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National Broadband Scheme

  • 24-12-2009 8:37pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭ Amtmann


    Just interested in getting the views of Sponge Bob, dubhtach et al on this scheme, its progress, and its scope.

    One thing that strikes me is the areas due to receive broadband. Many (see Mayo and Galway and, er, Galtymore) seem to be very remote, while the south-east, for instance, would seem to be targeted for fairly scant coverage. On what basis were the targeted regions selected? And do posters believe that Three will achieve its target of September 2010?

    Website: http://ve.bizmaps.ie/threeireland/Pages/Public/NBSPublicPage.aspx


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,278 ✭✭✭ dowlingm


    I think the government needs to know what it wants to achieve and who it wants to achieve it for. There is no need (here, I'm saying it) for a home user to have a 50Mb down DSL connection so they can torrent Glee.

    This is not the same as using it for delivery of IPTV etc - that's for the content carrier to worry about as it should be delivered over a dedicated or at the very least a well QoSed network.

    However, the business utility of 100Mb public Ethernet and 3 / 10Mb MPLS has made a huge difference operationally to the company I work for (it has meant we can take webhosting in house and have reasonably dependable site-to-site VOIP)


  • Registered Users Posts: 579 ✭✭✭ jimmyendless


    Its very annoying that some areas might not even get any broadband. With a small population and a small country it shouldn't cost relatively too much to set this up and if it could support industry in dying areas it would probably be economically beneficial to the country in the long run. We are so far behind so many countries that we should at least be on par with. But saying that we are behind in alot more important areas too such at health and education.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    This is a mickey mouse scheme which is delivered on a technology that cannot guarantee a reasonable quality of service by design. It is supposed to cover about 1/3 of the state where the most dispersed 10% of the population live ...by and large.

    If you are relying on it delivering for you then don't. The main technical drawback of 3G is that whoever shouts loudest gets the best service. If you use a repeater and your neighbour does not then your shouting drowns their signal out . So they go get a repeater and you are back to square one again.

    The scheme is not there to provide 100% coverage although Eamon Ryan has released press statements to that end.

    The scheme is allegedly to provide 100% coverage across about 1/3rd of the state and teh other 2/3rds are supposedly served by the market.

    The scheme is supposed to provide 95% coverage in each served electoral district using 3g . The remainder may be served using 2 way Satellite and the current provider of the satellite service is Tooway.

    I understand that if an area is not 95% served by 3g by end 2010 then 3 may ask for an extension if there are planning issues or may ask to be released from the contract for those areas.

    They got 1000 electoral districts to do and €80k to do each one. I would think the contract will be reduced pro rata for each area they say they cannot do and release back to the department. That is inevitable. They will not manage 95% coverage by 3g in all 1000.

    The crapness of 3 in general is clearly explained in this document.

    http://irelandoffline.org/wp-content/2009/02/irelandoffline-nbs_briefing_document.pdf


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 Tech3


    How much of the scheme is being funded by taxpayers money?

    SpongeBob how will the repeater help you get better download and upload speeds. The signal strength is not the most important aspect of the connection rather the amount of users on a cell, the weather conditions and the bandwidth of the cell?

    I have 3G myself and I know how bad it can be. The connection is variable and not stable enough for broadband. My connection would average 200kbit/sec on a good day. It would be a better idea IMO to upgrade the exchanges in more urban areas to high speed broadband.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    tech2 wrote: »
    How much of the scheme is being funded by taxpayers money?

    €40m taxpayer and €40m EU
    SpongeBob how will the repeater help you get better download and upload speeds. The signal strength is not the most important aspect of the connection rather the amount of users on a cell, the weather conditions and the bandwidth of the cell?

    The repeater makes your signal louder , louder signals get higher priority on 3G as they are assumed to be closer to the mast. However it takes very few users to max out a 3g cell.
    It would be a better idea IMO to upgrade the exchanges in more urban areas to high speed broadband.

    Well most urban lines are ADSL2 enabled by now.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭ dubhthach


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    €40m taxpayer and €40m EU

    However it takes very few users to max out a 3g cell.

    Indeed of course when you mention this the minister likes to start waffling about LTE etc. One thing I will say for 3 is at least they started peering at INEX this year. Before hand if you were going to irish sites on other irish networks your traffic would have been routed through London first (ouch!), O2 and vodafone have both joined this year as well and Meteor peers through Eircom connection.

    https://www.inex.ie/technical/peeringmatrix


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    LTE is marketing BS that he heard about from the 3g networks themselves. Ryan drops acronyms like this to sound like he actually knows something. He neither knows nor cares about teh comms part of his brief.

    He is only concerned at ensuring that Ireland has the highest electricity prices in the world like we have the highest line rental in the world already :(

    While the move from CDMA to Flash OFDM and MIMO _will_ improve matters ( from 2014/2015 when LTE is actually wwidely rolled out here that is ) it will not even guarantee the general latency and bandwidth of a 1mbit DSL line to each user in a sector.

    So what if 3 peer in the INEX, they NAT 10000 users behind every public IP address and give them one return port :(

    Another mickey mouse job. Too little and too late...guaranteed as always in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭ dubhthach


    Indeed, back to Furet original question. I generally regard broadband dongles as only usable for emergency usage or for doing something like checking emails while off-site (meetings etc.) I wouldn't want to run a business that had to rely on the NBS as it's sole means of accessing the internet that's faster then dial up!

    The whole thing is a load of window dressing to make appear that they are actually doing something for rural voters. I've noticed on Eircom site that they are actually using the presence of the NBS to decide not to "broadband enable" exchanges, so in other words it means people in affected areas will never have a choice of having adsl even if they live within an ass's roar of local exchange.
    The National Broadband Scheme which was recently announced by the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources is expected to provide a service to the following exchange areas currently without a broadband service from eircom or any other broadband provider.

    Galway map of Eircom exchanges (click)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    The NBS is snakeoil, some math is in order.

    eircom have about 1.6m lines connected to all their exchanges of which about 100,000 lines at most are connected to exchanges they do not intend to enable ...around 300 of them , generally sub 400 lines and mainly much smaller. They are very much in diminishing marginal return territory here.

    You mentioned Galway Exchanges .

    All the Connemara Red spots are sub 200 lines save Recess which is a tad more and Roundstone 300 Tully Cross Kilronan and and Cleggan 400 . Cornamona is enabled .

    They average 200 lines between them . East Galway ones a bit more, maybe 300

    Galway.jpg

    One of the enduring peculiarities of the NBS scheme is that many NBS areas are covered or largely covered for DSL or are to be upgraded to DSL.

    Even more peculiar is the fact that most of these NBS areas where DSL is available can get 'up to' 24mbits while most areas where the NBS was not deemed necessary can only get 'up to' 8mbits.

    I did say that 5% of the population in ANY GIVEN Electoral District may be served by satellite.

    However the remainder , 1000 rural electoral districts taking up 1/3 of the state are supposed to get mininum 1.2mbits at the cell edge now and 1.6mbits from July .

    3 proposes to do this with 400 masts meaning each mast covers an average 2.5 electoral districts which themselves average just over 20km squared in size nationally ( and generally less in URBAN areas ) .

    Consequently 3 imply that each mast will cover 50km squared in coverage and will only miss out 5% of the population in that served area .

    To do this each mast must provide a 1.2megabit minimum service out to almost exactly 4km radius assuming they are perfectly spaced.

    Yet when the Indians examined using this technology ( and with slightly flimsier walls than we have ) they reckoned it would only work at 2km unrepeatered. They looked at the crux which is building penetration at 2.1ghz and that is what a dongle must do.

    http://www.ursi.org/Proceedings/ProcGA05/pdf/C01.2%2801660%29.pdf
    HSDPA: RANGE IS THE CHALLENGE
    As can be seen in the above table, the range of HSDPA is severely limited to around 2Km cells, as compared the current GSM/GPRS systems that have range that is one order of magnitude higher. This could mean that the current GSM/GPRS infrastructure is largely insufficient for HSDPA coverage, and significant additional capex may be required to deploy HSDPA into rural areas. The entire cost benefit gains of HSDPA due to its higher capacity could thus be offset due to the cost increase due to lower range.

    Range is dependent on some key factors as discussed below:
    · Frequency: Lower frequencies reach further. But it is highly unlikely that bandwidth in the 400 MHz
    bands will be made available for HSDPA in India.
    · Data rate: Lower rate transmissions can span a higher range. A 100Mbps transmission can be
    coherently received over 200 metres, while for distances in kilometres, only 100 kbps transmission per
    subscriber may be realisable. This may limit the kind of services that can be provided.
    · Position of the terminal antenna: Rooftop antennae can provide a range of around 30 kms [5]. The table below summarises this.

    · Using repeaters especially in rural areas, the range can be increased without substantially increasing
    the cost.
    This is an active part of Release 6 recommendations [7].
    Increasing the range of HSDPA is a key research problem that determines its success for rural India.

    This is the repeater effect explained. Once you start using repeaters the shouting reduces the cell capacity dramatically . In fact one OUTDOOR REPEATER will take up a whole cell where you could stuff in 800 quiet and profitable urban dongles or 230 slightly noiser suburban dongles or 12 of the windowsill jobbies Three provide.
    Gain Height Building loss Range Relative site count
    Rooftop – LOS 10 dBi 8 m 0 dB > 30km
    Rooftop NLOS 10 dBi 8 m 0 dB 6.2 km 1
    Terminal - upstairs window 3 dBi 5 m 0 dB 1.8 km 12
    Outdoor PCcard 0 dBi 1.5 m 0 dB 780 m 60
    Indoor PCcard - Suburban 0 dBi 1.5 m 10 dB 410 m 230
    Indoor PCcard - Urban 0 dBi 1.5 m 20 dB 210 m 800
    All figures except LOS based on COST231-Hata model with 10dB shadow margin and no cable losses.

    If we further dimension the network for the 3 sectors that each cell has we get a maximum capacity of

    400 cells x 3 sectors each x 12 repeaters each = 14400 customers ...and yet 400,000 people live in NBS areas.

    Snakeoil Ambrose, but smart green snakeoil of course :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,028 -Corkie-


    I have been looking at the rollout of this scheme closley.

    Most of the holdup is with planning applications. Their is a mast to go up in the forestry behind me which was to be live now. They had objections so its gone to an bord pleanala and wont have a decison to may.

    Many other county councils throughout the country are lookin for massive amounts of cash of 3 to allow them to build the masts.

    It seems ridiculous that a goverment scheme is hampered by a different goverment department. I am using it at the moment with the repeater and its ok.

    Hopefully the planning departments will see some sense and let these applications through.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 BluntGuy


    While I don't have a repeater installed myself, it is ridiculous when I hear that some people have to rely on them to even get SOME kind of half-decent service.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,028 -Corkie-


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    While I don't have a repeater installed myself, it is ridiculous when I hear that some people have to rely on them to even get SOME kind of half-decent service.

    I know theirs a mega thread on this but they should supply you one if you are in nbs area or if that dont suffice a satellie system at no charge.

    The whole scheme seems to be a farce which is nothing new for anything to do with the goverment. Where are you going with one gov dept objecting and screwing another department.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    They should supply you with a repeater if in an NBS area AND over 1km from the mast. The suppliers have signed up with Boards if you have any questions just PM them

    http://www.face.boards.ie/vbulletin/member.php?u=296295

    But you must sign an NBS type contract or else they won't give you the repeater and will give you a normal dongle instead.

    If within 1km of the mast you should not need one but if the signal is crap and you complain they will swap the dongle for the repeater.

    If everyone gets a repeater then those furthest from the mast will lose their service because the repeaters nearer the mast 'shout' louder and drown out the repeaters further out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,028 -Corkie-


    I am a bit confused i have a dongle thats the huawei yoke. I have the repeater too. They told me they were givin me another repeater that goes outside????? I asked was this satellite dish and she said no.. Sponge bob says that you get a repeater or dongle:confused:. Thanks for the nextivity link thread though


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    malcox wrote: »
    I am a bit confused i have a dongle thats the huawei yoke. I have the repeater too. They told me they were givin me another repeater that goes outside????? I asked was this satellite dish and she said no.. Sponge bob says that you get a repeater or dongle:confused:. Thanks for the nextivity link thread though

    Actually you are right, you get the dongle and then you get the repeater sent out too if you are in a marginal signal area ( they know where these should be ) or if you complain a lot you get the repeater.

    Did they come out with the repeater or send it out ???


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,028 -Corkie-


    They sent an engineer. Their is pp for a 50m mast behind my house but someone objected and its gone to an bord pleanala:(:(. If that was there i would have savage speeds. All the engineer had was a old nokia phone with a exterior antenna to see what coverage was there. I thought that was a foolish way to determine a hsdpa connection..


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    malcox wrote: »
    All the engineer had was a old nokia phone with a exterior antenna to see what coverage was there. I thought that was a foolish way to determine a hsdpa connection..

    There is a free symbian app that tells you the Db ( signal) levels and that would run on an old high end Nokia.

    You just gotta give them the right 'location' . The repeater guarantees you a mighty signal after that mast is built too :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,040 yuloni


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,028 -Corkie-


    Thanks condi. What speeds dows the satellite give. I presums satellite speeds would be the same for every customer regardless of location.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭ dubhthach


    malcox wrote: »
    Thanks condi. What speeds dows the satellite give. I presums satellite speeds would be the same for every customer regardless of location.

    The main issue really with Satellite is going to be latency after all the signal has to bounce off a satellite in geosynchronous orbit (circa 70,000km round trip). So not so much fun if you are a mad gamer type who needs every ms of latency so they don't get "fragged".

    I'd be curious though Condi on your speeds etc.If ye go to: http://www.speedtest.net/ you can run a speed test and see what sort of latency you are getting talking to speedtest server etc.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,040 yuloni


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,040 yuloni


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,110 KevR


    In what way does it seem faulty? It always seems to work fine for me in university and at home.

    I usually get 20MB upload speeds in NUIG. Just did the test now and got:
    733377573.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,110 KevR


    Condi, your ping time seems aweful high (to both the Limerick server and the Turin one). :confused:

    I'm checking my speed using the Turin server now and the upload test does seem to be faulty. Maybe it's just the Turin server?

    Galway, Dublin, Manchester and Paris work ok for me..


    EDIT: Only just after seeing the bit about your internet being satellite. As Dubthach said, 70,000km round trip - probably explains your high ping time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,028 -Corkie-


    God kevr they are some speeds:eek::eek::eek: Ill be old and grey/bald/dead before i get speeds like this on the nbs.
    733570657.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,040 yuloni


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  • Registered Users Posts: 34 clemyeats


    I live on the outskirts of the NBS. My only real option is to use Three's 3G network. I pay a lot of taxes (which subsidise people using the same access as me in the town next door) and also a lot of money to Three to get a ridiculous traffic allowance. I don't know why the NBS covers the town next door, and not mine... I don't know why our taxes subsidise traffic allowance of a mobile service based on where your house is located, and I don't understand how midband can be considered a viable alternative to DSL by the government when the issue at hand is getting people and companies connected and broabdand-enabled.

    I guess it's fine, I'll just pay, pay and pay. Every time my business uploads a 700MB ISO file, I'll pay. Everytime I need to download, I'll pay, until the day I won't accept to being milked like that. And all that money which should go to the state in income tax goes to Three instead, as we put it as a business cost and all end up paying for it, you, me, everybody... that's right, €35 every couple of days, every time we need to actually do some work online.

    And then there's Ka-Sat coming up... and with a bit of luck we can purchase access to it from a different European country, one where broadband consumers pay for speed and aren't used to the absurd idea of being limited for the traffic they use... you know, broadband, proper "always on", "unlimited" access to the Internet.

    I'm actually getting a really good service from Three, but this traffic allowance is killing us.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭ Sponge Bob


    You will get the cheaper NBS rate if your address is inside one of the NBS electroal districts,,,also remember that Hylas launched and may market before Ka Sat.


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