Needless redirection of flights at Cork this morning because ILS wasn't booted up

probe

Flights had to be re-directed this morning due to fog at ORK because apparently the ILS system wasn’t switched on. One aircraft reportedly circled the airport waiting for the ILS to become operational until it was running low in fuel and had to divert. This caused knock on delays and needless waste of time for passengers – as well as additional costs for the airlines involved.

I have just had a look at the NOTAMs for EICK, and there are two ILS related entries:

A1269/09 - CORK ILS MM RWY 35 COMPLETELY WITHDRAWN. 19 OCT 11:00 2009 UNTIL PERM. CREATED:
01 DEC 23:03 2009

A1270/09 - CORK ILS OM RWY 35 COMPLETELY WITHDRAWN. 19 OCT 11:00 2009 UNTIL PERM. CREATED:
01 DEC 22:49 2009

Reminds one of the ESB flooding in Cork a few weeks ago.

IAA = another incompetent organization, who has no regard for the customer?

John_Mc

How do you know it "wasnt booted up" instead of out of service?

yaeger

MM and OM do not have to be operational in order for ILS to operate...

Suggest you keep digging

buzzard

Can you expain the difference to a novice please

pclancy

"Booted up" Lol. It's not a 486.

Outer and Middle markers are used to indicate an aircrafts fix during an approach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marker_beacon.

OP are we a little disgruntled with the IAA perchance?

probe

John_Mc wrote: »

How do you know it "wasnt booted up" instead of out of service?

Reading between the lines of what the Aer Lingus captain said - (a) the ILS seems to be "off" except when poor visibility is expected and (b) it appears to take them at least a half an hour to get the system operational when they decide to switch it on.

In addition there is the NOTAM
"A1269/09 - CORK ILS MM RWY 35 COMPLETELY WITHDRAWN. 19 OCT 11:00 2009 UNTIL PERM. CREATED:
01 DEC 23:03 2009"

On the day in question, the wind was from the NW during the period of fog - which suggests to me that they would have been using RWY 35 to land.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=cork+airport,+ie&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=40.681389,107.138672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cork+Airport,+County+Cork,+Ireland&ll=51.841293,-8.481317&spn=0.015538,0.052314&t=h&z=15

This is a new ILS system - why has it been completely withdrawn until perm on runway 35?

Cork airport is the most stupidly located airport in the country - on top of a hill which acts as a magnet for fog, mist etc - and the temperature is typically 2C colder than elsewhere in the region. It should have category III C ILS to make up for the weather problem in its immediate vicinity. AFAICS, the only ILS system operational at ORK is runway 17 - which is only cat II.

probe

pclancy wrote: »

"Booted up" Lol. It's not a 486.

Outer and Middle markers are used to indicate an aircrafts fix during an approach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marker_beacon.

OP are we a little disgruntled with the IAA perchance?

Disgruntled is an under-statement! probe doesn't think of ILS as a 486 - more akin to guys with a "bright torch" (of radio waves rather than light spectrum) shining a series of "lights" up in the air to guide the aircraft on approach, at the marker points. ILS seems to be a temperamental animal - I'd leave it running all the time to increase the chance that problems could be picked up during visual approach landings, and eliminate the risk of not having the system running if the weather changes suddenly for the worse.

If IAA has problems with ILS, they should be looking at the alternatives such as LAAS, as soon as it becomes available - where one system can service all runways at an airport.

Mr Benevolent

In addition there is the NOTAM
"A1269/09 - CORK ILS MM RWY 35 COMPLETELY WITHDRAWN. 19 OCT 11:00 2009 UNTIL PERM. CREATED:
01 DEC 23:03 2009"

That's not a withdrawal of the ILS, it's a withdrawal of the Middle Marker.

probe

Confab wrote: »

That's not a withdrawal of the ILS, it's a withdrawal of the Middle Marker.

If you don't have a Middle Marker you don't have a fully functioning ILS. It is supposed to indicate in low visibility conditions the missed approach point, and to indicate that visual contact with the runway is imminent.

I don't want to be in an aircraft coming in to land in conditions of poor visibility where the Middle Marker is not functioning. Even the IAA don't pretend to have operational ILS on this runway in:
http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/Published%20Files/AIP%20Files/AD/EI_AD_1_1_en.pdf

It looks like something one would come across in a badly managed third world country. Airline pilots should not be tolerating such crap service from the IAA.

highlydebased

probe wrote: »

If you don't have a Middle Marker you don't have a fully functioning ILS. It is supposed to indicate in low visibility conditions the missed approach point, and to indicate that visual contact with the runway is imminent.

I don't want to be in an aircraft coming in to land in conditions of poor visibility where the Middle Marker is not functioning. Even the IAA don't pretend to have operational ILS on this runway in:
http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/Published%20Files/AIP%20Files/AD/EI_AD_1_1_en.pdf

It looks like something one would come across in a badly managed third world country. Airline pilots should not be tolerating such crap service from the IAA.

That document states which runways have CATII and IIIa capability in Ireland, RWY35 at Cork is not one of them so it would not be on the list.

probe

Neon-Circles wrote: »

That document states which runways have CATII and IIIa capability in Ireland, RWY35 at Cork is not one of them so it would not be on the list.

You obviously haven't read the thread!

"A1269/09 - CORK ILS MM RWY 35 COMPLETELY WITHDRAWN. 19 OCT 11:00 2009 UNTIL PERM. CREATED:
01 DEC 23:03 2009"

Several posters have pointed out that only the MM was withdrawn - implying that RWY 35 still has "sort of" ILS.

On my way to the airport that day there was a traffic accident. I was in the airport shuttle coach. A guy in a car was overtaking the coach using an overtaking lane, and had to slam his brakes on during the overtaking movement. His brakes were pulling to the right and he hit the bus - bouncing off same, and his vehicle was thrown into two lanes of oncoming traffic. He was lucky - if the roadside barrier wasn't up to the job, his car could have gone over the cliff and fallen several hundred metres.

I'm sure he knew his brakes were pulling to one side before that event - and probably procrastinated on doing something to have the problem corrected.

I certainly won't put up with an aviation "authority" who has purchased an ILS system that has to be taken out of commission permanently on one side of the runway - for whatever reason - presumably they bought it from some backstreet supplier that can't support same?

And I take a dim view of airlines and pilots that accept this compromised situation - one can only wonder what other defective systems aviation professionals are putting up with?

It is no different to the oxygen masks that don't drop down automatically, and flight attendants apparently have to run up and down the aisles using their security cards to release the masks. It is not rocket science to get these devices to work as expected. I accept that perhaps 1% mightn't work - for whatever reason, but on an aircraft with 180 PAX - this is just two masks that need attention. FAs have more important things to be doing in an emergency rather than fiddling with masks.

Ditto for pilots when landing in poor visibility when the ILS is not working 100%.

Keine Entschuldigung!

N2

If the ILS has an associated DME, an OM is not required as there are height v distance checks available.

highlydebased

probe wrote: »

You obviously haven't read the thread!

"A1269/09 - CORK ILS MM RWY 35 COMPLETELY WITHDRAWN. 19 OCT 11:00 2009 UNTIL PERM. CREATED:
01 DEC 23:03 2009"

!

I've read the thread alright and laughed at your in-eptness, but the IAA document you linked to gives a list of Cat II/III capable runways. You said there was no mention of RWY35 on it saying "Even the IAA don't pretend to have operational ILS on this runway in:" So really your comment there was unnessecary!

PhoenixRising

MM's are a thing of the past and are not required. Most airports no longer have or maintain MM's. They have no effect on the ILS system, nor do they effect the system minima. As for OM's, they similarly are not required and have no effect on landing minima, as long as the approach chart has an equivalent position published, which all do. With DME these days, marker beacons have become redundant.

Probe, Cork has a fully functioning ILS on RWY35 which meets all regulatory requirements for both airport and operators. Engage brain before mouth.

pclancy

Keine Entschuldigung indeed but there's no safety being comprimised here by anyone and nothing being bought second hand.

Enough. Locking.