help... indoor boiler 50/90 firebird - please

clear.

Hi,

I need help... there are no service people working today and I have a problem with my boiler.... got oil in monday- had ran out completely. It was air locked. Got someone into fix it- they just needed to bleed it. I think they bleed it from the wrong screw (from what I've read up on)- vent is black outside, v. strong smell of oil. Won't come on even on the timer like it normally does- have to open it and press the black button to get it to start each time. Was Christmas so I just made do.... I'm worried this is not safe, especially with the kids.

I think the air pressure is off- and there is no one around to fix it. Can I do this myself (very step by step if you want to help with any instructions please!) - if not, is it safe to use it like this until next week when I can get someone in?? worried about the smell around the kids, and also could it explode??

Please give advice if you can.

Thank you!

(i have an indoor firebird 50/90 boiler that takes kerosene).

items

clear. wrote: »

Hi,

I need help... there are no service people working today and I have a problem with my boiler.... got oil in monday- had ran out completely. It was air locked. Got someone into fix it- they just needed to bleed it. I think they bleed it from the wrong screw (from what I've read up on)- vent is black outside, v. strong smell of oil. Won't come on even on the timer like it normally does- have to open it and press the black button to get it to start each time. Was Christmas so I just made do.... I'm worried this is not safe, especially with the kids.

I think the air pressure is off- and there is no one around to fix it. Can I do this myself (very step by step if you want to help with any instructions please!) - if not, is it safe to use it like this until next week when I can get someone in?? worried about the smell around the kids, and also could it explode??

Please give advice if you can.

Thank you!

(i have an indoor firebird 50/90 boiler that takes kerosene).

To avoid confusion you should disconnect the oil hose going into burner next time you have an air lock to bleed line.

Who ever has tried to bleed oil line has either messed up oil pressure or air settings. Its very had to describe how to reset over the internet with out the correct tools, an oil pressure gauge is needed along with a probe for testing combustion.

From the smell you could have a build up of oil inside the burner as its not set up right, not very safe to run. Unfortunately best advice I can give is to wait out until a service engineer can be found.

JamesM

items wrote: »

To avoid confusion you should disconnect the oil hose going into burner next time you have an air lock to bleed line.

Who ever has tried to bleed oil line has either messed up oil pressure or air settings. Its very had to describe how to reset over the internet with out the correct tools, an oil pressure gauge is needed along with a probe for testing combustion.

From the smell you could have a build up of oil inside the burner as its not set up right, not very safe to run. Unfortunately best advice I can give is to wait out until a service engineer can be found.

Items, a lot of what you say is sense, but then you tell someone to disconnect the oil line when bleeding the burner. You do not need to disconnect the oil line - you bleed the burner at an allen screw, or a bolt, on the oil pump. I do agree that someone has messed up the adjustments and that a service engineer should be called.
Jim.

danjo-xx

items wrote: »

To avoid confusion you should disconnect the oil hose going into burner next time you have an air lock to bleed line

This is something I'm interesed in learning how to do, are you saying that we should disconnect the feed pipe (and let if flow till clear of air) and then re-connect, if so would air not get into the system while bleeding the line?

items

danjo-xx wrote: »

This is something I'm interesed in learning how to do, are you saying that we should disconnect the feed pipe (and let if flow till clear of air) and then re-connect, if so would air not get into the system while bleeding the line?

Nope, its with out doubt the best way to bleed an air locked oil line, you dont have to undo it fully, just crack it open until loose, move it about to break contact and allow some oil to flow out. Once you have a trickle its enough for the boiler to run, any air that might be still trapped in oil pump etc will pass out through nozzle on first fire.

Its tricky to locate the nut, you have to remove the burner cover, norm just two large flat head screws, then tuck yourself down to see the nut on the formed bend. I keep spanners for each type of hose, 12, 13 and 14, sometimes I've used 16.

Too much confusion happens with different types of oil boilers, a lot of people make a mistake by loosening the wrong nut to bleed oil line, then they mess up oil pressure or air which leaves boiler running incorrectly.

Beside the oil line inlet you might find another nut, its only a blank cap directly beside the burner oil line inlet nut. The space which is blanked by the nut is for installing a tiger loop should your oil tank be lower than boiler, in some cases loosening this nut can also bleed air out of oil line. I was given all these tip's from a great oil boiler service man, passed away since but like it do, thats the only way he removed air from oil line.

I never touch bleed screw, never even bother to look for it, always crack open line going into burner and never one single problem, been doing so for years.

Some times if a oil user runs out of oil regular, constant bleed calls, I fit a small solder tee on oil line with the dead end having a small bleed like you see on a rad, that way user can bleed oil line without touching the burner.

If your not so confidant, before breaking oil line at burner, shut off supply at fire check valve, small brass wheel head should be real close to burner, turn that anti clock wise until its free, it shuts off supply, then crack nut at burner open, turn supply back on until you see oil flowing, shut it off again, tighten nut at burner then open wheel head by tightening down fully.

Air locks stop oil from flowing to burner, thats the problem, not air in burner. Once oil can flow, the burner takes care of the rest.

JamesM

I really find it amazing that someone can write so much and not say anything.
The air gets trapped in the oil pump. The oil pump cannot pump air, so you open the bleed screw and release the air - you do not need to open the oil line.
Jim.

items

JamesM wrote: »

I really find it amazing that someone can write so much and not say anything.
The air gets trapped in the oil pump. The oil pump cannot pump air, so you open the bleed screw and release the air - you do not need to open the oil line.
Jim.

You just refuse to take in the info Jim thats all.

Honestly I've done this a million and one times over. The reason why oil boiler wont come on in this case is down to no supply of oil (no movement) not air in burner or oil pump.

By cracking the nut at burner, million and one times you'll remove air thats trapped in oil line not burner.

Oil is trapped in the line first, that is where the problem stems, not in the burner.

When you crack open the nut at the end of oil line, air will come out which proves its the oil line thats full of air not the burner.

Any air in the burner is minimal and the power of suction created by oil pump activating will remove any minimal amount of air all by it's self.

You dont have to use the bleed screw, cracking the nut at the end of oil line is doing the same job only better, saves all kinds of hassle.

Have to of made it out in a way for you to understand, try it for yourself next time and I'll bet you'll never bother spending the time to find the correct bleed screw. You should be thanking me for the advice, not criticizing everything I say.

JamesM

I know that I should ignore you, but I'll try one more time. This is a DIY forum. This is something that a competent householder can do.
I'll try to explain this simply. Unless it is a case where the user gets very little oil, or if the tank is very low compared to the burner, you do not need to open the oil line and have oil all over the place.
Scenario: Oil runs out and air gets into the pipe. Tank is filled - oil pushes air as far as it can. Air rises to highest point - oil pump (which cannot pump air). Loosen bleed screw on oil pump - air immediately escapes - barely a drip of oil, which is caught on cloth. Press button - burner starts.
Jim.

items

JamesM wrote: »

I know that I should ignore you, but I'll try one more time. This is a DIY forum. This is something that a competent householder can do.
I'll try to explain this simply. Unless it is a case where the user gets very little oil, or if the tank is very low compared to the burner, you do not need to open the oil line and have oil all over the place.
Scenario: Oil runs out and air gets into the pipe. Tank is filled - oil pushes air as far as it can. Air rises to highest point - oil pump (which cannot pump air). Loosen bleed screw on oil pump - air immediately escapes - barely a drip of oil, which is caught on cloth. Press button - burner starts.
Jim.

I'll stick with my way, thanks for advice. Still waiting for answers to those questions I've put to you. Your constant criticism will now on be ignored until those questions are answered. I've no problem answering yours so its only fair.

Outkast_IRE

have to agree bleeding from the oil pump via the screw is the best option thats why its built into the pump .
Only problem is sometimes people mistake the pressure screw for the bleed one and you end up with issues like the one above.

items

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Only problem is sometimes people mistake the pressure screw for the bleed one and you end up with issues like the one above.

That's why I always suggest not to go near any of the adjustments on burner, people get confused very often and mess with oil and air pressure. I've had dozens of calls from people with a simple air lock, I mention how cracking open supply at burner a little, moving the hose to break seal until oil weeps out is more than enough have boiler running.

Burners are normally out side, in casings, dark and hard to see. Very easy to describe how to remove air over the phone by using the above method.

Try it for yourself next time, you'll be surprised.

JamesM

items wrote: »

I'll stick with my way, thanks for advice. Still waiting for answers to those questions I've put to you. Your constant criticism will now on be ignored until those questions are answered. I've no problem answering yours so its only fair.

items, I don't want a pissing match with you. The only question you asked was, why do the manufacturers hide the high limit stat. They don't.
Under the heading: 1- USER INSTRUCTIONS, there is a diagram and instructions on how to reset the stat - for useby the user
This is a manual for a common Grant boiler http://www.grantengineering.ie/userfiles/download_61.pdf

Jim.

items

JamesM wrote: »

items, I don't want a pissing match with you. The only question you asked was, why do the manufacturers hide the high limit stat. They don't.
Under the heading: 1- USER INSTRUCTIONS, there is a diagram and instructions on how to reset the stat - for useby the user
This is a manual for a common Grant boiler http://www.grantengineering.ie/userfiles/download_61.pdf

Jim.

I've no probs at all, you seem to have the prob. Read up on posts, not sure where the questions are at this stage but their is a few questions in relation to high limit stat, not just one, still haven't answered them.

Again thats an installation and service manual, I've said it a dozen times, that manual should be left at boiler for a service person. When you buy an oil boiler you get two manuals, service and installation manual and separate easy to follow user manual, try and find a link with the actual user manual.

I'd like to see it for myself, I haven't been paying much attention to oil over the last few years as I've moved onto Geothermal, unless their has been a change in last few years that I am not aware of, high limit stat is not to be readily used.

No need, I've found it. Have a look at the link you provided, around page 30. That is the actual user guide to be left with user. All of one page, with a reference to only showing user how to reset boiler by either, high limit (over heat) stat or lock out reset button. In the manual Grant recommend only Oftec certified or Grant certified persons install or maintain their boilers. Giving that, they leave it in a way to cover themselves. If a certified person installed the boiler, chances of it locking out on high limit would be minimal and the user would be given correct details associated with risks when resetting boiler at high limit. In the actual user guide, the high limit stat is not as obvious as you make it out to be, same reason they haven't included a simple sticker to give information under the high limit reset button. If using high limit reset was to be used willy nilly as you suggest, it would be a lot more obvious in both user manual and at boiler.

danjo-xx

items wrote: »

Nope, its with out doubt the best way to bleed an air locked oil line, you dont have to undo it fully, just crack it open until loose, move it about to break contact and allow some oil to flow out. Once you have a trickle its enough for the boiler to run, any air that might be still trapped in oil pump etc will pass out through nozzle on first fire.

Its tricky to locate the nut, you have to remove the burner cover, norm just two large flat head screws, then tuck yourself down to see the nut on the formed bend. I keep spanners for each type of hose, 12, 13 and 14, sometimes I've used 16.

Too much confusion happens with different types of oil boilers, a lot of people make a mistake by loosening the wrong nut to bleed oil line, then they mess up oil pressure or air which leaves boiler running incorrectly.

Beside the oil line inlet you might find another nut, its only a blank cap directly beside the burner oil line inlet nut. The space which is blanked by the nut is for installing a tiger loop should your oil tank be lower than boiler, in some cases loosening this nut can also bleed air out of oil line. I was given all these tip's from a great oil boiler service man, passed away since but like it do, thats the only way he removed air from oil line.

I never touch bleed screw, never even bother to look for it, always crack open line going into burner and never one single problem, been doing so for years.

Some times if a oil user runs out of oil regular, constant bleed calls, I fit a small solder tee on oil line with the dead end having a small bleed like you see on a rad, that way user can bleed oil line without touching the burner.

If your not so confidant, before breaking oil line at burner, shut off supply at fire check valve, small brass wheel head should be real close to burner, turn that anti clock wise until its free, it shuts off supply, then crack nut at burner open, turn supply back on until you see oil flowing, shut it off again, tighten nut at burner then open wheel head by tightening down fully.

Air locks stop oil from flowing to burner, thats the problem, not air in burner. Once oil can flow, the burner takes care of the rest.

That really makes a whole lot of sense to me indeed, I'm thinking of the situation where your tank runs dry and air is in the line, not deeper in the system or the pump. I'm no expert but this does seem very logical to me.

gillad

i had an airlock in my system after the oil ran out.bleeding from the bleed screw/nut did not work,so i took off the oil hose and that worked.if its a big airlock you need to disconnect the oil line

JamesM

I will revisit this subject only because I want to try to ensure that people cause as little damage as possible when they run out of oil. I will explain this very simply.
When the oil level in the tank gets too low, the outlet pipe is exposed and air follows the last bit of oil along the pipe. When the air reaches the oil pump the flame first splutters, then dies from lack of oil. As this is happening, the burner tries to re-ignite, maybe a few times. All this time there is no oil to lubricate the gears in the oil pump and wear occurs.
Then the oil is delivered. It enters the outlet pipe, (which is full of air, as the oil has all been burned at the burner, as described above) and runs towards the burner. Depending on the level of the pipe, some air will go back into the oil tank, but a lot will be pushed towards the burner and be trapped at the oil pump. When there is a long run from the tank to the burner, or when only a small amount of oil has been delivered, it is sometimes necessary to open the oil line before it enters the oil pump. There are sometimes bleed screws on the oil filter for this. Most of the time, it is only necessary to open the bleed screw on the oil pump and let the air out. Then the boiler will fire up when the reset button on the control box is pushed. If one tries to suck up the oil, as has been suggested by some, without opening the bleed screw, the gears in the pump are turning, un-lubricated, while the pump is trying to draw oil up into its chamber. This naturally damages the gears, and is the reason we have people coming to this forum saying, “I got oil last week, I bled it and it seemed fine, but now it has stopped” The gears in the pump had been damaged and then finally seized.
So, open the oil line if you think that there could be a lot of air trapped, but make sure to open the bleed screw on the pump and get the air out before trying to start the burner.
Jim.

thepallasbull1

Items I agree with you about opening the feed pipe and allowing fuel to flow
it makes simple logic , air in pipe after running out means that when you refill the air is trapped in the pipe and pushed towards the burner
now yes you can bleed from the burner like i have done may times and have to keep pressing the reset switch to keep trying to fire her up and draw the air out till she eventually fires , this to me seems like too much work
now Items doing it like you do it makes life simple , i break a joint just before the burner and let the fuel flow into a small can and not on the floor as some people may think and when i am happy close the joint
All thats left for me to do is remove the air from the joint to the outlet jet and this only takes 2 or 3 presses of the reset switch and away I go
I have done this method for years and it works fine . all thats wrong with some people is they are afraid to come out of their comfort box for fear of making a mistake. At the end of the day the results are the same
BOILER WORKING AGAIN

items

thepallasbull1 wrote: »

Items I agree with you about opening the feed pipe and allowing fuel to flow
it makes simple logic , air in pipe after running out means that when you refill the air is trapped in the pipe and pushed towards the burner
now yes you can bleed from the burner like i have done may times and have to keep pressing the reset switch to keep trying to fire her up and draw the air out till she eventually fires , this to me seems like too much work
now Items doing it like you do it makes life simple , i break a joint just before the burner and let the fuel flow into a small can and not on the floor as some people may think and when i am happy close the joint
All thats left for me to do is remove the air from the joint to the outlet jet and this only takes 2 or 3 presses of the reset switch and away I go
I have done this method for years and it works fine . all thats wrong with some people is they are afraid to come out of their comfort box for fear of making a mistake. At the end of the day the results are the same
BOILER WORKING AGAIN

That's the idea.

When oil line is air locked, problem hasn't even made it to boiler. The problem is air in pipe work after storage tank up to boiler, thats why boiler is not firing. Happens regular and makes perfect sense to me, to remove air at a location before burner, best place @ last joint of oil line.

Anyone can do it, that's whats great about it, all you have to do is tell person to follow oil line to last joint, loosen it, small rag or bowl below to catch any lost oil. Once you see even a weep, its enough to for boiler to run. Never a problem with messing up oil pressure this way.

davelerave

there is a risk that the 'user' might leave a leak when they disturb the fuel line and re-tighten imo.

items

davelerave wrote: »

there is a risk that the 'user' might leave a leak when they disturb the fuel line and re-tighten imo.

Could be alright.

Tightening a loose nut is pretty much same as tightening a loose burner bleed, leaks could happen in either case.

thepallasbull1

Items a question for you I have a pressurised syytem that i fitted my self
now every now and then the pressure on the regulator drops from 2 bar to nothing resulting in no heat up stairs but heat down stairs. And when i move the regulator to allow water back in to the pressure of 2 bar the heating works away agin up stairs . Is this due to the system drawing air at the tank/regulator or what took me a while to find the initial problem

davelerave

i think the risk is higher with your technique:D

items

thepallasbull1 wrote: »

Items a question for you I have a pressurised syytem that i fitted my self
now every now and then the pressure on the regulator drops from 2 bar to nothing resulting in no heat up stairs but heat down stairs. And when i move the regulator to allow water back in to the pressure of 2 bar the heating works away agin up stairs . Is this due to the system drawing air at the tank/regulator or what took me a while to find the initial problem

If its pressurized as in sealed with expansion vessel, system cant really draw in that much air. If system is sealed, once topped up correctly, it should hold pressure for a great deal of time.

Depending on how often you have to fill it, you could have a big leak somewhere, leaks, filling system regular is not good. Your introducing fresh water into system, fresh water is full of air, air and water means rust. If your filling system regular, boiler heat exchanger, rads and so on, they are all rusting from inside.

Some times a dodgy expansion vessel can effect system pressure, bad or blown vessel will show signs of pressure drop. I once visited a house suffering problems like yours, constant top ups, pressure drops, top ups again, this went on for almost a year before I got there. Gas boiler heat exchanger had to be replaced soon after I found system had no expansion vessel at all.

Boiler safety valves can leak, gate valve glands can leak, rad valve glands can leak, all unnoticed. Have a look at those areas first, then onto expansion vessel and circulation pumps.

If problem is not expansion vessel, its a leak.

thepallasbull1

thanks items for your swift responce, i will look at all the items you described and will let you know how i get on . I dont top up that often this is the first time in about 4 years that i have had any trouble , up to now every thing was fine but when i looked at the gauge the other day I noticed id had dropped pressure
will check to morrow ...thank....pat

clear.

well... its not working at all (and it hasn't since about a day after the last post. its not "firing"... and everyone is frozen in so no one can come look at it... i didn't touch it so it wasn't anything i did to cause it to stop.... ughhh. its so cold out!