As a Gentleman...

dblennon

I was appalled @ what happened in Kerry today.

1. this should have been a huge victory for women i.e. decent sentence, good evidence, and a women standing up and getting this henious person off the streets.

2. Now its a shambles that will continue to keep the reporting rate in Ireland as low as it is.

3. The gall of the priest, to go on Newstalk this morning and defend his actions in the court he should have stayed a million miles away from this.

4. I can't understand the mentality of the action anyway and there is no excuse but it really has wound me up for some reason.

I'm just hoping that I would not be the kind of person who would either shake his hand as a friend / or tell the poor girl that she had ruined the guilty parties life.

I'm sure this is up elsewhere but do you guys agree with me?

Khannie

dblennon wrote: »

tell the poor girl that she had ruined the guilty parties life.

He ruined his own life. Prick.

I don't think you'll find many in here disagree with you.

CDfm

I think what the priest did was foolish and it became a public issue. I didn't hear the piece.

However, a priest or pastor looks after the spiritual needs of his church members so has to accept what they say.Just like in PI etc you cant say a person is lying or is a troll.

The priest cannot turn someone away.There is a religious precedent in the bible and the stoning with "let him without sin cast the first stone".

So a priests role in secular society is different. He was doing his job as he sees it and does not have an option.But taking it on the radio. Stupid.

dblennon

I have huge respect for the role of priests in society (although i am an ahiest).

But they are responsible for their actions, I disagree with a priest giving a character reference in court personally but thats his perogative.

but if you had heard his defence of the guy "the alledged offence" "from what I have seen he wouldn't hurt a fly" etc..

Dr Galen

funny i was going to start a thread on this this evening.

It's pretty bad form tbh. From what I hear there is CCTV evidence which shows the guy taking the girl out the back etc. She had marks and injuries which were apparently consistent with being dragged. All looks pretty water tight to me.

Whatever about the defence that she said yes, or that old chestnut "she was looking for it" there can be no excuse for the type of behaviour detailed.

As for the priest, well, CDFm has a point. His role is to attend to his flock. The character witness bit seems a bit much, but, if he was acting in truth well then he was/is doing what he feels is the right thing.

The main point for me is not the priest, as I feel his hands where somewhat tied, but the 50 odd people who came up and shook hands with and hugged the defendant. Do these people have no sense of justice? Have they no female family members themselves?

CDfm

dblennon wrote: »

I have huge respect for the role of priests in society (although i am an ahiest).

But they are responsible for their actions, I disagree with a priest giving a character reference in court personally but thats his perogative.

but if you had heard his defence of the guy "the alledged offence" "from what I have seen he wouldn't hurt a fly" etc..

Thats bad.This guy could be a TD yet.

I often wonder about character references as I am aware of one case where a teacher wouldn't come forward as a witness for the defense as she was afraid of the victims family.So if you are called as a witness/character witness you have a duty to tell what you know. Good or bad.

She told the legal team that if she appeared it would be as a hostile witness. Subsequently on appeal blah blah .....

Anyway, I have never been asked to give a person a character reference for court but have been a witness. You can only say what you know.

A stupid and ill informed decision to go on radio.

Will

Typical example of how backward and downright ignorant some parts of rural Ireland are. Seen it on twitter today, checked the article. Was pretty shocked and appalled.

The priest still obviously thinks he's the big cheese in the cracker factory doling out comments like that as if he was giving out the holy sacrament. I really can't believe it.

'Ah sure he is a nice guy, don't mind the rape...' is what it screams to me. Utterly shambolic.

Whether he is a nice guy or not is now irrelevant. He showed no remorse, no sadness, no apology, nothing for a crime he was convicted of. The woman, from the articles i've read seems to be the bad person in this in her local community for putting the guy (rightly) in jail. What a joke.

CDfm

Will wrote: »

Typical example of how backward and downright ignorant some parts of rural Ireland are. Seen it on twitter today, checked the article. Was pretty shocked and appalled.

I am fairly shocked too.

Small towns everywhere are like tribes.

Hellrazer

Will wrote: »

The priest still obviously thinks he's the big cheese in the cracker factory doling out comments like that as if he was giving out the holy sacrament. I really can't believe it.

'Ah sure he is a nice guy, don't mind the rape...' is what it screams to me. Utterly shambolic.

Hence the reason I gave up on organised religon a long long time ago.Its exactly the same as what happened with the whole catholic church and abusing of kids.Heard an interview today with somone and apparently the answer from the priest/bishop when abuse was reported was "Pray for the victim" when they knew the abuser.
After this scandal you can see that nothing has changed in Ireland in 2010.

jap gt

the girl in question came out of the courthouse and had a crowd of people ( mostly men and mostly related to him ) roar abuse her, like the poor girl hasnt been through enough, the prick should be castrated, end of

Dr Galen

are you sure about that?

from what I've heard, she stayed behind in the courtroom with the Gardai, and slipped out the side door of the courthouse

jap gt

yea its the story i heard today

BankMan

Disgusting story all round. Can't help feeling there's more to it than we're hearing though. Why were all the lads queueing up to shake his paw? Doesn't make sense.

994

BankMan wrote: »

Disgusting story all round. Can't help feeling there's more to it than we're hearing though. Why were all the lads queueing up to shake his paw? Doesn't make sense.

Presumably this was planned beforehand. I don't doubt that the guy was also from "a good family"

CDfm wrote:

The priest cannot turn someone away.There is a religious precedent in the bible and the stoning with "let him without sin cast the first stone".

Yeah, but that's rubbish as the RCC rarely concerns itself with the Gospels. And plenty of us are "without sin" with regards to carrying women into alleyways to make them suck us off...

Otis Driftwood

You dont have to be a gentleman to be shocked.

Is it any fcukin wonder things like date rape/sexual assault go largely unreported.
:mad:

eviltwin

It says a lot about the attitude of Irish men to sex crimes...I was sexually assaulted myself as a nine year old child. I made the mistake of taking a short cut home from school down a lane way and was attacked and subjected to something horrific.

I only told people 10 years later. The women were 100% supportive but many men, people I considered friends, would say "thats terrible but..."

I really do believe that a lot of men still think a drunk woman is fair game.

I have to hand it to the victim, she's a hero and one hell of a brave woman. I just hope she is able to get on with her life without having to put up with this kind of mentality from the locals.

CDfm

eviltwin wrote: »

It says a lot about the attitude of Irish men to sex crimes...I was sexually assaulted myself as a nine year old child. I made the mistake of taking a short cut home from school down a lane way and was attacked and subjected to something horrific.

I only told people 10 years later. The women were 100% supportive but many men, people I considered friends, would say "thats terrible but..."

I really do believe that a lot of men still think a drunk woman is fair game.

I have to hand it to the victim, she's a hero and one hell of a brave woman. I just hope she is able to get on with her life without having to put up with this kind of mentality from the locals.

POOR you ET. Noone desererves that.

I cant understand the minset that blames the victim.

trout

eviltwin wrote: »

It says a lot about the attitude of Irish men to sex crimes...

Without fail, any man I've spoken to about this is horrified at the carry-on.
Total condemnation of the crime and of the disgraceful attitudes displayed afterwards; the attitude of SOME locals, defies logic.

I've a friend who lives in the area, he'll be back home for Christmas ... no doubt this topic will feature.

That poor girl, my heart goes out to her.

eviltwin

Its a pretty open and shut case really but even so you still have people wondering if she didnt consent...just look at the 50 aholes who shook his hand

Now imagine she had been a mate of his or his girlfriend or someone who had been flirting with him or dated him in the past or the CCTV hadnt existed

In that case a lot of so called "gentlemen" would be wondering if there wasnt more to it than meets the eye.

994

CDfm wrote: »

POOR you ET. Noone desererves that.

I cant understand the minset that blames the victim.

Judith Herman:

"It is very tempting to take the side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks is that the bystander do nothing. He appeals to the universal desire to see, hear, and speak no evil. The victim, on the contrary, asks the bystander to share the burden of pain. The victim demands action, engagement, and remembering."

CDfm

eviltwin wrote: »

Its a pretty open and shut case really but even so you still have people wondering if she didnt consent...just look at the 50 aholes who shook his hand

Now imagine she had been a mate of his or his girlfriend or someone who had been flirting with him or dated him in the past or the CCTV hadnt existed

In that case a lot of so called "gentlemen" would be wondering if there wasnt more to it than meets the eye.

I was out at a dinner party last night and it was raised and because people didnt know about the CCTV thought there was more to it than met the eye. Some seeds of doubt and it blinded them to the actual crime.

994 wrote: »

Judith Herman:"It is very tempting to take the side of the perpetrator. All the perpetrator asks is that the bystander do nothing. He appeals to the universal desire to see, hear, and speak no evil. The victim, on the contrary, asks the bystander to share the burden of pain. The victim demands action, engagement, and remembering."

This was a bit more in that there was something intimadatory about the 50 people.

I often think that public opinion and staged events in Ireland really do influence the quality of the irish justice system.

Bottle_of_Smoke

eviltwin wrote: »

Now imagine she had been a mate of his or his girlfriend or someone who had been flirting with him or dated him in the past or the CCTV hadnt existed

In that case a lot of so called "gentlemen" would be wondering if there wasnt more to it than meets the eye.

Eh, yeah of course. Are you suggesting we believe everyone who makes an accusation of sexual assault/rape?

CDfm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Eh, yeah of course. Are you suggesting we believe everyone who makes an accusation of sexual assault/rape?

I think convictions should be made on the basis of evidence which seems to have been there. I havent followed the case.

There have been other high profile cases such as the Joe O'Reilly for instance where the evidence seemed not sufficient and convictions were made.

Here, I cant see any basis for a false allegation or media manipulation.

Bottle_of_Smoke

CDfm wrote: »

I think convictions should be made on the basis of evidence which seems to have been there. I havent followed the case.

There have been other high profile cases such as the Joe O'Reilly for instance where the evidence seemed not sufficient and convictions were made.

Here, I cant see any basis for a false allegation or media manipulation.

I know, but eviltwin was posing the scenario without CCTV evidence.

CDfm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I know, but eviltwin was posing the scenario without CCTV evidence.

I think its fairly horrible for victims to come forward - so I am with you on evidence but this was not the case here.

When I was growing up there were people you needed to be careful of and in general you knew who they were.

So allegations need to be investigated. You do have anecdotal and factual evidence that false allegations are not being prosecuted by the authorities so you should have balance.

False allegations should be prosecuted because sometimes accused are held in custody and loose carreers homes etc so malicious prosecution should be dealt with.

Tough I know but we have gone thru a period where dirty old men hid behind respectability and false allegations could be made without evidence to back them up like rape kits and the like. Now we have all that.It wont sort every situation but it would take the stigma and backwoodsness out of it.

SLUSK

Ireland is a country full of catholic people. What else do you expect from Catholics?

CDfm

SLUSK wrote: »

Ireland is a country full of catholic people. What else do you expect from Catholics?

There was nothing Catholic about what happened.

I dont know if anyone rembers the Pitcairn Island trials in around 2002.

Pitcairn was the settlement founded by the surviving mutineers from the Mutiny on the Bounty and some tahitan men and women.

Roll on to 2002 and the men were sexually abusing girls of 12-15 and were Seventh Day Advertiorists - fairly strict Christian types on the outside.

Lots of prosecutions but there was a shared cultural belief that men had this right and it was wrong to break ranks.

http://www.ageofconsent.com/pitcairn.htm

I am probably wrong but thats what the Listowel situation reminded me of that maybe this is something that people in Listowel think is normal. We dont molest and rape people that are drunk and incapable because its wrong.

So maybe Listowel has some growing up to do and maybe this display of handshakes by the gooid people of Listowel is a good thing.

Bottle_of_Smoke

CDfm wrote: »

I think its fairly horrible for victims to come forward - so I am with you on evidence but this was not the case here.

When I was growing up there were people you needed to be careful of and in general you knew who they were.

So allegations need to be investigated. You do have anecdotal and factual evidence that false allegations are not being prosecuted by the authorities so you should have balance.

False allegations should be prosecuted because sometimes accused are held in custody and loose carreers homes etc so malicious prosecution should be dealt with.

Tough I know but we have gone thru a period where dirty old men hid behind respectability and false allegations could be made without evidence to back them up like rape kits and the like. Now we have all that.It wont sort every situation but it would take the stigma and backwoodsness out of it.

Well yeah I completely agree what happened in Listowel was disgraceful. I was only responding to what eviltwin was saying about what would happen if the cctv evidence was absent.

CDfm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Well yeah I completely agree what happened in Listowel was disgraceful. I was only responding to what eviltwin was saying about what would happen if the cctv evidence was absent.

The people of Listowel know how to show off their best side.:rolleyes:



I get your point and you do need adequete safeguards to protect the innocent.

Maybe he will get a shorter sentence on appeal but the publicity means he will be well known when he arrives. Is that karma or what.

eviltwin

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Well yeah I completely agree what happened in Listowel was disgraceful. I was only responding to what eviltwin was saying about what would happen if the cctv evidence was absent.

My point about the CCTV is that it showed that this guy was guilty but even with such strong evidence there are still those who think he's innocent.

I'm just wondering if it hadn't been there what the outcome would have been...probably it would never have gotten to court and he would be free to do it again

Yes I appreciate that sometimes false accusations are made and that we have to take each case on its own merits but your initial response to me just proved what I was trying to say

If someone reports a breakin or a mugging or some other crime they are generally believed...when its a woman reporting a sex crime some people will always be more willing to take the side of the attacker..and then we wonder why these crimes are so under reported

Bottle_of_Smoke

eviltwin wrote: »

My point about the CCTV is that it showed that this guy was guilty but even with such strong evidence there are still those who think he's innocent.

I agreed with the first part of your post but it didn't appear that was your point when you said:

"Now imagine she had been a mate of his or his girlfriend or someone who had been flirting with him or dated him in the past or the CCTV hadnt existed"

That's the point I was responding to.

I'm just wondering if it hadn't been there what the outcome would have been...probably it would never have gotten to court and he would be free to do it again

It's horrific but that probably is true.

Yes I appreciate that sometimes false accusations are made and that we have to take each case on its own merits but your initial response to me just proved what I was trying to say

I hope what I said above explains I was only responding to a particular point in your post.

If someone reports a breakin or a mugging or some other crime they are generally believed...when its a woman reporting a sex crime some people will always be more willing to take the side of the attacker..and then we wonder why these crimes are so under reported

If someone's mugged or robbed its clear they were robbed. There's no issue of consent because no one ever consents to having their stuff taken away from them by a stranger. There's no basis to not believe them. Rape simply is a far more complicated crime from a legal point of view than burglary. I don't know what the answer is but I think we can all agree simply accepting every accusation would be a terrible idea

eviltwin

And my point was that without the cctv it seems a huge amount of people would just assume the girl was lying which says a lot for the way people view sex attacks.

Why jump to the conclusion the victim is lying? Is it that hard to believe men can be sick enough to force themselves on someone?

Joey the lips

CDfm wrote: »

Thats bad.This guy could be a TD yet.

.

Dont think you can be a TD with a prision record. Dont say Bobby sands I think this is when it was changed....:)

Anyway he is apealing.

I think the whole case is interesting. If you read it in a book you could only picture a scence from Deliverence.

Bottle_of_Smoke

eviltwin wrote: »

And my point was that without the cctv it seems a huge amount of people would just assume the girl was lying which says a lot for the way people view sex attacks.

Why jump to the conclusion the victim is lying? Is it that hard to believe men can be sick enough to force themselves on someone?

Slow down. No evidence doesn't mean the victim is lying. Just means we can't prove she's telling the truth. Without that we cannot convict the alleged attacker.

If there's a rape without evidence I'd think about what happened, I wouldn't believe either of the parties involved. To be honest I'd be wary of ever trusting the guy again but I wouldn't know if he's guilty or not. Just as I wouldn't know if the girl was telling the truth or not.

CDfm

Joey the lips wrote: »

Dont think you can be a TD with a prision record. Dont say Bobby sands I think this is when it was changed....:)

I meant the priest:)

Anyway he is apealing.

I think the whole case is interesting. If you read it in a book you could only picture a scence from Deliverence.

It is because the story is somehow lost under the publicity.

eviltwin

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Slow down. No evidence doesn't mean the victim is lying. Just means we can't prove she's telling the truth. Without that we cannot convict the alleged attacker.

If there's a rape without evidence I'd think about what happened, I wouldn't believe either of the parties involved. To be honest I'd be wary of ever trusting the guy again but I wouldn't know if he's guilty or not. Just as I wouldn't know if the girl was telling the truth or not.

But people do assume it. I'm not saying you can or should convict someone with no evidence but why does that have to become "she's a liar" "she consented and regrets it" or any of the other old chestnuts you hear

CDfm

eviltwin wrote: »

But people do assume it. I'm not saying you can or should convict someone with no evidence but why does that have to become "she's a liar" "she consented and regrets it" or any of the other old chestnuts you hear

I think bottle of smoke means that when there is no evidence. You cannot convict without evidence.

eviltwin

CDfm wrote: »

I think bottle of smoke means that when there is no evidence. You cannot convict without evidence.

Lack of evidence shouldnt be used as an excuse to rip a person's character to pieces either the accused or accuser

CDfm

eviltwin wrote: »

Lack of evidence shouldnt be used as an excuse to rip a person's character to pieces either the accused or accuser

Yup it shouldnt but the defendant is entitled to the best defence.

Remember the case earlier in the year when the woman returned from the USA and the guy from Galway was exonerated. His life had been ruined based on a false allegation and conviction and had served his sentence by the time his accuser recanted.

If a person is accused of murder or aggravated rape and subsequently found innocent his life will been on hold and house ,careeretc gone by the time the case is over.

The accused have rights too.

Ebbs

I believe the old saying of innocent until proven guilty stands.

The CCTV does go towards the evidence, but perhaps not conclusive. If I was on the jury and the only evidence was the two parties statements and the CCTV footage, I would be very wary of ruining the mans life by saying guilty. Im not saying he isnt, or that by letting him free I am not ruining the girls life, but I assume put in the position of a jury member, I would be ripped between the two decisions. However if we take out the CCTV footage..

Most rape cases are a he saiid, she said affair. If the women had shot the man and he survived and identified her as the shooter, yet there was no material evidence, eye witness reports, etc then the case would be thrown out without a political debate.

Sadly rape cases often two peoples worlds against eachother, and hence are thrown out of court. Rape conviction levels are something like 5% of accused parties being convicted, this dosnt even take into account those not reported which apparenttly is very, very high.

Another note to remember is that no body here is on the jury, and I assume no one here attended the trial and actually seen video evidence and statements. Our opinions are based on our interperation of a 3rd party media source, looking to make money from the story...hardly an objective source.

Bottle_of_Smoke

eviltwin wrote: »

But people do assume it. I'm not saying you can or should convict someone with no evidence but why does that have to become "she's a liar" "she consented and regrets it" or any of the other old chestnuts you hear

That's something altogether different than what I've said on this thread. I agree with you that kind of thing is wrong

A quiet one

eviltwin wrote: »

It says a lot about the attitude of Irish men to sex crimes...I was sexually assaulted myself as a nine year old child. I made the mistake of taking a short cut home from school down a lane way and was attacked and subjected to something horrific.

I only told people 10 years later. The women were 100% supportive but many men, people I considered friends, would say "thats terrible but..."

I really do believe that a lot of men still think a drunk woman is fair game.
....

I'm flummoxed by "that's terrible but...". It's inexplicable. And you were only nine so there's no correlation with a drunken woman because even for those as might happily take advantage of her, there is no such thing as a nine year old being "fair game"

However, there are valid applications of "that's terrible but...". Such as; "that's terrible, but you do realise don't you that not all men are like that."
Or, if you had revealed that the attacker was, say, another class mate;
"that's terrible, but for one child to attack another child like that suggests he must have been getting even worse at home"

It's in the nature of the inexplicable to make us try to find a reasoning that would make it work. In the Listowel case, any whispers that would have defended him had their chance to be aired and examined during the trial. Clearly they weren't good enough to stand the test on the stand.

One other point:

If someone reports a breakin or a mugging or some other crime they are generally believed...when its a woman reporting a sex crime some people will always be more willing to take the side of the attacker..and then we wonder why these crimes are so under reported

"they are generally believed." admits that some people wont believe them and there are reasons for that generally connected to profit, but equally, when a mother deliberately injuries of poisons her child so that she, the mother (and sometimes it's the father) can get attention there are those who have to be wary.

In contrast : "...reporting a sex crime some people will ...", there, "some" suggests that the victim is being generally believed.

I thought I'd point that out because by the end of this thread, you posts seems to have moved to the stand point where it's more or less all men who disbelieve the victim.

Incidentally, a bit of topic, sort of, but have you read the "Dear People" letter from a recent Irish Times; That victim's wish list was not totally unreasonable but I couldn't help but be reminded of the poem "Stop the Clocks, cut of the telephone , by W. H. Auden. Especially the end

"The stars are not wanted now: put out every one;
Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
Pour away the ocean and sweep up the wood.
For nothing now can ever come to any good.

She's clearly in mourning. Impact can be like a Hydra headed monster;

Merry Christmas.