inspire action too when the time is right!

I'm amazed how close the different believers are on so many issues. It's quite an amazing occurence of group-think.

For me the most amazing thing I've learned from posters here is the idea of 'one church' meaning a church of all believers rather than a single organisation. While I still believe that Christian unity is inevitable, this unity may not be my pre-conceived idea of what unity involves. Indeed, maybe Christian unity is already a reality in some sense?

I've also learned that the official Catholic position on 'sola fide' is not so far from the Lutheran one.

I think I had misunderstood the nature of a personal relationship with Christ as pronounced by evangelicals. I was under the impression that they were all hearing voices in their heads and reinterpreting the scriptures themselves without any external authority. Now I see it's simply our natural dialogue with God, which is fundamental to all Christians, and can be obscured by the rich traditions of my denomination (Roman Catholic).

I have learned that many of our Catholic practices and traditions are difficult to explain to others, and might have become part of a folk memory rather than a living and vibrant witness of Christ and prayer in this world. I think our Protestant brothers and sisters can help us to renew our Church and provide a very interesting foil where we can debate to the glory of God.

Finally I've learned a lot from the other Catholic posters here, and a major and joyous revelation for me was the explanation of the Orthodox understanding of the Eucharist.

And there are plenty of laughs to be had too on the way. This forum has one of the weirdest senses of humour on the whole internet:)

BrianCalgary

I have learned to be a bit more tolerant as I have learned that I really don't know it nor will I ever.

It is great to see Christianity through the lens of others and to understand that on issues other than the fundementals of the Apostles Creed are fun to discuss, but not key to salvation, and at the same time one gets coser to God.

I feel that my iron has been sharpened by the iron of others.

nozzferrahhtoo

The one answer I always give to this, although there are many, is that my experience on this and other forums has taught me to stop trotting out the usual atheist nonsense motto of “Faith is belief without evidence”.

Not only have I discovered this is not true in some ways, but that it is grossly insulting to people who think they have loads of evidence. The most dangerous thing you can do in ANY conversation is say something that kills the conversation and this catchphrase is the quickest single way to stop the other party listening to you and kill any hope of communication.

Instead I have changed my motto to “Faith is the willingness to assume to be true, that which you are trying to show is true”, a form of confirmation bias if you will, practised by everyone from Christians to the people who think that the number 23 is behind every event that occurs on the planet. In other words they have a LOT of evidence, but it is all flawed because it is only applicable if you are assuming what you are proving is already true.

This epiphany has improved my conversations with Theists and people such as Memoids of the 23ist variety immeasurably and I have enjoyed long productive conversations as a result of it. For example I have literally converted people away from 23ism not by telling them they are wrong, or by telling them they have no evidence, but by showing them what they are doing works for every other number too. Everything they thought proved the number 23 was behind everything works exactly and perfectly as well if you do it for, say, 42.

If I could make one change in my life it would be to hammer this realisation home to every Atheist on the planet so they could stop committing this error and making a fool of themselves. Then we could all wait together for someone to get around to providing some evidence for this deity that does not fit into this category, something that has not occurred in 20 years of me asking. I would estimate honestly that 97% of everything I have ever been offered as evidence falls under this error.

Soul Winner

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

The one answer I always give to this, although there are many, is that my experience on this and other forums has taught me to stop trotting out the usual atheist nonsense motto of “Faith is belief without evidence”.

Not only have I discovered this is not true in some ways, but that it is grossly insulting to people who think they have loads of evidence. The most dangerous thing you can do in ANY conversation is say something that kills the conversation and this catchphrase is the quickest single way to stop the other party listening to you and kill any hope of communication.

Instead I have changed my motto to “Faith is the willingness to assume to be true, that which you are trying to show is true”, a form of confirmation bias if you will, practised by everyone from Christians to the people who think that the number 23 is behind every event that occurs on the planet. In other words they have a LOT of evidence, but it is all flawed because it is only applicable if you are assuming what you are proving is already true.

This epiphany has improved my conversations with Theists and people such as Memoids of the 23ist variety immeasurably and I have enjoyed long productive conversations as a result of it. For example I have literally converted people away from 23ism not by telling them they are wrong, or by telling them they have no evidence, but by showing them what they are doing works for every other number too. Everything they thought proved the number 23 was behind everything works exactly and perfectly as well if you do it for, say, 42.

If I could make one change in my life it would be to hammer this realisation home to every Atheist on the planet so they could stop committing this error and making a fool of themselves. Then we could all wait together for someone to get around to providing some evidence for this deity that does not fit into this category, something that has not occurred in 20 years of me asking. I would estimate honestly that 97% of everything I have ever been offered as evidence falls under this error.

What would satisfy you as good evidence though? For me if you start with Jesus and work out from Him then you won't get better evidence than that for a definition of God.

Facts about Jesus:

Jesus thought He was perfect, thought He knew it all, had no sense of moral inadequacy, He forgave other people their sins, He was crucified by Roman authority through the instigation of Jewish leaders, He was presumed dead, He was preached Raised, alive and vital, and that He ascended into heaven. None of this proves anything of course but with enough scrutiny of the text that we have available to us, and secular historical evidence we can be quite sure that the above claims were actually claimed. Then we have the persecution and horrific deaths suffered by those who preached this message when they had every predisposition to the contrary available to them to renege, to turn around and say that this story can be explained by natural means is I feel is very disingenuous on the part of the objector.

It boggles the mind that these men who claimed to be speaking on behalf of a truthful God would perpetuate a lie (because that is all that it is if it is not true) like this when all the time they knew that all that awaited for them in this life and in the next was torture and torment. If a natural explanation cannot explain why all this happened then the Christian is quite rational to accept the original explanation given by the apostles themselves. That He actually did raise from the grave as reported and did appear to His followers for weeks afterwards alive and vital and that He did ascend into heaven with the promise to return one day to set this world right.

Until you can give a valid natural explanation that explains all these facts then Christianity will always hold down its own patch on this earth. I'm not claiming that what I've just said is all true (but I believe it is), I'm just making the point that in order to put the claims of Christianity away as you did with 23ism then yo must do like you did with 23ism and present a valid argument that explains Christianity away naturally and why the disciples of Jesus came to genuinely believe that He was the Son of God and that He rose from the dead.

To the Mods: By all means move this to the Apologetics thread if you feel it needs moving...

philologos

Soul Winner: We've had a huge debate on what evidence is on the Bible, Creationism, and Prophesy thread and we aren't even that much closer.

nozzferrahhtoo: Did you ever think it could be because we do have evidence rather than just thinking we do.

Let's not go too far off topic here. Please respect the OP.

nozzferrahhtoo

Yes I do not want to go off topic so sorry Soulwinner I can not really reply to your questions. However suffice to say I do not presume to tell people what their evidence should be. If I did then I would be risking missing the real evidence because it does not fit my expectations and that is DANGEROUS. I consider ALL evidence put before me, I really do. I consider it in isolation on its own merits.

So I cant say what evidence SHOULD be, I can only say what evidence CAN NOT be and I gave one example of that.

Jakkas: Since you are the OP I will answer your question briefly but again I do not want to go off topic. If you really do have the evidence then I am agog to hear it. If you think you have it then show it to me sometime. I literally have never seen any. However I have often, more often than I have euros in the bank, heard people say “Oh we have eveidence but….” Followed by some reason or other why they will not present it.

However to go back on topic, I think what I learned here is very important do you not agree? Atheists who go around saying “Faith if believe with no evidence” are both wrong and offensive and it is a totally unproductive thing to say. I used to tout it myself and I have been put in my place more than a few times on it. It is possibly the single most important thing I have learned on forums such as this. I am hoping that at Atheist Ireland we start to given lectures to each other on different topics and this is the topic I would love to give them a lecture on. It is an invaluable piece of learning and I now would not be without it.

nozzferrahhtoo

Another thing I have learned from being on here, to force this back on topic, is to read the bible. There are too many atheists out there who think because the bible is “lies” that it is not worth reading or is a load of crap.

I find it to be an INVALUABLE book. The KJV for example is a beautifully written book, a wonderful example of written prose. It is also a glimpse into our ancestors, their mindsets and our history as religions such as these were our first attempts at things like Philosophy and Science and Agriculture and even to explain things like disease etc.

It also shows the history of the time and the morality people went by.

On top of all that much of our literature today such as Milton and Shakespeare will go over the heads of most people if they do not know the biblical grounding, stories and language they draw from. As wonderful as this literature is, it becomes more wonderful again with a biblical background.

So yes, a second thing I have learned from being on forums such as these is that the bible can not be dismissed merely because it is Fiction. I recommend it to everyone and in fact Atheist Ireland are planning a “read the bible” campaign which I can not wait to support whole heartidly.

Of course I have a second motive for this but it does not overlap, void or damage the motives above. I have in my lifetime turned a number of people away from religion. Not a large number, I could count t hem on my fingers and toes. But literally 100% of them I did so not by science, arguments, evidence or reason… but quite literally by making them read the book they claim they believe in. None of them actually had, and they came out of the experience entirely changed people.

neuro-praxis

I've learned that most people are idiots. :pac:

Just kidding. I knew that already.

Excelsior

neuro is only so wise cos is married to me.

i have learned that mostly people need to be physically present to each other to properly respect a differing opinion

postcynical

neuro-praxis wrote: »

I've learned that most people are idiots. :pac:

Just kidding. I knew that already.

you sure you're not an atheist?;)

neuro-praxis

Excelsior wrote: »

neuro is only so wise cos is married to me.

I taught you everything you know, funboy. If it wasn't for me, you'd be a capitalistic heathen instead of the impoverished Jesuser you are now. Plus, stop revealing my gender round here. I like being assumed to be a man. And occasionally an atheist.

mcmoustache

I don't post here much but I do lurk quite a bit. If I've learned anything from this forum, it's that Christians are able to have a fairly reasoned debate with people of a different or of no faith. The tone of the arguments in here from all sides is generally quite respectful. Surprising when you consider how hot a topic religion can be.

philologos

Excelsior wrote: »

i have learned that mostly people need to be physically present to each other to properly respect a differing opinion

^ Good point. Something I am beginning to accept myself, albeit slightly reluctantly :pac:

Communicating faith over the Internet is lacking without authentically trying to live as Jesus did. Something I struggle with every day of the week!

I think due to the nature of the religion / irreligion debate, far too much emphasis is placed on the intellectual role of faith rather than the role of faith actively in peoples lives.

This is also a good thing about this forum, it allows for Christians to share with each other about how they do different things in their lives, to pray for eachother (Prayer request thread), and to celebrate together during the good points in peoples lives (Praise the Lord thread). The recognition that we are all in this life together, and that we are all trying to serve a God beyond our highest perception.

Fanny Cradock

neuro-praxis wrote: »

I taught you everything you know, funboy. If it wasn't for me, you'd be a capitalistic heathen instead of the impoverished Jesuser you are now. Plus, stop revealing my gender round here. I like being assumed to be a man. And occasionally an atheist.

Fight! Fight! Fight!

Anyway, I, too, enjoy the mystery that surrounds my gender. Possibly this is due to some deep-seated childhood trauma that I've since burried.