Luas Ticket Checkers

MiniD

Earlier today three Luas ticket checkers were standing on a platform as the tram reached the stop. They didn't board the tram, but instead approached passengers who got off and asked them for their ticket. Is this allowed?

I didn't see the outcome as the tram pulled away, but a gentleman was refusing to show his ticket. I understand there is a possibility he didn't have one, but were they right to request it on a public footpath?

I would think once you leave the tram you are no longer required to produce anything for Veolia and I would go further to say it would be harassment to demand something from a pedestrian on the footpath. There were 3 of these guys in orange jackets blocking this guy from walking up the street.

Is this just laziness from the workers or a new policy from Luas? Obviously I'd be completely against fare evasion and would support tickets being checked, but not in this manner.

stop

iirc, the Luas staff can ask for a ticket on a tram or one of their platforms, but cannot detain you (unlike Dublin Bus staff) until you produce a ticket or give over your details. Once you walk off the platform it's game over.
Of course it's much much easier to confront people on the tram, where there is nowhere to go

Victor

The RPA own the platform.

Terrontress

Given that the ticket machines are on the platform, then there is no issue with being on the platform without a ticket, unlike the trains, where a ticket must be bought before you go through the gate. This to me suggests that a person cannot have their ticket checked while on the Luas platform.

MiniD

Victor wrote: »

The RPA own the platform.

What about places like Abbey Street and Jervis where the platform is actually the footpath?

If that is the case, then are the RPA responsible if someone trips or is attacked while walking by a Luas platform which is shared with a street? And why can't they remove beggers and drunks from the stop if it's a private area?

Chris_533976

Common sense must prevail. If you've just come off the tram then you should still have your ticket.

howiya

MiniD wrote: »

What about places like Abbey Street and Jervis where the platform is actually the footpath?

If that is the case, then are the RPA responsible if someone trips or is attacked while walking by a Luas platform which is shared with a street? And why can't they remove beggers and drunks from the stop if it's a private area?

If the RPA own these platforms the can they please do something about the anti social behaviour in these areas.

Personally I don't like the discriminatory nature in which the Veolia staff issue fines. I have often seen them usher a certain group of non nationals off the tram for not having a ticket and then just let them walk away.

dermot_sheehan

Since 2005 Ticket Checkers have had the power of arrest:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0031/sec0134.html#sec134

the bye law relates to the use of the railway without a ticket, if they've seen you on the tram they know you've used it.

howiya

gabhain7 wrote: »

Since 2005 Ticket Checkers have had the power of arrest:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0031/sec0134.html#sec134

the bye law relates to the use of the railway without a ticket, if they've seen you on the tram they know you've used it.

Clearly they don't use such powers

MiniD

gabhain7 wrote: »

the bye law relates to the use of the railway without a ticket, if they've seen you on the tram they know you've used it.

I can understand that, but my question is more to do with where they approach you. Asking a passenger for a ticket while on board a tram is fine, but to stop someone on a public footpath is different. There is no obligation to hold onto your ticket once you leave the tram, so to ask someone for their ticket after their journey seems unfair.

Terrontress

gabhain7 wrote: »

Since 2005 Ticket Checkers have had the power of arrest:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0031/sec0134.html#sec134

the bye law relates to the use of the railway without a ticket, if they've seen you on the tram they know you've used it.

they know you have used it but do not know you have done so without a ticket. If an inspector sees you leave the tram and follows you down the road, they know you have left the tram. Can they still make an inspection and issue a fine.

The bottom line is that to be on the tram with no ticket is a contravention of the bye-laws. To be on the platform without a ticket is not, even if you have a large sign stating you have been on the tram never mind being seen getting off it.

AlekSmart

MiniD

Earlier today three Luas ticket checkers were standing on a platform as the tram reached the stop. They didn't board the tram, but instead approached passengers who got off and asked them for their ticket. Is this allowed?

I didn't see the outcome as the tram pulled away, but a gentleman was refusing to show his ticket. I understand there is a possibility he didn't have one, but were they right to request it on a public footpath?

It`s notable of late that Veolia have ratcheted-up their Revenue Protection operation.

Perhaps this is as a result of the general collapse in Public Transport usership or perhaps it`is an indication that the company finally realises it has a problem which should never have been allowed to reach such levels on a NEW system.

I have in the past week had direct experience for the first time EVER of a Plain Clothes Ticket Check on my pre-Christmas Red Line journey into the City Centre.

It was very professional and courteously conducted AND was effective.

I,being used to the standard Hi-Viz operatives never spotted the checker until he stood directly beside me.

Just prior to his arrival,my fellow passenger sitting beside me had abruptly jumped from his seat with an exclaimation of "Fcukknig Billockx" and leapt through the open door at Bluebell,leaving behind a half drunk can of Budwieser and two full ones still in the brown paper bag.

It was while I was still looking at the abandoned gargle that the Checker arrived and allowed me to put 2 + " together.

AFAIAC this effect alone justifies the new tactic and hopefully if pursued will make the Red Line and Luas generally a somewhat more attractive system for ALL users,not just those looking to freeload and strew their garbage around the place.

As for MiniD`s observed event,some indication of the Location might be of assistance as would a thorough perusal of the relevant Bye-Laws as ALL Public Operators are caught in the headlights of being sued for "Wrongful Imprisonment" or false arrest a threat which the "usual suspects" are only to well able to use when confronted by any form of officialdom.

Given that Veolia are now using Plain Clothes checking staff perhaps the targeting of the individual was not as random as might appear from an initial glimpse.

There is no obligation to hold onto your ticket once you leave the tram, so to ask someone for their ticket after their journey seems unfair.

There may well be an obligation to retain your ticket when on RPA property,ie:the luas platform.
I`m fairly certain that the Veolia Staff are well versed in where and where not to check tickets,but errors can and do occur.

Granted it may "seem" unfair but on balance I,for one,am just glad that somebody appears to have woken up to the race-to-the-bottom which was in full-flight up until recently on Luas services.

Now if only we can get Dublin Bus to wake-up and smell the coffee too !

MiniD

AlekSmart wrote: »

There may well be an obligation to retain your ticket when on RPA property,ie:the luas platform.

If this is the case, then it should be made clear when purchasing your ticket, and it should be also very clear where is RPA property.

The incident I witnessed was on Chancery Street after people got off the tram. There is nothing here to state which part, if any, is RPA property. It's a public footpath and has been for years.

Alek, I completely agree with your views on fare evasion. I find the Luas ticket checkers to be very professional and polite. Their job is not pleasant, especially on the red line. As someone who is paying for an annual ticket (which increased by 15% last year) I fully support any new initiatives to stop fare evasion. I just find something wrong with Veolia stopping people on the street after they leave the tram to continue their journey.

AlekSmart

As someone who is paying for an annual ticket (which increased by 15% last year) I fully support any new initiatives to stop fare evasion. I just find something wrong with Veolia stopping people on the street after they leave the tram to continue their journey.

I would share your distaste at this new departure,however such has been the extent of the slide into disregard which we witnessed that any attempt to redress the balance will appear to be OTT.

FWIW I suspect the financial meltdown is now forcing PT Operators to look to Revenue Protection with somewhat more vigour than heretofore.

PS I hope MindD that you are able to do a Taxsaver on your annual ticket ??

dowlingm

AlekSmart wrote: »

my fellow passenger sitting beside me had abruptly jumped from his seat with an exclaimation of "Fcukknig Billockx" and leapt through the open door at Bluebell,leaving behind a half drunk can of Budwieser and two full ones still in the brown paper bag.

So what happened to the gargle

kravmaga

MiniD wrote: »

If this is the case, then it should be made clear when purchasing your ticket, and it should be also very clear where is RPA property.

The incident I witnessed was on Chancery Street after people got off the tram. There is nothing here to state which part, if any, is RPA property. It's a public footpath and has been for years.

Alek, I completely agree with your views on fare evasion. I find the Luas ticket checkers to be very professional and polite. Their job is not pleasant, especially on the red line. As someone who is paying for an annual ticket (which increased by 15% last year) I fully support any new initiatives to stop fare evasion. I just find something wrong with Veolia stopping people on the street after they leave the tram to continue their journey.

Why dont you contact Veolia directly on this matter?

AlekSmart

Dowlinggm posed the not unreasonable question....

So what happened to the gargle

I knew someone would ask so I decided to keep the best bit till last...I kept the two cans,along with the half full/empty one and......as I was gettin off at Abbey Street...I......dropped the lot....in the Bin !!

Just my own little addition to my travelling companions woe`s that night...and yes.....I DO have a pair of finger-less gloves...Bah Fckkuin Humbug Sir !!!

BraziliaNZ

You don't get a ticket if you're a scumbag, junkie, traveller, or Roma Gypsy. They don't seem to have to pay.
Only people who appear respectable and can speak proper English seem to be given fines from what I can see. All my experience comes from the Red Line of course, which is full of total scumbags.
Anyway - I work in the Four Courts and wanted to go to Jervis today at lunch. Normally I walk down but the dire weather outside forced me to take the Luas. So it was 1.60 each way.
Isn't that awfully steep? There should be a fare of 1 euro or less for the central stops. It's ridiculous to charge 3.20 for going one stop each way.

AlekSmart

Anyway - I work in the Four Courts and wanted to go to Jervis today at lunch. Normally I walk down but the dire weather outside forced me to take the Luas. So it was 1.60 each way.
Isn't that awfully steep? There should be a fare of 1 euro or less for the central stops. It's ridiculous to charge 3.20 for going one stop each way.

Absolutely BraziliaNZ,the entire fiasco which is Integrated Ticketing in Dublin largely revolves around the vastly differeing Fares reigeme which exist on the different modes of Public Transport.

Step 1,Phase A of the Department of Transport`s master plan for Dublins Integrated Ticketing SHOULD have been a common tarriff for ALL modes within,for example the old Dublin Bus Cityzone.

This of itself would have made the entire excercise so much more simple to impliment....but no..thats not the Irish way...and certainly not the Irish Administrative way.

Instead we have a different tarriff for each of the CIE companies.
A different tarriff for Luas
A different tarriff for the few private bus operators,coupled with a vague promise from the Integrated Ticketing Implimentation Group to merge ALL of the difgfering systems at some suitably vague future date....It`s little wonder that Dublin Bus had to pre-empt this oul nonsense and go it alone with it`s Smart Card range as the Department exhibited little sign of actually producing a scrap of card at all,let alone one witha CHIP embeded in it...smart or otherwise !!

It`s now high-time for the Dept of Transport to get it`s collective finger out and REDUCE the price of prepaid multi-mode tickets as a bare minimum,before moving on to introducing a single tarriff zone in the City.

Black Magic ???

paddy cork

3 euro for all day ticket in milan,bus ,tram ,metro and airport bus!

AlekSmart

3 euro for all day ticket in milan,bus ,tram ,metro and airport bus!

But paddy cork,Milan is in Italy a part of mainland Europe which embraced the concept of the Economic Community to a far greater extent than Ireland.......we just took their money and pissed it up agin the wall.

One of the reasons we don`t have such a ticket is having already spent €30+Million on an Integrated Ticketing Implimentation Group we don`t have enough money or application left to actually print such a thing.....

However,we did have gratitude expressed on our behalf by the Minister for Transport to the retiring Secretary General of the Dept of Transport for all her great work and to compensate her for her "loss of sleep" over the Integrated Ticketing project...oh and a bit of an oul lump plus a nice pension...just in case !

Bee

MiniD wrote: »

Earlier today three Luas ticket checkers were standing on a platform as the tram reached the stop. They didn't board the tram, but instead approached passengers who got off and asked them for their ticket. Is this allowed?

I didn't see the outcome as the tram pulled away, but a gentleman was refusing to show his ticket. I understand there is a possibility he didn't have one, but were they right to request it on a public footpath?

I would think once you leave the tram you are no longer required to produce anything for Veolia and I would go further to say it would be harassment to demand something from a pedestrian on the footpath. There were 3 of these guys in orange jackets blocking this guy from walking up the street.

Is this just laziness from the workers or a new policy from Luas? Obviously I'd be completely against fare evasion and would support tickets being checked, but not in this manner.

For legal reasons that I will not go through here anyone may ask you if you have a ticket but they have zippo authority to do anything at all once you are on the platform and it does not matter who or what entity owns the platform.

In fact the Luas folk are treading on very dangerous legal grounds (so to speak!) by even asking you anything at all on the platform

Cookie_Monster

Bee wrote: »

For legal reasons that I will not go through here anyone may ask you if you have a ticket but they have zippo authority to do anything at all once you are on the platform and it does not matter who or what entity owns the platform.

In fact the Luas folk are treading on very dangerous legal grounds (so to speak!) by even asking you anything at all on the platform

Victor has already stated that the PRA own the platform. If you are going to come on and give the above statement you should at least give reason to back it up or counter the various assumption on here already.

how can anyone ask you for a ticket, I could hardly start going up to random people on the Luas or platforms asking to see tickets?

Sleipnir

gabhain7 wrote: »

Since 2005 Ticket Checkers have had the power of arrest:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2005/en/act/pub/0031/sec0134.html#sec134

the bye law relates to the use of the railway without a ticket, if they've seen you on the tram they know you've used it.

That's just a citizen's arrest. They don't have the power to physically prevent you from leaving as the Gardai would.

Citizen's arrests happen very rarely in this country as you have to meet several difficult criteria in order to do it e.g. little or no chance of a Garda being able to arrive on-scene to arrest a suspect. Try proving that in court where you're accused of assault.

Any person can arrest someone who they have reasonable cause is in the act of committing or has committed an "arrestable" offence, that is one punishable by more than 5 years in prison. The arrest can only be effected if the arrestor has reasonable cause that the person will attempt to avoid apprehension by Gardaí and the arrestor delivers the person to Garda custody as soon as is practicable

That's from wikipedia which ain't a great source but I'm too knackered to trawl through the statute book.

dermot_sheehan

I suggest you read the section I quoted which isn't section 4 of the Criminal Law Act which deals with citizens arrests but rather an amendment to the transport (light railway) act which gives authorised officers the specific power of arrest for breach of the bye laws.

RPUinspector

AlekSmart wrote: »

MiniD

It`s notable of late that Veolia have ratcheted-up their Revenue Protection operation.

Perhaps this is as a result of the general collapse in Public Transport usership or perhaps it`is an indication that the company finally realises it has a problem which should never have been allowed to reach such levels on a NEW system.

I have in the past week had direct experience for the first time EVER of a Plain Clothes Ticket Check on my pre-Christmas Red Line journey into the City Centre.

It was very professional and courteously conducted AND was effective.

I,being used to the standard Hi-Viz operatives never spotted the checker until he stood directly beside me.

Just prior to his arrival,my fellow passenger sitting beside me had abruptly jumped from his seat with an exclaimation of "Fcukknig Billockx" and leapt through the open door at Bluebell,leaving behind a half drunk can of Budwieser and two full ones still in the brown paper bag.

It was while I was still looking at the abandoned gargle that the Checker arrived and allowed me to put 2 + " together.

AFAIAC this effect alone justifies the new tactic and hopefully if pursued will make the Red Line and Luas generally a somewhat more attractive system for ALL users,not just those looking to freeload and strew their garbage around the place.


Given that Veolia are now using Plain Clothes checking staff perhaps the targeting of the individual was not as random as might appear from an initial glimpse.

just wondering what kind of ID did the inspectors carry, was it a badge in a wallet or something around their necks, also were they wearing a suit, sports jacket or anything that resembled a uniform ?

Sleipnir

gabhain7 wrote: »

I suggest you read the section I quoted which isn't section 4 of the Criminal Law Act which deals with citizens arrests but rather an amendment to the transport (light railway) act which gives authorised officers the specific power of arrest for breach of the bye laws.

I understand what I'm reading.
So, you're telling me that Luas ticket inspectors have the same powers to arrest as a member of the Gardai?

Any Citizen can arrest any other citizen in this country so effectively the bye-law you are quoting is just re-stating that fact.

markpb

Sleipnir wrote: »

Any Citizen can arrest any other citizen in this country so effectively the bye-law you are quoting is just re-stating that fact.

Citizens arrests can only be performed if the crime is punishable by more than 5 years in prison. The TRI 2001 Act allows RPA agents to arrest people for any breach of that act, even though the penalties are lower, i.e. citizens could not arrest for beaches of the act.

dermot_sheehan

Any citizen may arrest for an arrestable offence (i.e. 5 years or more).

The bye laws do not carry a penalty of five years or more in prison,

so absent a specific power of arrest, they are summons only offences.

the amendment allows authorised officers and gardai to arrest for breach of the byelaws,


make sense?

dingding

If you dumped / left your ticket on the Bus / Luas as you got off, as I do most times on a Bus, you would not have it in posession on the platform.

do they make it clear that you are expected to have a ticket after you have alighted the tram.

Absurdum

I'm not a regular public transport user but in the olden days when I used Dublin Bus I used to throw my ticket into the small bins provided on the bus as I was getting off - thus rendering me ticketless by the time I was physically stepping off the bus. I don't use the Luas but I would probably do the same if the ticket was no longer of use. Interesting to learn about this!

c4cat

MiniD wrote: »

Earlier today three Luas ticket checkers were standing on a platform as the tram reached the stop. They didn't board the tram, but instead approached passengers who got off and asked them for their ticket. Is this allowed?

I didn't see the outcome as the tram pulled away, but a gentleman was refusing to show his ticket. I understand there is a possibility he didn't have one, but were they right to request it on a public footpath?

I would think once you leave the tram you are no longer required to produce anything for Veolia and I would go further to say it would be harassment to demand something from a pedestrian on the footpath. There were 3 of these guys in orange jackets blocking this guy from walking up the street.

Is this just laziness from the workers or a new policy from Luas? Obviously I'd be completely against fare evasion and would support tickets being checked, but not in this manner.

So I left my ticket on the seat as I left since I had no further use for it, whats the checker going to do about that?

evercloserunion

I've had a similar situation where the door opened but two inspectors were standing right there blocking my exit, and they asked me for a ticket. Which I didn't have. Pooh.

It's a sneaky tactic but understandable because otherwise it's so easy to just hop on without a ticket and get off when you see inspectors waiting at the platform. Which is what I used to do until this happened, now I always get a ticket.

AlekSmart

just wondering what kind of ID did the inspectors carry, was it a badge in a wallet or something around their necks, also were they wearing a suit, sports jacket or anything that resembled a uniform ?

RPUinspector,the dude concerned was wearing winter plumage casual clothes with a wooly hat as well.
He was using a hand-held smart-card reader and also recording the details onto a Voice Dictafone....(That WAS a new one to experience)

His ID,which I did NOT check too closely was around his neck and it may well have been RPA rather than Veolia.

Whichever entity it was,his appearance had a rapid effect on at least one freeloader and THAT is what should be the focus of this type of Inspection !!!

Ste.phen

Absurdum wrote: »

I'm not a regular public transport user but in the olden days when I used Dublin Bus I used to throw my ticket into the small bins provided on the bus as I was getting off - thus rendering me ticketless by the time I was physically stepping off the bus. I don't use the Luas but I would probably do the same if the ticket was no longer of use. Interesting to learn about this!

The difference is that the Luas has no such bins, the bins are out on the platform after the point where the ticket inspectors might ask for it

RPUinspector

AlekSmart wrote: »

RPUinspector,the dude concerned was wearing winter plumage casual clothes with a wooly hat as well.
He was using a hand-held smart-card reader and also recording the details onto a Voice Dictafone....(That WAS a new one to experience)

His ID,which I did NOT check too closely was around his neck and it may well have been RPA rather than Veolia.

Whichever entity it was,his appearance had a rapid effect on at least one freeloader and THAT is what should be the focus of this type of Inspection !!!

is there a risk this chap is impersonating a checker and pocketing fines or excess fares !!!, a professional transport company would alert their customers that officials work both in and out of uniform

angel01

AlekSmart wrote: »

RPUinspector,the dude concerned was wearing winter plumage casual clothes with a wooly hat as well.
He was using a hand-held smart-card reader and also recording the details onto a Voice Dictafone....(That WAS a new one to experience)

His ID,which I did NOT check too closely was around his neck and it may well have been RPA rather than Veolia.

Whichever entity it was,his appearance had a rapid effect on at least one freeloader and THAT is what should be the focus of this type of Inspection !!!

I have seen that before, they are working for the RPA. I think they are checking where people are going to and where they got on from. They are not really checking tickets.

They don't fine people or do anything with the tickets.

RPUinspector

Thanks for that, it's strange they would do that without letting people know, they could get any kind of reaction from the wrong type of indivual,

oaps / disabled people with free travel passes get on and off without any other type of ticket, so there would be no way of figuring out their trip details without asking them, plain clothes strangers asking where they are going / coming from is dodgy to say the least