Big Bucks or Diamond Harry this sat???

billy_beckham

Opinions?
My own is that BB is too good....sry P:o

mdwexford

BB, not close.

1/2 is a steal.

corny

billy_beckham wrote: »

Opinions?
My own is that BB is too good....sry P:o

Hope it will be a contest at least. Big Bucks was absolutely immense last time out. I've seen horses win on the bridle but he was taking the piss out of a reasonable sort in Lough Derg. If he returns in the same form i'd like to see how much he beats Diamond Harry by because thats all that would be at stake.

cson

Big Bucks on the bridle. I don't think anything will come close to him in any race this year.

cson

corny wrote: »

Hope it will be a contest at least. Big Bucks was absolutely immense last time out. I've seen horses win on the bridle but he was taking the piss out of a reasonable sort in Lough Derg. If he returns in the same form i'd like to see how much he beats Diamond Harry by because thats all that would be at stake.

Lough Derg is always off the bridle after a circuit though, boot it off in front all the time and hope he keeps finding. Decent battling horse and a very likeable sort.

premierstone

cson wrote: »

Big Bucks on the bridle. I don't think anything will come close to him in any race this year.

This.

He could fall and remount a couple of times and still win on the bridle!

Morgans

premierstone wrote: »

This.

He could fall and remount a couple of times and still win on the bridle!

Definitely dont think it will be that easy. However, Big Bucks won at Newbury, Diamond Harry won in easier fashion in Haydock. Was ridiculous how easy he won. Murphy taking a pull between the third and second last, between the second last and last, and again up the run in. Yes, it was a handicap, but carrying top weight he beat a very well handicapped horse without breaking sweat. Looked at this time last year that he would go right to the top, and it may be that this is his time of year. Connections sticking with hurdles because they think they have a chance in the stayers and willing to take on Big Bucks now. I think he has a chance this weekend.

I have the uptmost of respect for Big Bucks, backed him in the World hurdle last year, and he deserves to be the highest rated hurdler in training. However he is priced accordingly. I dont think he did anything that he shouldnt have done at Newbury. He is not unbeatable, he had his job made easier for him at Aintree when Mighty Man made a mess of the last. Prior to that, one thing has been noticeable, that he hits a flat spot in his races, for whatever reason. He probably does have the engine to overcome this as he has proven twice at Cheltenham last year, and he might have improved again this year for Nicholls, if so, then 1/2 could look big. I would be willing to give a fit Diamond Harry in flying form one chance to beat him. I think he will travel better though the race and come into the final bend on the bridle. Whether he has the engine to withstand Big Bucks is another issue. I think at 3/1 + ew is the bet.

corny

Morgans wrote: »

Definitely dont think it will be that easy. However, Big Bucks won at Newbury, Diamond Harry won in easier fashion in Haydock. Was ridiculous how easy he won. Murphy taking a pull between the third and second last, between the second last and last, and again up the run in. Yes, it was a handicap, but carrying top weight he beat a very well handicapped horse without breaking sweat. Looked at this time last year that he would go right to the top, and it may be that this is his time of year. Connections sticking with hurdles because they think they have a chance in the stayers and willing to take on Big Bucks now. I think he has a chance this weekend.

I have the uptmost of respect for Big Bucks, backed him in the World hurdle last year, and he deserves to be the highest rated hurdler in training. However he is priced accordingly. I dont think he did anything that he shouldnt have done at Newbury. He is not unbeatable, he had his job made easier for him at Aintree when Mighty Man made a mess of the last. Prior to that, one thing has been noticeable, that he hits a flat spot in his races, for whatever reason. He probably does have the engine to overcome this as he has proven twice at Cheltenham last year, and he might have improved again this year for Nicholls, if so, then 1/2 could look big. I would be willing to give a fit Diamond Harry in flying form one chance to beat him. I think he will travel better though the race and come into the final bend on the bridle. Whether he has the engine to withstand Big Bucks is another issue. I think at 3/1 + ew is the bet.

Would have thought Karabak at 10 to 1 would be the bet if you're going each way. Only found Zaynar too good a while back over an inadequate distance but finished ahead of Diamond Harry in the Ballymore. He'll relish a strongly run 3m a bit more than Diamond Harry too IMO. Might actually do that if there's still places 3 places race day.

Morgans

Karabak is interesting on his best form but getting weight from a 4yo I was hoping to see a lot more on his debut over what to me would be his ideal distance. I was disappointed with the effort. Diamond Harry has won over 3m+, Karabak didnt run to form over 3m at Aintree last year. Kings have been improving for a run but not entirely sure where Karabak will fit in this year.

I'd prefer Whiteoak and Fair Along for place bets.

I dont think Diamond Harry was at his best at the festival last year, even after Christmas. Wasnt as impressive as before christmas. He seemed that he is on very very good terms with himself at Haydock and its why I said that this might be the time to see him at his best. Stable in great form as well. I think he has a chance of turning over Big Bucks but but am confident that he will be closest to him. I'd like to see him upsides jumping the second last and may the best horse win.

Ten have been declared for the race, so should be three places come Saturday.

corny

Morgans wrote: »

Karabak is interesting on his best form but getting weight from a 4yo I was hoping to see a lot more on his debut over what to me would be his ideal distance. I was disappointed with the effort. Diamond Harry has won over 3m+, Karabak didnt run to form over 3m at Aintree last year. Kings have been improving for a run but not entirely sure where Karabak will fit in this year.

I'd prefer Whiteoak and Fair Along for place bets.

I dont think Diamond Harry was at his best at the festival last year, even after Christmas. Wasnt as impressive as before christmas. He seemed that he is on very very good terms with himself at Haydock and its why I said that this might be the time to see him at his best. Stable in great form as well. I think he has a chance of turning over Big Bucks but but am confident that he will be closest to him. I'd like to see him upsides jumping the second last and may the best horse win.

Ten have been declared for the race, so should be three places come Saturday.

Think you're being a bit harsh with Karabak. He was 17 lengths ahead of Red Maloney, 20+ ahead of Katchit and Lough Derg. Just hadn't the pace to deal with Zaynar, no disgrace there. He's crying out to be stepped up in distance. I was very impressed truth be told. I'll have a gentlemens wager with you he finishes ahead of Diamond Harry:)

Morgans

Very good. PM terms.

RichieLawlor

Big Bucks did hit a few flat spots in his races last year, in all of them infact, but that flat spot was noticeibly missing at Newbury, he never came off the bit. Paul Nicholls said that BB wouldn't have to improve a lot to be the best horse in the yard. Some statement.

They still haven't found the bottom of this horse, and as for saying he's beatable, I very much doubt it. Since he has reverted back to hurdles he's unbeaten, only 6 and very likely still improving 4/7 in places now, free money imo.

Also Big Bucks will win next years Gold Cup:)

Rio 2016

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Big Bucks did hit a few flat spots in his races last year, in all of them infact, but that flat spot was noticeibly missing at Newbury, he never came off the bit. Paul Nicholls said that BB wouldn't have to improve a lot to be the best horse in the yard. Some statement.

They still haven't found the bottom of this horse, and as for saying he's beatable, I very much doubt it. Since he has reverted back to hurdles he's unbeaten, only 6 and very likely still improving 4/7 in places now, free money imo.

Also Big Bucks will win next years Gold Cup:)

Fair comment

I think BB will win easily on Sat. DH cant seem to run in a straight line when he comes under pressure and the others just aren't in his league. Hope Lough Derg runs another admirable race.

mike65

BB to make it the 6th (?) Saturday in a row that Nicholls wins the big race.

deccy15

Are you guys for real??? It'll be nowhere near that easy for Big Bucks!!

He's a class horse who should win the race but Diamond Harry ran Mikael D'Haugenet to 2 lenghts when he wasn't right at cheltenham and laughed at his opposition off top weight in a big handicap lately!!
Karabak beat DH last time they met and was only beat by the current champion hurdle favourite last time out, give the 2 horses the respect they deserve!!!! :mad::mad::mad:

cson

Plenty of respect around here for Diamond Harry and Karabak but they will find one too good for them on Saturday. Big Bucks is by all accounts fast becoming the stable star at Ditcheat and that is saying something. The scary thing is he's likely still open to further improvement.

deccy15

cson wrote: »

Plenty of respect around here for Diamond Harry and Karabak but they will find one too good for them on Saturday. Big Bucks is by all accounts fast becoming the stable star at Ditcheat and that is saying something. The scary thing is he's likely still open to further improvement.

They probably will but it'll be nowhere near as easy as some of these guys are sayin!!!

mdwexford

deccy15 wrote: »

Are you guys for real??? It'll be nowhere near that easy for Big Bucks!!

He's a class horse who should win the race but Diamond Harry ran Mikael D'Haugenet to 2 lenghts when he wasn't right at cheltenham and laughed at his opposition off top weight in a big handicap lately!!
Karabak beat DH last time they met and was only beat by the current champion hurdle favourite last time out, give the 2 horses the respect they deserve!!!! :mad::mad::mad:

He ran MK to over 5 lengths at the festival, a performance that was rated 22lbs inferior to BB World Hurdle victory, hes a decent prospect but dont get ahead of yourself, BB is one the best staying hurdlers ever.

Karabak isnt in the same ball park as BB over hurdles, simple as.

deccy15

mdwexford wrote: »

He ran MK to over 5 lengths at the festival, a performance that was rated 22lbs inferior to BB World Hurdle victory, hes a decent prospect but dont get ahead of yourself, BB is one the best staying hurdlers ever.

Karabak isnt in the same ball park as BB over hurdles, simple as.

Think somebody else might be gettin ahead of themselves, what has he beat of note other than Punchestown's!! Saturday will be his toughest test to date!!

mdwexford

deccy15 wrote: »

Think somebody else might be gettin ahead of themselves, what has he beat of note other than Punchestown's!! Saturday will be his toughest test to date!!

Are you joking, look at the marks hes running too, and every time with plenty left in the locker.

Hes won a World Hurdle and an Aintree hurdle beating Punchestowns who is top class and Mighty Man who is very good round Liverpool.

Hes only against an up and coming novice in DH and an average hurdler in Karabak.

Neither of those has shown anything near Punchestowns form so far.
Im glad the DH hype is growing, the way its going i might get a silly price on BB on Saturday.

Johner

BB to win cosily.

cson

Big Bucks beat a very decent horse in Kasbah Bliss last year too, remember the french horse was a banker for a lot of people. So he has beat a few others than Punchestowns.

Morgans

I'd have Big Bucks as one of the greatest stayers of all time. I do think that he will stick over hurdles as he simply doesnt jump fences well enough. If Nicholls doesnt get him to jump as a novice, there are few that will. I dont think any horse is unbeatable and I think Diamond Harry is one of the very few that could travel with him. Whether he will be good enough we'll see.

As for the hype about Diamond Harry. Not sure there is any evidence of this. He has drifted from 3/1 to 7/2 from the start of the week, and I'd think its far more likely for the multitudes to row in with Nicholls again on Saturday after his column in the racing post. I cant see Big Bucks being a silly price. At 7/2 a decent each way bet is the way I'd go I think.

billy_beckham

:mad:

Whyno

billy_beckham wrote: »

:mad:

This :mad::mad::mad:

mdwexford

Aggghh, damn you snow, damn you to hell.

Whyno

mdwexford wrote: »

Aggghh, damn you snow, damn you to hell.

Its just cost me my christmas bonus :mad:

Colonel Sanders

Rescheduled for the 29th altho race is moved to Newbury

Rio 2016

Does anyone know if BB is still in? Heard somewhere that he might go straight to the Cleeve hurdle.

redzerdrog

i like big bucks and i can not lie!!!

Morgans

Don't think there can be any excuses for those behind. Well done to the lads who lumped on at 1/2. I went with the 4/1ew about Diamond Harry and was never really happy with him, never travelled that well and made mistakes, but whatever excuse that could be raised (trainer has been snowed in for the last two weeks and said he was only 90% ready, but he did win the previous race with reve de sivola so hard to know) DH isn't up to beating Big Bucks. Great horse, but despite the final outcome, it wasn't quiet as straightforward as some believed. Has the ability to get over any mid race flat spots he hits. The hill at Cheltenham plays directly into his hands as well. Also, well done to corny for his gentleman's wager of Karabak beating Diamond Harry. You should have tried for a non-gentleman's wager.

corny

Travelled like the best horse (he clearly isn't i know) did Karabak from what i saw but Big Bucks wasn't going to stop and really isn't for passing on ground like that. Perhaps on better ground he'd have beaten BB's.

Not to rub it in but i'd take Karabak over Diamond Harry every time. More substance to him. Can't believe some[one] <snip> called him an 'average hurdler'.

Whyno

corny wrote: »

Travelled like the best horse (he clearly isn't i know) did Karabak from what i saw but Big Bucks wasn't going to stop and really isn't for passing on ground like that. Perhaps on better ground he'd have beaten BB's.

Not to rub it in but i'd take Karabak over Diamond Harry every time. More substance to him. Can't believe some muppet poster called him an 'average hurdler'.

Big Bucks is better on better ground and karabak wont beat him. Id give Diamond harry the benefit of the doubt one time due to the fact that he still is a horse of massive potential imo. Jumped slopily and didnt travel as well as the last day but i reckon he'd prefer better ground as would they 2 that beat him.
Much improved display by karabak but it was a great performance by BB. I dont think there is a horse in the staying division to make him pull out all the stops.
Nasty fall for lough derg which was very uncharacterisitc and great to see him get up.My heart was in my mouth for a second when he went down.

Whyno

corny wrote: »

Travelled like the best horse (he clearly isn't i know) did Karabak from what i saw but Big Bucks wasn't going to stop and really isn't for passing on ground like that. Perhaps on better ground he'd have beaten BB's.

Not to rub it in but i'd take Karabak over Diamond Harry every time. More substance to him. Can't believe some muppet poster called him an 'average hurdler'.

Explain what you mean by this please

Rio 2016

BB wil beat this lot any day of the week IMO but boy did he give his followers, including myself, some anxious moments today but like many other champions he can be a bit of a monkey at times.

corny

Whyno wrote: »

Big Bucks is better on better ground and karabak wont beat him. Id give Diamond harry the benefit of the doubt one time due to the fact that he still is a horse of massive potential imo. Jumped slopily and didnt travel as well as the last day but i reckon he'd prefer better ground as would they 2 that beat him.
Much improved display by karabak but it was a great performance by BB. I dont think there is a horse in the staying division to make him pull out all the stops.
Nasty fall for lough derg which was very uncharacterisitc and great to see him get up.My heart was in my mouth for a second when he went down.

Firstly let me say i don't doubt for a second BB is the better horse nor did i say Karabak would beat him in future meetings. I thought he wasn't at his best today and perhaps if there was better ground he'd have been beaten. It's an imponderable i know.

As for Diamond Harry and Karabak. Did you give Diamond Harry the benefit of the doubt last time too because you do realise thats twice Karabak has beaten him? By near enough the same distance and no excuses either time.

And i'll certainly explain for you what i mean by more substance. Substance is the form staring you in the face and yet you still seem to think Diamond Harry is the better horse! Karabak isn't half as flash in victory but when the chips are down i reckon he'll always find more than Diamond Harry and beat him every time. Don't think thats a leap either because on Good and Heavy ground now he's proven it. They're both 6 and open to the same improvement and yet you had a ridiculous situation today where Diamond Harry was 11/4 and Karabak 14/1.

corny

Whyno wrote: »

Big Bucks is better on better ground and karabak wont beat him. Id give Diamond harry the benefit of the doubt one time due to the fact that he still is a horse of massive potential imo. Jumped slopily and didnt travel as well as the last day but i reckon he'd prefer better ground as would they 2 that beat him.
Much improved display by karabak but it was a great performance by BB. I dont think there is a horse in the staying division to make him pull out all the stops.
Nasty fall for lough derg which was very uncharacterisitc and great to see him get up.My heart was in my mouth for a second when he went down.

Much improved on what?

Whyno

corny wrote: »

Firstly let me say i don't doubt for a second BB is the better horse nor did i say Karabak would beat him in future meetings. I thought he wasn't at his best today and perhaps if there was better ground he'd have been beaten. It's an imponderable i know.

As for Diamond Harry and Karabak. Did you give Diamond Harry the benefit of the doubt last time too because you do realise thats twice Karabak has beaten him? By near enough the same distance and no excuses either time.

And i'll certainly explain for you what i mean by more substance. Substance is the form staring you in the face and yet you still seem to think Diamond Harry is the better horse! Karabak isn't half as flash in victory but when the chips are down i reckon he'll always find more than Diamond Harry and beat him every time. Don't think thats a leap either because on Good and Heavy ground now he's proven it. They're both 6 and open to the same improvement and yet you had a ridiculous situation today where Diamond Harry was 11/4 and Karabak 14/1.

There prices reflected there performances this season. On form you were spot on but i thought what you meant of substance was the horse itself and from what ive seen of karabak hes not half the horse of diamond harry who looks a chaser through and through. According to atr interview diamond harry is now going the rsa chase route now. Karabak seems to be a more leggy individual as most french breds but i wonder will he go the chasing route next season as he seems to lack the scope for chasing.Maybe i could be miles off but just an opinion.
The reason i was giving DH the benefit was because hes never really had the gun put to his head unlike karabak whos had the mccoy treatment on a number of occassions.DHs toughest race was in chel last season which karabak was skinned by mccoy for half the race which i feel may leave its toll on him an then also got the works in aintree where he was ott and ran very poorly in the context of a race he was more than capable of winning. Some horses thrive on this treament and gain improvement but others scar which after chatting to another on here i`ve came to the conclusion this has happened with binocular as he doesnt seem anything like the horse he was last season.

Whyno

corny wrote: »

Much improved on what?

His previous 3m form

mdwexford

corny wrote: »

Travelled like the best horse (he clearly isn't i know) did Karabak from what i saw but Big Bucks wasn't going to stop and really isn't for passing on ground like that. Perhaps on better ground he'd have beaten BB's.

Not to rub it in but i'd take Karabak over Diamond Harry every time. More substance to him. Can't believe some muppet poster called him an 'average hurdler'.

On better ground Big Bucks would have smashed him as well, are you blind or something, BB will not stop, he's impossible to find the bottom of and wont be beaten over hurdles for the next 4 years if he stays over the smaller obstacles.

More substance how, Diamond Harry has some nice form in the book and his run in the handicap was better than anything Karabak had ever done prior to today.

<snip>
average compared to BB or a top class staying hurdler, he'll never win a Grade 1 put it that way.

convert

Keep it civil, folks, otherwise infractions and bannings may ensue.

Rio 2016

Whyno wrote: »

There prices reflected there performances this season. On form you were spot on but i thought what you meant of substance was the horse itself and from what ive seen of karabak hes not half the horse of diamond harry who looks a chaser through and through. According to atr interview diamond harry is now going the rsa chase route now. Karabak seems to be a more leggy individual as most french breds but i wonder will he go the chasing route next season as he seems to lack the scope for chasing.Maybe i could be miles off but just an opinion.
The reason i was giving DH the benefit was because hes never really had the gun put to his head unlike karabak whos had the mccoy treatment on a number of occassions.DHs toughest race was in chel last season which karabak was skinned by mccoy for half the race which i feel may leave its toll on him an then also got the works in aintree where he was ott and ran very poorly in the context of a race he was more than capable of winning. Some horses thrive on this treament and gain improvement but others scar which after chatting to another on here i`ve came to the conclusion this has happened with binocular as he doesnt seem anything like the horse he was last season.

I know that I might be going a bit off topic here but I do not believe that the McCoy treatment is the raeson for Binocular going sour. The only two times that he was ever involved in a seriously hard race were at the Festival both times and he was never off the bridle in either race until the last couple of furlongs. There has to be some other explanation.

I do agree with you on Karabek however, like many of his stable mates and I believe that Diamond Harry is a far more promising individual, when he goes over fences.

NewApproach

corny wrote: »

Much improved on what?

Not necessarily much improved, but it showed he stays 3 miles and handles the ground, so a very positive run in defeat

Morgans

Yes. If Big Bucks picked up an injury, Karabak would be one of the very likely ones for the festival. Looks to be fighting for second at the moment though.