Who built the pyramids?

Bodhisopha

I know such a seemingly silly question can be of annoyance to those in the know but having googled frantically i am met with conflicting theories most of which come from sources with little credibility.

What is the current prevailing consensus amongst archaelogical experts; the scientific viewpoint?


If anybody could provide a link to a credible website offering "official" answers (or theories) to this and other archaelogical queries that would be great.

Thanks!

the iceman come

they werent built by humans accept it.:D

Wibbs

As a nation the Egyptians did. The architect Imhotep built the first one, a stepped pyramid for Pharoah Djoser. They seem to have been extensions of earlier square tombs. Imhotep put another square section on top and then smaller and smaller ones again. Et viola you get a stepped pyramid.


Afterwards the added the stone cladding to make it a true pyramid.

They made a few screwups along the way though. There's one pyramid where they started at one angle, realised it was too steep and structurally dodgy and changed the angle.

dr gonzo

Apparently they've found evidence to suggest that unlike the popular image the workers building the great pyramids would have actually been well looked after and paid for their services, they may even have received certain benefits similar to the modern day. I cant verify any of this though so i could be wrong.

Bodhisopha

Thanks Wibbs, good info.

I have heard that too Gonzo.

My next question is; i have heard it say those pyramids could not be made today, as if there was some sort of ancient wisdom behind them. The rationalist in me says this is ridiculous, surely they were just the product of a very long project and a ridiculous amount of manpower.

An explanation or a link explaining just how they were made, especially the pyramids of Giza would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Wibbs

There are all sorts of theories on it from what Ive read. Sadly there are no records from the time. Herodotus mentioned them a fair bit in his writings but omitted the "How to build a dirty great pyramid. From scratch. For Dummies"(from the Greek). Then again he was 1000's of years too late.

I think we forget how resourceful we can be as humans. We tend to think of people like that as primitives, even in a nice way, so you get the "they came from mars you know" notions.

Where there's a will theres a way. Usually a simple enough way too. Many have commented how precise they are and how level. Well to get a perfectly level foundation all you need do is build a dam around the area. Fill it with water and then drain the water in increments. Flatten the bits that stick up above the water and when it's all drained out, voila perfectly flat foundation. Doesn't need lasers or JCBs. Just brains and manpower.

Much has been written about ramps to bring the huge stones up and there has been evidence found of vast ramps so that seems plausible.

The cutting of the stone itself must have been very labour intensive. For a start they were bronze age types so the tools they used would have needed constant sharpening by specialised sharpening bods.

Transport of the blocks to the site would be "simple" enough. The Nile basically. The egyptians were the first we know of to build multiplanked big boats. Fascinating subject in of itself. they lashed the planks together with papyrus rope. No nails. Again not what we might do now, but bloody ingenious buggers it has to be said.

Because the nile rose and fertilised the land once a year, the farmers had a fair amount of free time in between harvests, so there was an excess of labour. Add in a god cult of the Pharaoh and a populace who saw him as a god who made the fertile waters rise and building such an edifice for the community makes sense. He was the focus of this, but it was a community thing it seems. Even the title Pharaoh actually means great house or great house where god is.

dr gonzo made a good point, they werent slaves by the looks of things. There have been graveyards for the workers found and they were well looked after and had high class medical attention. Setting of bones, treatment of injuries, trepanning etc.

The other thing I think we tend to forget is that genius and individual genius didnt start with Greece, Rome and what followed. Because they have names and writings it's easy to relate to them, but there were seriously high powered genius types before. There had to be. The odds alone would suggest that. The bloke I mentioned before, Imhotep was a guy who would have given leonardo a run for his money. Indeed he was far more practical and had more of an actual impact than Leo. Architect and the founder of medicine. The egyptians rated him too and elevated him to godhood. Its a pity we dont have more of his work to refer to. Ditto we dont have his tomb. The people who built newgrange and stonehenge and the like, probably had a single man or woman who kicked this off. The carvings in such places may have come from the same hand. The chap or chappess who came up with writing first. The first who painted on a cave wall etc. We're lucky we know Imhotep, but sadly know those other people only by their works.

eman66

It's mind boggling. 2,300,000 2.5 ton perfectly carved stones for the great pyramid. Didn't they find the mine quite a distance away? I wonder how much weight their boats could carry. At 10 tons (figure plucked out of the air), 4 stones, means 575,000 trips. I'm guessing very large boats could have the required stability.

And placement of the stones with such accuracy over such a large area. "Here Joe, catch this one!"

Could the carving of the granite stones actually be done with copper tools?

Facinating.

the iceman come

eman66 wrote: »

It's mind boggling. 2,300,000 2.5 ton perfectly carved stones for the great pyramid. Didn't they find the mine quite a distance away? I wonder how much weight their boats could carry. At 10 tons (figure plucked out of the air), 4 stones, means 575,000 trips. I'm guessing very large boats could have the required stability.

And placement of the stones with such accuracy over such a large area. "Here Joe, catch this one!"

Could the carving of the granite stones actually be done with copper tools?

Facinating.

I also dont know how they could have carved out a tomb or the many vases found in the pyramids using the tools of the age,I mean copper dosent cut through granite? It is also pretty amazing to think that with all their supposed knowledge that they hadnt yet invented the wheel! would have made things a whole lot easier I would say.

Wibbs

the iceman come wrote: »

I also dont know how they could have carved out a tomb or the many vases found in the pyramids using the tools of the age,I mean copper dosent cut through granite?

It will but bloody slowly, plus they would have used stone tools too.

It is also pretty amazing to think that with all their supposed knowledge that they hadnt yet invented the wheel! would have made things a whole lot easier I would say.

Eh I think they had, or at least understood the principle. I think you're thinking of the aztecs. Though the wieght involved would have made wheels of the time redundant. They used sledges anyway. Maybe logs too. A sledge while having a lot of friction, also has the advantage it wont run away from you.

eman66 wrote:

It's mind boggling.

Yes it is in a big way. Just goes to show what can be done by not that many when the will is there. Look at Athens at it's height. 40 50,000 people? And look what they did. 50,000 people is what yo get at a big GAA/Soccer match. Closer to now. Man on the moon and the Apollo project. Your mobile phone has more computational power than the entire of NASA at the time. You probably have a pencil in your gaff. Look what Raphael or Michelangelo could do with "just" a pencil. We forget the capacity we all have to some degree if the focus is there.

2,300,000 2.5 ton perfectly carved stones for the great pyramid. Didn't they find the mine quite a distance away? I wonder how much weight their boats could carry. At 10 tons (figure plucked out of the air), 4 stones, means 575,000 trips. I'm guessing very large boats could have the required stability.

Well they had big boats, but AFAIR the quarry wasn't that far away. From the Giza complex anyway.

Look at newgrange closer to home. Never mind the big stuff and moving that, the white cobbles came from either wicklow or dundalk IIRC. Big round trip in those days and that's 500 yrs before any of the pyramids. Look at stonehenge. The saracen stones came form wales IIRC. Biiig journey. The easter island moai. Serious graft. Look at the south american lads. Aztecs, incas etc. Huuuuuge stones transported a long way and then erected(and they only had the wheel on kids toys?? mad). Look at Machu Picchu , the damn thing is on top of a mountain. Clearly where there's a will theres a way and that's been repeated by many many so called primitive cultures.

the iceman come

Wibbs wrote: »

It will but bloody slowly, plus they would have used stone tools too. Eh I think they had, or at least understood the principle. I think you're thinking of the aztecs. Though the wieght involved would have made wheels of the time redundant. They used sledges anyway. Maybe logs too. A sledge while having a lot of friction, also has the advantage it wont run away from you.


Yes it is in a big way. Just goes to show what can be done by not that many when the will is there. Look at Athens at it's height. 40 50,000 people? And look what they did. 50,000 people is what yo get at a big GAA/Soccer match. Closer to now. Man on the moon and the Apollo project. Your mobile phone has more computational power than the entire of NASA at the time. You probably have a pencil in your gaff. Look what Raphael or Michelangelo could do with "just" a pencil. We forget the capacity we all have to some degree if the focus is there. Well they had big boats, but AFAIR the quarry wasn't that far away. From the Giza complex anyway.

Look at newgrange closer to home. Never mind the big stuff and moving that, the white cobbles came from either wicklow or dundalk IIRC. Big round trip in those days and that's 500 yrs before any of the pyramids. Look at stonehenge. The saracen stones came form wales IIRC. Biiig journey. The easter island moai. Serious graft. Look at the south american lads. Aztecs, incas etc. Huuuuuge stones transported a long way and then erected(and they only had the wheel on kids toys?? mad). Look at Machu Picchu , the damn thing is on top of a mountain. Clearly where there's a will theres a way and that's been repeated by many many so called primitive cultures.

On the MACHU PICCHU point,wasnt there sand found up there possibly indicating that it had once been at sea level? and through some huge cataclysm it rose up? or am I thinking of something else? Good info BTW.

Wibbs

Well maybe it was at sea level or under it millions of years ago, but not in the 1500's(IIRC). Its not that old. I suppose we look at buildings like that and others and scratch our heads and go "how the... did they do that? Back then?". So then we look for other explanations, aliens, land upheaval and the like to explain it away. As I say we forget how incredibly resourceful we can be when we put our minds to it.

Bodhisopha

fascinating stuff. Thanks!

Capt'n Midnight

When building the pyramids the Egyptians had breweries and bakeries on site they used stale bread to brew the beer.


A French lad has suggested the rather obvious idea that the ramp is inside the pyramid. Though of course it would be on the outside when they were building it until they put on the outer layer of stones. Nice hypothsis and is provable.

Azelfafage

People built the Pyramids.

There is no limit to human ingenuity.


.

wasper

the iceman come wrote: »

I also dont know how they could have carved out a tomb or the many vases found in the pyramids using the tools of the age,I mean copper dosent cut through granite? It is also pretty amazing to think that with all their supposed knowledge that they hadnt yet invented the wheel! would have made things a whole lot easier I would say.

You are disrespecting the Egyptians.

the iceman come

wasper wrote: »

You are disrespecting the Egyptians.

No I dont think so,all in all many things just dont make a lot of sense,call me PyramidIdiot if you want,but weighing up all the evidence,I think there is alot more mystery to the construction of these Giants than we know of for certain,and really I just dont see how copper and stone or Iron cut through Granite, the ultra smooth finish on these vases and other thing including coffins,could not be acheived without a extremely high RPM ,this has been confirmed by various experts within the industry that manufactures and uses diamond tipped laser cutting devices. You see what we have are lots of Egyptologists giving there view when what we need are experts from all different fields of study to work together,the fact is I really dont think we have all the answers nor am I suggesting they were built by little green men,but there is a definite possibility that some type of lost technology was at work.

Wibbs

Well you can polish stones with other stones. It just takes and awfully long time. Most of the structure is limestone, which can be cut with copper tools and they've found the tools. Copper/bronze is strong enough, it just doesnt hold it's edge for long so needs constant sharpening.

The granite could have been roughly shaped at first using nothng more complex than staves of wood driven into cracks and then adding water. The wood swells and pops the block from the underlying matrix. Then using harder stone picks to dress the block. finally grinding the stones into the final smooth shape using water and grind stones. Long winded yes. Doable though. They carved black granite into statues so they had long experience of the material.

Look at the easter island stone heads. Tough volcanic rock chipped and picked out of the living rock over time. They can see how they did this as there are examples of ones in the quarry at different stages of construction.

Actually they have obelisks in egypt in similar stages of construction and I think they're granite too?

There's another theory that fits into your idea of lost tech though. That the pyramids were made from ancient concrete. http://www.geopolymer.org/archaeology/pyramids/are-pyramids-made-out-of-concrete-1 Possible. Nice idea anyway.

Capt'n Midnight

eman66 wrote: »

It's mind boggling. 2,300,000 2.5 ton perfectly carved stones for the great pyramid. Didn't they find the mine quite a distance away? I wonder how much weight their boats could carry.

2.5 tonnes means you need to displace only 2.5 cubic meters of water, 50cm by 2m x 2.5m - it's about the size of two King sized mattresses. Building reed boats to float down river is not all that difficult.

2.3 million blocks ?
20,000 people 20 years , 100 days per year = 40 million man days
and remember that only 4% of the blocks were in the top 1/3 of the pyramid so most of the weight and work was at the bottom.

And placement of the stones with such accuracy over such a large area. "Here Joe, catch this one!"

Could the carving of the granite stones actually be done with copper tools?

Facinating.

you also use granite power/dust as an abrasive to reduce the wear on the tools




People seem to forget that one of the reasons to build pyramids was to keep idle hands busy once the wheat had been planted there wasn't really a lot to do until harvest time. Growing rice would have been a lot more labour intensive over the full crop cycle.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/pyramid_builders_01.shtml

Effectively, it seems, the pyramid served both as a gigantic training project and - deliberately or not - as a source of 'Egyptianisation'. The workers who left their communities of maybe 50 or 100 people, to live in a town of 15,000 or more strangers, returned to the provinces with new skills, a wider outlook and a renewed sense of national unity that balanced the loss of loyalty to local traditions. The use of shifts of workers spread the burden and brought about a thorough redistribution of pharaoh's wealth in the form of rations.

Almost every family in Egypt was either directly or indirectly involved in pyramid building. The pyramid labourers were clearly not slaves. They may well have been the unwilling victims of the corvée or compulsory labour system, the system that allowed the pharaoh to compel his people to work for three or four month shifts on state projects.

Internal ramp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_techniques#Jean-Pierre_Houdin.27s_.22internal_ramp.22_hypothesis

Dr R H G Parry[3] has suggested a method for rolling the stones, using a cradle-like machine that had been excavated in various new kingdom temples. Four of those objects could be fitted around a block so it could be rolled easily. Experiments done by the Obayashi Corporation, with concrete blocks 0.8 m square by 1.6 m long and weighing 2.5 tons, showed how 18 men could drag the block over a 1-in-4 incline ramp, at a rate of 18 meters per minute.

18 men , 18 meters per minute up a 1 in 4 ?
so one 2.5 ton block moved one meter per minute per man


40 million man days is 2,000 million man minutes


Oh yeah as time goes on we find out that more and more of the ancient discoveries we've attributed to the Greeks were known by the Egyptians. And of course Alexander conquered them so by the time the Romans arrived the Greek Ptolomeys(SP) had been lots of inside info.

the iceman come

Hey Wibbs,

That is an extremely interesting link,thanks!

Doozie

This article was in the guardian yesterday and suggests the people who built the pyramids were paid workers, not slaves.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/11/great-pyramid-tombs-slaves-egypt