Do Irish Cities need Guardian Angels?

Podman

I think they do, People need to feel safe walking around.

New York started it off (Guardian Angels Alliance) but scumbags are global.

I'm not necessarily talking about vigilante groups, going around stabbing muggers to Eliminate The Problem, but rather a network of individuals who would be present and visible in areas of the city that cops don't go near.

What do you think?
Maybe the country will pay them a wage eventually?

dvpower

chompy wrote: »

I'm not necessarily talking about vigilante groups, going around stabbing muggers to Eliminate The Problem, but rather a network of individuals who would be present and visible in areas of the city that cops don't go near.

Are there areas in the city that the cops don't go near? I'd say that the cops would contest this.

Anyway, we tried this before with Concerned Parents Against Drugs and it wasn't exactly a success.

chompy wrote: »

Maybe the country will pay them a wage eventually?

I've got a better idea. We could use the existing volunteer garda reserve.

Podman

dvpower wrote: »

Are there areas in the city that the cops don't go near? I'd say that the cops would contest this.

Anyway, we tried this before with Concerned Parents Against Drugs and it wasn't exactly a success.

I've got a better idea. We could use the existing volunteer garda reserve.

Concerned Parents Against Drugs is not exactly the same thing. You'll see what I mean if you visit the link.

I often walk around Dublin, sometimes you'd see lots of cops, and other times you wouldn't see one. A few more concerned people wouldn't hurt, may it be gardai or citizens.

Podman

dvpower wrote: »

I've got a better idea. We could use the existing volunteer garda reserve.

People should get paid for the work they do.
Besides, there are people who care about public safety without wanting to become Garda

We have the Gardai... use them. Give them the training, the tools and the ability to effectively do their job, and we won't have such need for these "groups". And when I say give the Gardai the tools, I mean a justice system that actually punishes criminals and discourages continued crime after release.

There are certain areas in most big towns, never mind the cities where the Gardai will not go into without serious support which often translates into 3 or 4 times a year.. For many it is because the very people that cause the trouble have been arrested, tried in court, released for some rubbish reason, or has actually served time, and then been released. Basically, what are the Gardai supposed to do to these people? Arrest them again, when it just doesn't work?

So.. no.. these groups you suggest I wouldn't approve of. Firstly, a few would abuse it, and secondly a few would get themselves killed out of sheer stupidity.

Why not just seek to fix the system we already have?

Podman

Deleted User wrote: »

So.. no.. these groups you suggest I wouldn't approve of. Firstly, a few would abuse it, and secondly a few would get themselves killed out of sheer stupidity.

Why not just seek to fix the system we already have?

I suggest this thread to gauge people's interest in increasing the numbers of concerned guardians out there.

Corruption and Abuse is rife in this country and goes through almost every type of job at almost every level, you don't have to be a volunteer to be on the take or have another agenda. I'm not acusing anyone specifically here, I'm speaking in general about something that is unfortunately all too common. Guardian Angels are people open to the very same corruption, and would go about in twos or threes but unlike Gardai, would not carry any type of weapon.

As for "sheer stupidity", I'm not talking about clueless adolecents shivering on street corners, I'm talking about seasoned city dwellers, preferably with some self defense training and life experience to back themselves up, and to be able to back up the gardai if required. Bring back the whistle.
A person doesn't necessarily have to be a volunteer or "stupid" to be caught on their own or in the wrong place somewhere, or indeed make enemies. It would assist a lot of people to be able to look down to the corner and see somebody who you could depend on.

Gardai have one of the toughest jobs you can get, along with nurses, neither of which get paid enough.
Are you saying "no", so that if a Garda is chasing some thug down the street, he wouldn't appreciate a martial art dude to step out and be a brick wall for the thug to run into?
Are you saying "no", to ensure that if someone you might know has to walk home late, that there won't be anyone else there except some muggers hanging around?

Guardian Angels work in Co-Operation with Police, and have been going strong for over 30 years (wiki), and in 1995 founded CyberAngels to catch online predators.

Seasoned city dwellers.. I find that a rather funny term.. I've lived in many cities, have a reasonable knowledge of self-defense, fairly fit, and plenty of life experience. It didn't particularly help when I was beaten up by 7 guys in Cork. Go figure.

I'm saying no because I much prefer having a recognised and legal body such as the Gardai to be responsible for this country.. I have zero interest in passing any authority to civilians. Even if they were all Bruce Lee reborn, I wouldn't be interested. They would still be civilians at the end of the day.

But if all you're talking about is a nice little group of people helping each other out, by walking home in groups... then sure.. no problem. But thats not really what you're describing is it?

Podman

Deleted User wrote: »

Seasoned city dwellers.. I find that a rather funny term.. I've lived in many cities, have a reasonable knowledge of self-defense, fairly fit, and plenty of life experience. It didn't particularly help when I was beaten up by 7 guys in Cork. Go figure.

I'm saying no because I much prefer having a recognised and legal body such as the Gardai to be responsible for this country.. I have zero interest in passing any authority to civilians. Even if they were all Bruce Lee reborn, I wouldn't be interested. They would still be civilians at the end of the day.

But if all you're talking about is a nice little group of people helping each other out, by walking home in groups... then sure.. no problem. But thats not really what you're describing is it?

Your talking in extremes here, People who think they are "Bruce Lee reborn" don't need to walk home in nice little groups to feel safe, or think they're the bees knees, they do that twice a week down the dojo anyway. And quite frankly that kind of "invincible" arrogance has no place in public anyway.

I'm sorry that you were attacked. Some people are just scum. But..
You were beaten up by 7 guys and there was no one around to help? What if there was? What if the Cork Neighborhood Watch was mobile on the streets? Go figure.

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm saying no because I much prefer having a recognised and legal body such as the Gardai to be responsible for this country.. I have zero interest in passing any authority to civilians. ... They would still be civilians at the end of the day.

The Gardai are already responsible. Having a few extra good people around would make a positive difference in my opinion. It's not about Gardai Vs Civilians, it's about People Vs Scum.

Some "civilians" claim the authority themselves to go around in groups (of 7 for example) and mug people uncontested, especially if they know the Gardai have just headed up the other end of town. If nothing changes, then that's the way it will be long into the future.

koHd

I know in many parts of Dublin if this existed those people would become targets for attacks. They'd need to be big heffers of man meat with Bruce Lee skills to back it up to survive. And even at that they'd need large numbers and possibly weapons before a group of scummers would think twice about kickin the crap out of them. Great idea in theory. But in real rough areas they'd be slaughtered.

Podman

koHd wrote: »

I know in many parts of Dublin if this existed those people would become targets for attacks. They'd need to be big heffers of man meat with Bruce Lee skills to back it up to survive. And even at that they'd need large numbers and possibly weapons before a group of scummers would think twice about kickin the crap out of them. Great idea in theory. But in real rough areas they'd be slaughtered.

That is a huge issue and could very well be a problem alright. It worked in the New York subways, and I know Dublin has it's own particular "character", but there has to be good characters too. Not just junkies and pretend-sleepy-muggers hanging around luas stops.

Is there a reason why "special" volunteers like these can't have Garda training and be just as visible, with night-sticks and vests and the like? More Garda Volunteers?

Again, people need to some compensation for the work they do and the risks they take.

chompy

chompy wrote: »

Your talking in extremes here, People who think they are "Bruce Lee reborn" don't need to walk home in nice little groups to feel safe, or think they're the bees knees, they do that twice a week down the dojo anyway. And quite frankly that kind of "invincible" arrogance has no place in public anyway.

Actually the Bruce lee remark was the only extreme I used. If anything I should have used more extremes..

I'm sorry that you were attacked. Some people are just scum. But..
You were beaten up by 7 guys and there was no one around to help? What if there was? What if the Cork Neighborhood Watch was mobile on the streets? Go figure.

Oddly enough at the GPO in Cork.. At 3.30 am. And there were people around. Just one of those lulls when there's nobody in sight, or rather there was. There was this group. They were middle class the lot of them. Annoyed they hadn't scored in the club, and walking home with bottles in hand. First thing I knew that things were going wrong was when my mate was hit by a bottle to the head, and went down.

And I still think this neighborhood watch thingy is dodgy.

The Gardai are already responsible. Having a few extra good people around would make a positive difference in my opinion. It's not about Gardai Vs Civilians, it's about People Vs Scum.

Nope. you're not understanding what I mean by civilians. At the end of the day, Gardai are still gardai. They will be gardai the next day, and the next. etc. These civilians on the other hand will work externally to this set up. I'm particularly iffy about letting any civilian group have authority in relation to crime prevention/control. especially any group that would take physical action.. Because at the end of the day, they would be civilians.

Some "civilians" claim the authority themselves to go around in groups (of 7 for example) and mug people uncontested, especially if they know the Gardai have just headed up the other end of town. If nothing changes, then that's the way it will be long into the future.

Yup. There you go. You've drawn the comparison yourself. I see very little difference between these two groups.

As for things to be changed, I've already stated what I'd like our attention to be focused on. This country and many others, fail to deal with what needs to be fixed, instead spreading ourselves thin looking at auxiliary and minor changes which might help but will probably create their own host of problems... Fix the two core problems. The Justice and Prison systems. Then the Gardai will be able to effectively deal with the threats on the streets.

the_syco

chompy wrote: »

Besides, there are people who care about public safety without wanting to become Garda

They want instant power: repect is earned, not given.

chompy wrote: »

Are you saying "no", so that if a Garda is chasing some thug down the street, he wouldn't appreciate a martial art dude to step out and be a brick wall for the thug to run into?

Nice idea, except for one thing. We're in Ireland. The martial arts dude would be sued for harming the thug.

koHd wrote: »

I know in many parts of Dublin if this existed those people would become targets for attacks. They'd need to be big heffers of man meat with Bruce Lee skills to back it up to survive. And even at that they'd need large numbers and possibly weapons before a group of scummers would think twice about kickin the crap out of them. Great idea in theory. But in real rough areas they'd be slaughtered.

Agreed. They'd need to be "big heffers of man meat with Bruce Lee skills to back it up" all carrying weapons, as they'll be seen as targets.

Dudess

Scaremongering tbh - reminds me in no small way of the AH "let's try and make Ireland out to be this terrifying borderline war zone on the basis of a few isolated incidents" approach.

You just cannot compare an Irish city with New York pre Giuliani.

Podman

Dudess wrote: »

Scaremongering tbh - reminds me in no small way of the AH "let's try and make Ireland out to be this terrifying borderline war zone on the basis of a few isolated incidents" approach.

You just cannot compare an Irish city with New York pre Giuliani.

Nobody mentioned a "terrifying borderline war zone" ffs

I'm not comparing anything either. Who is to say that the GA didn't contribute to New York security for the Giuliani years?
There is a need for extra security, or there isn't, it's that simple. And in the end, it's all just people's opinions.

The vote is 8:8 at the moment, we have only heard from "no" voters so far.

chompy

chompy wrote: »

The vote is 8:8 at the moment, we have only heard from "no" voters so far.

And what does that tell you?

Podman

10:8 in favour, still only heard from "no" voters.

Very subtle *Bump*. I take it the "no" comments weren't enough?

Joey the lips

Threads like this prove one thing. That our police force has not inspired the amount of confidence in it that it should. We are a country of 4 million. our largest city contains 1 million. We contain what large towns contain in america.

I think a reserve police force or a core of part time police operating the weekendeds. Thur-sun would be of far more benefit.


That and the fact I dont want to meet a man in black with a pair of sunglasses trying to convince me he is going to look after me,.

Joey the lips

Joey the lips wrote: »

Threads like this prove one thing. That our police force has not inspired the amount of confidence in it that it should. We are a country of 4 million. our largest city contains 1 million. We contain what large towns contain in america.

I think a reserve police force or a core of part time police operating the weekendeds. Thur-sun would be of far more benefit.


That and the fact I dont want to meet a man in black with a pair of sunglasses trying to convince me he is going to look after me,.

The problem is not with the police force itself. They do a rather good job with a few exceptions. The problem is with the revolving door policy to our justice system.

It wouldn't matter if we had a 5:1 ratio of police to citizens.. it would still have serious problems because of the lack of a viable system to process the people who are arrested for committing crime in this country

Threads like this just show that people aren't willing to do the hard thing. To fix the justice system. Why is that hard? Cause it would take a rather long time to do properly (stages), and they might have to give up some of this PC rubbish (Which people seem to cling to these days)..

Joey the lips

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem is not with the police force itself. They do a rather good job with a few exceptions. The problem is with the revolving door policy to our justice system.

It wouldn't matter if we had a 5:1 ratio of police to citizens.. it would still have serious problems because of the lack of a viable system to process the people who are arrested for committing crime in this country

Yes i would agree with that. Perhaps I just see the police as not careing but as you say if the system they are against is wrong its difficult.

Joey the lips

Joey the lips wrote: »

Yes i would agree with that. Perhaps I just see the police as not careing but as you say if the system they are against is wrong its difficult.

Difficult? This is one of the problems I see with many citizens perspective of the situation. Difficult? How can any Law enforcement group do their work if there is no effective system in place to take the very people they arrest, not just remove them from the streets, but to re-educate them into society as normal citizens?? Instead, they arrest someone and they're criticized for putting more strain on an already over extended prison system. We have prisoners being released from prison, not so much for good behavior but rather to free up space for someone worse... (Not that the released person is particularly trustworthy)

And I know if I was in that situation I would feel kinda threatened... If the very people I have arrested, collected a case against, witnessed in court, sent off to prison, and then they came back well before they should, don't you think Gardai might feel a little threatened (personally), and betrayed?

This situation isn't difficult for the Gardai... Its impossible. Unless people just want the situation to continue with the Gardai as the constant scapegoats? A bit like our Governments... As long as we don't change the system, we can continue blaming the politicians for everything.. :rolleyes:

Joey the lips

Deleted User wrote: »

Difficult? This is one of the problems I see with many citizens perspective of the situation. Difficult? How can any Law enforcement group do their work if there is no effective system in place to take the very people they arrest, not just remove them from the streets, but to re-educate them into society as normal citizens?? Instead, they arrest someone and they're criticized for putting more strain on an already over extended prison system. We have prisoners being released from prison, not so much for good behavior but rather to free up space for someone worse... (Not that the released person is particularly trustworthy)

And I know if I was in that situation I would feel kinda threatened... If the very people I have arrested, collected a case against, witnessed in court, sent off to prison, and then they came back well before they should, don't you think Gardai might feel a little threatened (personally), and betrayed?

This situation isn't difficult for the Gardai... Its impossible. Unless people just want the situation to continue with the Gardai as the constant scapegoats? A bit like our Governments... As long as we don't change the system, we can continue blaming the politicians for everything.. :rolleyes:

Hold on a minute dont start physco analysis. I did not mean difficult in this perspective and I did not ask for a dictionary explination of difficult. I agreed with you. You do this constantly in the prostitution tread. I am not going there again.