Should these people be made pay the costs of their rescue

Reg'stoy

The headline about them wearing tracksuits and trainers (runners) grabbed my attention. Surely these idiots should be made pay some if not all of the costs involved.

Have we the where with all in this country to recover such costs, I know think we pay a charge here if we call out the fire service.

The above case reminds me of the two guys who got stuck in the Wicklow hills earlier this year or last. They 'thought' they could make a journey where common sense clearly said "Hang on let's go the long way round". Were these two encourged to make some recompence to the agencies who rescued them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/8428656.stm

Delta Kilo

Reg'stoy wrote: »

The above case reminds me of the two guys who got stuck in the Wicklow hills earlier this year or last. They 'thought' they could make a journey where common sense clearly said "Hang on let's go the long way round".

If you are talking about the case where those guys got trapped in the snow then that is not entirely accurate. One of the guys is actually the head of mountaineering Ireland. What happened was their map blew away in the wind. It was an accident and that is what mountain rescue are there for. He still gets abuse about that to this day!

A friend of mine had to be rescued from a mountain at some stage. He is a very experienced climber and hiker. He has since joined mountain rescue in order to "give back". So it's sort of a swings and roundabouts situation with mountain rescue.

Fire brigade is slightly different. In mountain rescue the volunteers are all very keen climbers and love what they do. That is why they try and help other people who come into difficulty because they know they may need it themselves one day. Its not like fire-fighters like fighting fires or anything and they do get remunerated for it.

You will always get the few idiots who don't know what they are doing like the guys in the link. Just 3 weeks ago I met a guy coming down carrauntoohil (he was going up), it was after 4, he had jeans, a t-shirt and a poor jacket. We tried to convince him not to go up.

But this isn't a reason to just let people die in the mountains and stand back and have an "I told you so" attitude. People who end up in these situations don't have a choice but to contact mountain rescue. If they had to pay then they probably wouldn't call, which is not what is wanted.

I know times are tough, but at the end of the day peoples lives have to be looked after.

Paulzx

People should not be billed for the use of any emergency services including the fire service.

Where do you draw the line at punishing stupidity? Who classifies whether a person should be billed or not?

Emergency services are provided by the state out of tax payers funds or by volunteer organisations who's ethos is to help no matter how the situation occurs.

I have no issue with someone getting a good bollocking for getting themselves into an avoidable situation but charges are immoral.


I can assure you that the people who cause the most unnecassery callouts for Emergency Services are the very ones who it would be impossible to get money from.

Bosco boy

People should be billed, I know certain people who call an ambulace when they have to go to A & E because they feel they will not have to que if they arrive by ambulance even for very minor stuff, ambulance personnel may verify this. A good hefty bill is the only answer. Resources are scarce now in most emergency services and bills should be issued (I think they are in a lot of cases in the main services), the gardai being the exception they can prosecute you in some senarios, e.g endangerment, wasting police time if they are applicable. many emergency services are totaly abused and taken for granted.

Zambia

No-one should have to pay to be rescued. However should you profit by the rescue then from these funds the rescue should be paid in full or part thereof that the funds would cover.

Paulzx

Bosco boy wrote: »

People should be billed, I know certain people who call an ambulace when they have to go to A & E because they feel they will not have to que if they arrive by ambulance even for very minor stuff, .

Biggest myth in the world and soon evaporates after a 15 hour wait in the waiting room with the rest of the population.

You will not be seen quicker coming in by ambulance. In fact, all you wiill get is a bollocking from the nurse (and boy can they bollock) and get fecked into the waiting room.

Charges for Emergency Services are wrong. End of. They will not stop this type of waster and will only make genuine people think twice about calling.

Bosco boy

Paulzx wrote: »

Biggest myth in the world and soon evaporates after a 15 hour wait in the waiting room with the rest of the population.

You will not be seen quicker coming in by ambulance. In fact, all you wiill get is a bollocking from the nurse (and boy can they bollock) and get fecked into the waiting room.

Charges for Emergency Services are wrong. End of. They will not stop this type of waster and will only make genuine people think twice about calling.

I am well aware that you wont be seen quicker, but certain people believe differently, if someone genuinely needs and emergency service they will call for it regardless. If they want to act the mick they should pay for the pleasure

maglite

Anyone who has done one of the more touristy walk here will see the utter stupidity displayed by many many people. Recently on Carrantouhill, us with the full bags of gear and all the bulk that entails looking at people going up in shorts and runners with no coats.

However stupidity comes in layers. I've been close to needing a full call out for myself after snapping a leg jumping off a cliff into the sea. Serious on one level but total stupidity on most other levels.

I have called out the coast guard for others who were kitted but needed help. As you saw with the lads on Lug? you can have all the kit and knowledge in the world and still get cough out. We really cant have a scenario where we close the hills when it gets too cold. NGA might correct me here but the Seaking cost 2500 an hour? thats an expensive hand, you might get people who would start putting off the rescue thinking they can get out on their own steam.

So no I dont think that people should have to pay for the call out. A stern talking to should suffice if they are idiots. Besides the sheer embarrassment will suffice for most of us.

There are a good few MR lads here and I'm sure they will say they have no problem going after people.

civdef

Paulzx wrote: »

I can assure you that the people who cause the most unnecassery callouts for Emergency Services are the very ones who it would be impossible to get money from.

Most definitely.

mcguiver

must not comment, must not comment.... doh too late!!!

Pay costs?? and a huge fine on top!!!
Each one of these "rescues" puts the rescuers at risk, not to mention taking them away from being available for real rescues. The only reason for a rescue should be illness/injury.

In Ireland you bring basic gear, if you get lost stay put fo the night, walk off in the morning. We live on a tiny island, you'll see a light road or pylons= life.

I've been involved in a few rescues, and as a frequent mountain walker/rockclimber I see this stupidity on a regular basis.
"map blew away?" map, in cover, carried around your neck...thats how I was always trained to do it, basic stuff.
Sleeping bag, bivvy bag, change of clothes and basic food and water.
(I've got fogged in a few times, -20 sleeping bag, goretex cover and sleep like a baby.)

Last moron(s) I met on Lug with light fading and rain coming down, had no gear, a child in buggy, walking uphill, and stopped and asked me was this the way DOWN to the carpark.

Theres no such thing as bad weather... theres just wrong clothes!!

Terrontress

To be honest, my feeling is that every second counts when it comes to summoning the Emergency Services. Putting a charge in place will make people think whether they want to lose €€€ not whether an emergency call is warranted. I had to phone an ambulance recently for a courier knocked off his bike by a pedestrian. He went in to the road head first and didn't move for a minute. I was on to the ambulance right away. He ultimately got up and just had a cut face so did not need treatment. I was still on the phone to the ambulance and was able to cancel it. My thought was that seconds count in saving lives and I am not qualified to judge.

What if the ambulance had charged me as he was actually ok?

What if he had been seriously injured and I didn't call the ambulance in case they did?

jhegarty

Reason why it should never be charged.

"I won't call 999 , I can't afford it."

sunnyjim

Bosco boy wrote: »

I am well aware that you wont be seen quicker, but certain people believe differently, if someone genuinely needs and emergency service they will call for it regardless. If they want to act the mick they should pay for the pleasure

A mates mam fell today on the ice in her garden and broke her wrist. They called for an ambulance ffs. What ever happened to standing up and walking to your car?

cafecolour

I remember reading an article a couple months back on the similar problems they've been having in the states (nicknamed 'Yuppie 911'):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33470581/ns/us_news-life/

You actually get charged for an ambulance ride in the US, but I don't think you charged for wilderness rescue.

Traumadoc

The 100 euro charge in A+E is an example of how charging will make no difference to emergency call outs.

The only people it affects are the "middle earners" as the poor get it free and the rich can afford it.

There is no evidence it has changed or decreased the numbers attending.

Mr. Presentable

"His map blew away". Hilarious

However, if you are going exploring on a mountain/sea etc in winter/storms etc you should have insurance to cover rescue costs. Otherwise, yes, it should come out of your pocket.

Seriously, why should the cowardly stay-at-home tax payer fund some gobdaw's rescue when the birds in the trees knew it was madness to go out in the first place?

Mr. Presentable

Terrontress wrote: »

To be honest, my feeling is that every second counts when it comes to summoning the Emergency Services. Putting a charge in place will make people think whether they want to lose €€€ not whether an emergency call is warranted. I had to phone an ambulance recently for a courier knocked off his bike by a pedestrian. He went in to the road head first and didn't move for a minute. I was on to the ambulance right away. He ultimately got up and just had a cut face so did not need treatment. I was still on the phone to the ambulance and was able to cancel it. My thought was that seconds count in saving lives and I am not qualified to judge.

What if the ambulance had charged me as he was actually ok?

What if he had been seriously injured and I didn't call the ambulance in case they did?

What? You'd let your friend die for the sake of €100.00? I for one am glad I have friends who'd not consider the cost.....

Mr. Presentable

maglite wrote: »

Anyone who has done one of the more touristy walk here will see the utter stupidity displayed by many many people. Recently on Carrantouhill, us with the full bags of gear and all the bulk that entails looking at people going up in shorts and runners with no coats.

However stupidity comes in layers. I've been close to needing a full call out for myself after snapping a leg jumping off a cliff into the sea. Serious on one level but total stupidity on most other levels.

I have called out the coast guard for others who were kitted but needed help. As you saw with the lads on Lug? you can have all the kit and knowledge in the world and still get cough out. We really cant have a scenario where we close the hills when it gets too cold. NGA might correct me here but the Seaking cost 2500 an hour? thats an expensive hand, you might get people who would start putting off the rescue thinking they can get out on their own steam.
So no I dont think that people should have to pay for the call out. A stern talking to should suffice if they are idiots. Besides the sheer embarrassment will suffice for most of us.

There are a good few MR lads here and I'm sure they will say they have no problem going after people.

Or maybe, just maybe, you'd have people consider the conditions before they went out. Hmm?

Terrontress

nipplenuts wrote: »

What? You'd let your friend die for the sake of €100.00? I for one am glad I have friends who'd not consider the cost.....

He wasn't my friend! Just some courier going along the road on a bicycle. All I'm saying is that I got onto 999 immediately as every second counts. If I thought there was to be a charge levied I might not have been so quick. Maybe you are the sort of person who would only offer assistance to a friend but in the same situation hundreds of times, I'd always stop and try to help, even though the victim is unknown to me.

deadwood

Terrontress wrote: »

He wasn't my friend! Just some courier going along the road on a bicycle. All I'm saying is that I got onto 999 immediately as every second counts. If I thought there was to be a charge levied I might not have been so quick. Maybe you are the sort of person who would only offer assistance to a friend but in the same situation hundreds of times, I'd always stop and try to help, even though the victim is unknown to me.

Why would they charge you?

The fire services don't send the caller the bill, as far as I know, they send it the householder.

It would be sad if people genuinely felt reluctant to call 999 if they were afraid of being charged for it, though.

I've no doubt, if such a system was introduced here, it would be only the wealthy would pay (i.e. workers!) so we'll pick up the tab for the slackers . . . . again.

Terrontress

deadwood wrote: »

Why would they charge you?

The fire services don't send the caller the bill, as far as I know, they send it the householder.

It would be sad if people genuinely felt reluctant to call 999 if they were afraid of being charged for it, though.

I've no doubt, if such a system was introduced here, it would be only the wealthy would pay (i.e. workers!) so we'll pick up the tab for the slackers . . . . again.

All I am trying to say is that a financial element added to a 999 call would lead to people delaying the call, resulting in deaths which ES will have to deal with anyway and the person they should send the bill with will be unable to pay it due to being deceased.

The fire brigade charges are an utter disgrace and I can see people staying in a property to try to put a fire out instead of getting the FB out. Talk about kicking someone when they are down! Your house has been burnt out. Now here's a nice bill for you to settle before you think abou before you start to piece your life back together.

SC024

I think people should be charged for mountain /hill rescue etc.etc. for the simple reason that they chose to climb those hills, its an entirely optional passtime, it's only fair that they pay for it...

Traumadoc

Driving a car is optional. Nearly everything we do is optional!

If you charge, people will try to save themselves eg walk down the mountain on a broken ankle.

Run_to_da_hills

It should be up to the discretion of the emergency services on how people should be charged. People should definitely be charged more for idiocy like not carrying the proper emergency equipment / flairs erc with them if they are out sailing or not informing people of before they go hiking.

searescue

I believe, with the way things are, if people are aware of a charge for e.g calling an ambulance for someone in need of medical attention, they may be turned off.

They may put the person in the back of the car and decide to take them to hospital themselves. You then have the problem of:

• A panicking driver.
• An injured person in the back not receiving basic first air.
• You could have traffic problems en-route and as you have not called an ambulance you have no priority through traffic (lights/sirens etc.)

I could go on but to cut it all short...ring the ambulance...for everyone's benefit.

Regards,
SR

Thoie

searescue wrote: »

They may put the person in the back of the car and decide to take them to hospital themselves. You then have the problem of:

• A panicking driver.
• An injured person in the back not receiving basic first air.
• You could have traffic problems en-route and as you have not called an ambulance you have no priority through traffic (lights/sirens etc.)

I could go on but to cut it all short...ring the ambulance...for everyone's benefit.

Regards,
SR

If someone is having a heart attack, or is choking, or many things like that - absolutely, call an ambulance. If I've sprained my wrist, or my friend has broken an ankle, or my mother has cut her finger - we can drive, or get a taxi. The extra 5-10 minutes waiting at traffic lights won't kill the patient.

searescue

Thoie wrote: »

If someone is having a heart attack, or is choking, or many things like that - absolutely, call an ambulance. If I've sprained my wrist, or my friend has broken an ankle, or my mother has cut her finger - we can drive, or get a taxi. The extra 5-10 minutes waiting at traffic lights won't kill the patient.

Oh absoloutely...unless they have difficulty moving or are complaining of back or neck problems and it's that small (sprain etc.) and if you're comfortable driving, by all means, do.

SR

hmmm

nipplenuts wrote: »

"His map blew away". Hilarious

However, if you are going exploring on a mountain/sea etc in winter/storms etc you should have insurance to cover rescue costs. Otherwise, yes, it should come out of your pocket.

In many parts of the world a rescue is invoiced and most walking/mountaineering club members pay a relatively small insurance premium to cover the cost. I think this would help to discourage those who venture into our mountains utterly underequipped but not affect the well prepared.

Our mountain rescue and helicopter teams are excellent, and modern communications make them relatively easy to contact. If people are losing the fear of freezing to death when something goes wrong they should be made to fear the financial costs of going out underprepared.

Hooch

While were at it.....can I charge for going to Traffic Accidents???

mikemac

Thoie wrote: »

If someone is having a heart attack, or is choking, or many things like that - absolutely, call an ambulance. If I've sprained my wrist, or my friend has broken an ankle, or my mother has cut her finger - we can drive, or get a taxi. The extra 5-10 minutes waiting at traffic lights won't kill the patient.

Maybe but not everyone drives. I don't drive and none of my housemates drive. I don't know any of my neighbours either realy though I'm sure they'd help out
So if I slip at the busstop tomorrow morning and break an ankle I'll be calling for an ambulance as I struggle to my feet

Thoie

mikemac wrote: »

Maybe but not everyone drives. I don't drive and none of my housemates drive. I don't know any of my neighbours either realy though I'm sure they'd help out
So if I slip at the busstop tomorrow morning and break an ankle I'll be calling for an ambulance as I struggle to my feet

Just out of curiousity, but why not a taxi if it's a simple break?

Trojan911

Thoie wrote: »

Just out of curiousity, but why not a taxi if it's a simple break?

I have known of two cab drivers that won't convey to A&E if there is a suspected/broken bone.

Their fear is if they have a collision or have to break hard on route they may aggravate the injury leaving themselves open to a civil action, even though they are covered by business insurance. Right or wrong, I see their point.

I agree with some posters in that those who don't pay for the ambulance service will be the first to call for one. They should be made pay if it is deemed after that an ambulance was not needed.

As for the OP, yes, people should be made pay if they are ill prepared to go climbing hills/mountains etc.

It's simple, do your homework before leaving to do something one would not be ordinarily doing.

Terrontress

I heard a crazy story a while back where some girls in England got stuck in a drain and their reaction was to put their predicament on Facebook to ask someone to come and help. The person who saw it called 999 and the fire and rescue people chastised them for using their phone to do facebook instead of calling the professionals.

sunnyjim

nipplenuts wrote: »

"His map blew away". Hilarious

One day I took the car for a spin round the Burren. At one stage when I was driving, I realised I was lost and reached for my trusting OS map, only to realise that I had left it on the bonnet of my car right before I reversed out of my last parking spot.

Had to try very ****ing hard to remember my way back to that church - but at least my trusty OS was still there If I had had to call out Mountain Rescue, I'd be using that lads excuse too :D

TheNog

Terrontress wrote: »

I heard a crazy story a while back where some girls in England got stuck in a drain and their reaction was to put their predicament on Facebook to ask someone to come and help. The person who saw it called 999 and the fire and rescue people chastised them for using their phone to do facebook instead of calling the professionals.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

Terrontress

TheNog wrote: »

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein

sorry, they were Australians. Still ridiculous though.
www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/09/07/2678945.htm

BeardyGit

Delta Kilo wrote: »

If you are talking about the case where those guys got trapped in the snow then that is not entirely accurate. One of the guys is actually the head of mountaineering Ireland. What happened was their map blew away in the wind. It was an accident and that is what mountain rescue are there for. He still gets abuse about that to this day!

Missed this until tonight. Correction for you on something you've stated above - Neither Keith McDonnell or Pat Doyle are the head of Mountaineering Ireland (formerly the MCI - www.mountaineeringireland.ie), nor to the best of my knowledge are they directly involved in any of its workings. Keith runs a company called Extreme Ireland (www.extremeireland.ie), leading walking groups into the Wicklow mountains, and I believe Pat does a bit of work for him there.

deadwood

nice guy always wrote: »

While were at it.....can I charge for going to Traffic Accidents???

I'd pay to see a Traffic Corpse investigate an accident!

Hooch

deadwood wrote: »

I'd pay to see a Traffic Corpse investigate an accident!

Harsh....very harsh!!!

maglite

deadwood wrote: »

I'd pay to see a Traffic Corpse investigate an accident!

Freudian slip?

deadwood

maglite wrote: »

Freudian slip?

No, it was a faux poo.

Hooch

maglite wrote: »

Freudian slip?

deadwood wrote: »

No, it was a faux poo.

Banned both of ye!!! Mah ha ha ha......now ahem...back on topic

maglite

deadwood wrote: »

No, it was a faux poo.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=faux-poo ????

AN old

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And actually in an attempt to remember the topic.. Are we talking about Darwin award candidate in tracksuits or the ones in Goretex?