Ideas on trying to do up a house with no insulation whatsoever

dory

Hello,

I'm home for the holidays and would really like to help out my parents who live in a big, freezing house.

First off, there is no wallpaper/plastering at all. All the walls are brick/wood. This seems to work for some people but I feel it's making things colder here. There is double glazing on a hand full of upstairs windows, and these rooms are warmer. I know there's a pricing forum, maybe I should have posted there, but anyone know how much double glazing is these days?

Lastly, is there anything else I could do? Maybe check the attic to see if that has any insulation, I doubt that is does. The only info I have is what I learned in Home Ec in school. Right now they have the central heating on for over 12 hours a day, and two fires lighting (which smokes up a house full of asthmatics!). Almost every room also has its own gas or electric fire.

I just want to try and bring down their heating bill. They're paying a bomb, and still living in a freezing house. I don't mind paying a few grand as I feel they'll save that in heating bills.

Next I want to get an interior designer to do this place up a bit. Anyone have any suggestions for any of this I'd be very grateful.
Thanks

EDIT: Just realised if any preserving energy person read this they would lock up my parents. The ironic thing is they're mad into recycling! Mother came after me today for putting toast in the compost heap. I feel a TV show would love my parent's house. Now to convince them to go on TV...

cork1

would they go for a plaster finish on the walls?? if so then you could stick insulated slabs to the exterior walls. you could also pump the cavit in the walls with insulation. pump 12" of insulation between the ceiling joists in the attic and seal the trapdoor.

dory

Ooo sounds interesting. I'll look into that, but I don't think they'll plaster the walls.
I've just been hearing something about a grant the Green party set up to insulate houses. Anyone know where I might get some info on that?

cork1

his may be a start http://www.sei.ie/Grants/Home_Energy_Saving_Scheme/

muffler

cork1 wrote: »

his may be a start http://www.sei.ie/Grants/Home_Energy_Saving_Scheme/

Yes that would be a good start. Grants are available so definitely make use of them.

The 3 most important factors in insulating are walls, attic and windows. Some would argue that floors need to be in the top 3 but for a retrofit insulation job you need to make sure the "envelope" of the building is seen to first. Heat rises so floors can be left to last.

You need to determine what type of external wall construction they have and then select an appropriate insulation system. Attic needs insulating as do all pipes that are located there. Replace any remaining single glazed windows with at least double glazing.

beyondpassive

Word of warning, Insulation, ventilation and humidity control are all linked, improving insulation without regard to the other two factors can cause difficulties down the line. This is especially acute in older buildings. Historic building materials such as brick and lime plasters were diffusion open and could sweat moisture. Using cementicious plaster or Pheonolic/ PIR typ insulants can lead to a build up of condensation and mould growth. The usual solution for protected buildings is a large boiler or range keeping the thermal inertia high and half a meter of cellulose in the attic, then draft seal windows and doors. Avoid the PVC or Aluminium windows.

muffler

beyondpassive wrote: »

Avoid the PVC or Aluminium windows.

Why?

Slig

Personally I believe the attic is the best place to start, You can incorporate the most amount of insulation with the least amount of disturbance. Personally the next thing I would check is the draft proofing. Trying to keep heat in while warm air is escaping through the envelope doesnt make much sence. As posted before be careful with over insulation and sealing of the building.

I can see why beyondpassive is reccomending to stay away from Pvc or aluminium window frames in lieu of timber but it is very hard to justify paying twice or 3 times the price for essentially the same end result.

who what when

First step most definitely should be to install double glazed windows (U-value 1.6 min). Doing this will make by far the most notable differance.

Next another poster suggested adding external insulation to the outer walls. While this is a good idea in terms of sprucing up the exterior of the house it may not be as far as heat loss is concerned. If its a spacious house with large rooms then i would definitely suggest internal insulated panels.

Thirdly attic insulation. About 400mm should suffice.

These 3 measures (whilst extremely expensive) would transform the house as a living environment.

RKQ

Insulate the attic. This is the least disruptive job and the easiest DIY job. Heat rises so IMO insulating the attic will provide very noticable results.

Pheonolic/ PIR type insulants can lead to a build up of condensation and mould growth if you don't know what you are doing. It can also be easily avoided - seek experienced professional advice to avoid this problem.

External insulation is quite expensive compared to internal insulation but it is less disruptive as regards having to move electric sockets, switches, shelving, curtain poles, rad positions etc, which all have to be relocated / altered if installing internal insulation boards.

Some might feel that PVC or Aluminium windows don't match the asthetic beauty of wooden windows, particularly in an older property. But from an insulation point of view - which this thread is about - there is no insulation reason not to use PVC.

Do your homework. Study all the different methods of retro-fit insulation, apply for Govern grants & make up your own mind. Good luck.

beyondpassive

Re: Choice of windows.

Changing the windows is often the first port of call for people wishing to improve comfort levels and reduce heat demand. In historic building, empirical evidence shows it is one of the least effective interventions as value for money. Heavy curtains are an alternative. I'm not against PVC or aluminium as window mateials, although we are seeing huge condensation problems with aluminium in celtic tiger apartments. I find PVC unsuitable for older buildings which have not dealt with humidity and ventilation. It must be considered that our current expectations of comfort at 22 degrees, puts a lot of energy into the air which enables the air hold an extra 7% relative humidity for every degree raised, now consider that every person in the household puts about 2 litres of vapour into the air per day and you have a problem. Back in the day, people purged the air by opening windows through the middle of the day. With a timber window and single glazing, condensation problems will manifest at the windows not in your structure. The balence between comfort temperature and humidity is a complex area and one most of our construction professionals and technicians arn't expert in yet. The reality is, raising the temperature of an old house, raises the humidity levels, the windows are your vents to move air, thus reducing its ability to hold water. If you take out these vents you must replace them elsewhere and whole house ventilation or MHRV has to be considered as a way of dropping the relative humidity.

mukki

not sure if i am allowed to post this in here....

most local builders will work for cash which will give higher savings then claiming grants and going thru grant approved builders, less paperwork too, so you might save a tree

gman2k

who what when wrote: »

First step most definitely should be to install double glazed windows (U-value 1.6 min). Doing this will make by far the most notable differance.

No, first step is not changing the windows.
In fact changing the windows to double glazing does so little, the original owners of the property will probably never see a financial return.
Always think of the lowest hanging fruit idea - ie, always do what is easiest (and cheapest) first.
Control and eliminate unwanted air leakage around external doors and windows - an easy DIY job.
Insulate attic areas - ensuring ventilation to same is maintained. Again, generally a DIY suitable job.
After that, wall insulation can be looked at, but can have implications such as - solid walls, no cavity to pump obviously, so internal drylining may be the best solution. However, this will have knock on impact on elec sockets, plumbing etc, and if these items are old, now may be the time to replace. Bathrooms may need to be retiled, kitchen units reinstalled/ replaced etc etc etc
So before you know it, a major refit is taking place....

mukki

gman2k wrote: »

No, first step is not changing the windows.
In fact changing the windows to double glazing does so little, the original owners of the property will probably never see a financial return.

+1


i know a guy over the road who spent thousands removing the old windows and fitting double glazing,

he said there was no difference, and wishes he never bothered

if light can get through your windows then your heat can too, bit like the way the sun warms the earth

muffler

gman2k wrote: »

No, first step is not changing the windows.
In fact changing the windows to double glazing does so little, the original owners of the property will probably never see a financial return.

I'd agree that changing windows wouldn't be no. 1 on the priority list but to claim that there would never be a financial return for this investment is a bit wide of the mark.

Straight forward replacement of single glazing with double glazing will ALWAYS reduce the heating bill. Its one of the cogs in a retro-fit insualtion system and without doing this then the whole process is weakened.

gman2k wrote: »

Control and eliminate unwanted air leakage around external doors and windows - an easy DIY job.

I think that goes without saying. When windows and doors are being replaced there are more and better options to draft proof openings.

mukki wrote: »

+1


i know a guy over the road who spent thousands removing the old windows and fitting double glazing,

he said there was no difference, and wishes he never bothered

if light can get through your windows then your heat can too, bit like the way the sun warms the earth

No harm mate but I find that statement quite amazing and poor advice to offer anyone.

We're not talking about solar panels here.

gman2k

muffler wrote: »

I'd agree that changing windows wouldn't be no. 1 on the priority list but to claim that there would never be a financial return for this investment is a bit wide of the mark.
.

Not my findings, but from a UK study (don't have a linky to hand) which found that 'upgrading' to DG has an extremely long return on financial investment- measured in decades.
So, not wide of the mark.
PS, I never said their would never be a financial return.

Also first port of call for anyone wishint to reduce costs would be to switch to a cheaper electricity provider - money for nothing!

eoghan.geraghty

OP,
As you're only home for the holidays your priority should be attic insulation.
I recently put 300mm isover fibre glass insulation into my aunt's house, 1950s cavity block in goatstown.
She noticed the difference immediately, said it was like switching from a blanket to a duvet.
I spent E200 to cover a 40sq metre attic.