Restrictors on Upstairs windows - an extra cost?

Quack13

We recently got the windows installed on our new build. VERY happy with the windows. Not so happy with some of our dealings with the window company for various reasons.

My architect mentioned to me last week that all opening windows in bedrooms MUST be fitted with restrictors as required by Part B of the bulding regulations.

This were not mentioned to me when going through the ordering process with the glazing company.
If I don't have these, then my engineer cannot sign off on my build.

I have asked the company about them and they said they have ordered some, which I will receive in the new year, but it will be an extra cost to me.

Is it not up for them to comply with the regulations when making the order, or at least mention it to me, bring it to my attention.

I know in the cases where any windows required toughened glass, they automatically included it in the quote.

I am paying a LOT of money for this windows..my biggest expense on the build by far, and this is not the first time they are hitting me for little extras after the order had been processed.

Any have any thoughts on this or similar experiences?


See below for regulation:

---

1.5.6 (e) The opening section of the window should be
secured by means of fastenings which are readily
openable from the inside and should be fitted
with safety restrictors. Safety restrictors can be
either an integral part of the window operating
gear or separate items of hardware which can be
fitted to a window at the time of manufacture or
at installation. Restrictors should operate so that
they limit the initial movement of an opening
section to not more than 100 mm. Lockable
handles or restrictors, which can only be
released by removable keys or other tools,
should not be fitted to window opening sections.

---

sydthebeat

My opinion would be that compliance with building regulations should be the baseline standard for quotations.

These restrictors can cost about €10 each so how many first floor bedrooms have you?? you may only be looking at 30 -40 yo-yos
extra...


also, you are supposed to wait for the engineers / architects 'sign off' of the windows before paying these guys....

Quack13

Yeah, I'm of a similar opinion.

We have 5 opening bedroom windows. I haven't got into prices with them yet.

It's more a matter of principal.

You spend over 40K with a company and they have the gall to try and sting you for a couple of quid for what is a reasonably small thing and arguably something that they should have brought to your attention a lot earlier.

muffler

As syd stated and to avoid any friction just pay for the restrictors but not the labour content of having then fitted.

If your window suppliers argue the point then just point out that you will request the local building control officer to carry out an inspection of the windows and they can then face the music regarding non compliance with the building regs. I think they would be more agreeable after that.

jungleboy

This is an issue for the window supplier, is he paid in full? They cannot supply you with a product the dose not meet building regs, call their bluf and tell them that if they don't address the issue you will be holding they liable for delays related to you move in.

Mellor

jungleboy wrote: »

This is an issue for the window supplier, is he paid in full? They cannot supply you with a product the dose not meet building regs, call their bluf and tell them that if they don't address the issue you will be holding they liable for delays related to you move in.

This is nonsense. Seriously, stop trying to over complicated the issue.

Firstly, liable for delays? It's not a hotel, its a house. Trying hold them liable would end up costing you more that the price of the restrictors.

Secondly, they didn't supply windows that don't comply. The windows are perfectly fine to be sold without restrictors. However, they are not compliant for fitting to bedrooms.
So unless they fitted them too, they have done nothing wrong, technically. They should however make people aware of the need of restrictors from a moral POV, they didn't from the looks of it.

PJMCKE

Hi Mellor,muffler,all,

Are you saying there is an obligation from them to comply with building regulations if they supply and fit.
Muffler, I would never have thought that to with hold payment until engineer signs off. Sounds obvious now but easily overlooked.Thanks for this information.

Quack13, were your windows supply and fit and also, did you purchase them from an irish company. It does sound like it should be made clear in writing at the time of order that suplly and/or fit of windows should comply with current building regulations.

Regards,p

Mellor

My point was that if they are just supplying generic windows, then there is no reason for them to include the restrictors (costs, labour, looks etc), as they could be going into any location.
However, they were fitting them, or were specificly made aware that they were bedroom windows. Then they should supply restrictors as they are now aware that they are bedroom windows, are should be aware of the requirements

TCn1

Hi Folks,

I am new to Boards so apologies if I should have started a new thread or not to do this - option to post new is not there . . . .

Anyway, my situation is that I don't know what I should or should not do to ensure the optimum safety for the up-stairs windows for my 2 young children, aged 3 & 4. Why must there be a trade-off between preventing them from climbing/falling out the windows and Fire Safety so that they can escape easily in the event of a fire? This has always been on my mind but, bearing in mind the tragic accidents children have had in the home recently, I need to know the precise action I should take so that they are safe from falls and easily able to escape in the event of fire.

Upstairs front of house - 3 windows, one in our bedroom, one on landing and one in 4 year old's bedroom. The window in each of these rooms is one single large pvc window with a handle (with key lock but open and not locked and key removed). The handle lifts half way which makes the top of the window lean back at the top into the room slightly. When you turn the window handle the full way the whole window opens inwards leaving an opening of about 3ft x 4ft. The windowsills are about 2 and a half foot up from the ground which means that if the children opened these this way they could lean / climb / fall out the large/low-down opening. I think they are called tilt and turn windows but don't quote me on that!

Upstairs Rear of house - 3windows:
1) - bathroom rectangular window on top opens if you push the button on the window handle - don't know if 3 year old strong enough but if 4 year old figured it out she defo strong enough to open it!
2) The other 2 windows at rear comprise of those in most houses, a large pane at one side and beside it a small window over a medium sized window. Both the small and medium sized windows have keys with removable locks. Small window unlikely to be able to fit out but medium sized they would and again the height of this medium window is about 2.5 foot from the ground. Do I lock them and take away the key or leave they unlocked for fire escape? Also risk of keys getting lost and if window locked then what happens if there is a fire!!!!!!

My concern for fire safety is to keep windows unlocked and unrestricted and train the kids how to open buttons/keys so that they can escape in a fire. My concern to prevent them falling to their death is to lock them up and for me to use a key to open them when necessary and lock them immediately when I am finished.
Is there a way to achieve both a home free from the risks of falling out up-stairs windows and one that children can easily escape in the event of a fire????

I REALLY LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR INSHIGHT OF SIMILAR DELEMMAS!!!

Thanks!

TCn1

BryanF

sydthebeat wrote: »

My opinion would be that compliance with building regulations should be the baseline standard for quotations.

These restrictors can cost about €10 each so how many first floor bedrooms have you?? you may only be looking at 30 -40 yo-yos
extra...


also, you are supposed to wait for the engineers / architects 'sign off' of the windows before paying these guys....

Have you seen this ^

TCn1 wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I am new to Boards so apologies if I should have started a new thread or not to do this - option to post new is not there . . . .

Anyway, my situation is that I don't know what I should or should not do to ensure the optimum safety for the up-stairs windows for my 2 young children, aged 3 & 4. Why must there be a trade-off between preventing them from climbing/falling out the windows and Fire Safety so that they can escape easily in the event of a fire? This has always been on my mind but, bearing in mind the tragic accidents children have had in the home recently, I need to know the precise action I should take so that they are safe from falls and easily able to escape in the event of fire.

Upstairs front of house - 3 windows, one in our bedroom, one on landing and one in 4 year old's bedroom. The window in each of these rooms is one single large pvc window with a handle (with key lock but open and not locked and key removed). The handle lifts half way which makes the top of the window lean back at the top into the room slightly. When you turn the window handle the full way the whole window opens inwards leaving an opening of about 3ft x 4ft. The windowsills are about 2 and a half foot up from the ground which means that if the children opened these this way they could lean / climb / fall out the large/low-down opening. I think they are called tilt and turn windows but don't quote me on that!

Upstairs Rear of house - 3windows:
1) - bathroom rectangular window on top opens if you push the button on the window handle - don't know if 3 year old strong enough but if 4 year old figured it out she defo strong enough to open it!
2) The other 2 windows at rear comprise of those in most houses, a large pane at one side and beside it a small window over a medium sized window. Both the small and medium sized windows have keys with removable locks. Small window unlikely to be able to fit out but medium sized they would and again the height of this medium window is about 2.5 foot from the ground. Do I lock them and take away the key or leave they unlocked for fire escape? Also risk of keys getting lost and if window locked then what happens if there is a fire!!!!!!

My concern for fire safety is to keep windows unlocked and unrestricted and train the kids how to open buttons/keys so that they can escape in a fire. My concern to prevent them falling to their death is to lock them up and for me to use a key to open them when necessary and lock them immediately when I am finished.
Is there a way to achieve both a home free from the risks of falling out up-stairs windows and one that children can easily escape in the event of a fire????

I REALLY LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR INSHIGHT OF SIMILAR DELEMMAS!!!

Thanks!

TCn1

martinn123

Fire Reg's state that windows in Bedrooms should not have keys.

So replace the handels on these windows with keyless handels, I like the ones with a luminous button, so can be seen in the dark/smoke

Fit restrictors as was being discussed in this thread, previously

The bathrooms are OK, just fit restrictors if you are worried.

Do the openings meet the minimum size openings, for Fire Escape?
Front sounds OK, ( they are called Tilt & Turn ), rear with top over side maybe not, if not replace them.

sydthebeat

Hi TCn1

your fears are certainly not in isolation, im raising 5 in a 2 storey house.

ill deal with your issues in a number manner if thats ok.

1. yes those window are called tilt and turn.

2. the window cill and, more importantly, the openable section of the front windows are the height above floor level specifically to protect against leaning / inadvert falling out of, an open window. Me at 5' 10" wouldnt fall out of a window which is 2 1/2 foot (750 - 800 mm) above floor level. So thats not a worry. Of course, if you locate boxes / desks etc under the window which and adventurous child WILL climb, then your asking for trouble. I have specifically laid out my kids bedrooms, which include bunk beds, desk etc, so not to have any kind of fixture located under or near the openable section of a window.

3. the tilt and turn feature has the safety restrictor built-in ie the half way turn. I would purport that by the time a child is tall enough to reach the handle and clever enough to turn it the whole way up, they are old enough to have the cop on as to not fall out the window.

4. on the upstairs rear bedroom windows, are both openable windows outward opening? what are the dimension of the medium openable window and what is the cill height above floor level here? If the cill is again 2 1/2 feet up and the openable section is possibly 2 foot x 2 foot they it would suffice as an escape route. You can of course fit restrictors here and i would encourage that. These restrictors hold the window to only 100mm (4") open and can be easily undone by pushing them down and off a catch.
Again with this, if the kids are old enough to figure out how to undo the catch, id argue they're old enough to know the dangers of the window.

5. as a slight aside, a neighbours child fell out of a first floor window a few years back... id say he was only about 3. this was due to teh room being laid out so it was easy to climb from the bed onto the window cill and the window was left open (no restrictor) in summer. The child survived the fall with a broken arm because the recycle bin happened to be directly below the window.

TCn1

Hi Guys thanks so much for all the brilliant replies!

BryanE:
The house is about 10 years old so don't know supplier/installer was to get them to sort. Im happy to pay whatever the cost to achieve best actual safety of the kids. The restrictions you talk about - are they also suitable for the big heavy tilt/turn. If I had these restrictors, together with illlumonous button handles that would make me reg. compliant? In your opinion would these make it very difficult for children to fall out? if their lives depended on it would small children be strong enough to force the window open more in some way to escape - say if fire was in landing or their own front room where they cant get to the door?

Martin123:
If the windows have the restrictors on them to prevent falls, would this not also make it impossible for children to escape from a fire if say the fire prevented them from getting out to me or if I had already passed out?

Sydthebeat:
No.2 - we have very similar thought processed - I too have the rooms upstairs laid-out in such a way that there is no beds/desk//chests/shelves etc anywhere near the window. The difficulty is that they extremely good at climbing and if they aren't climbing they are jumping or making towers out of toys and cushions. I have been very lucky that they have not so far tried to open the windows possibly because we never let them see us opening them or even see them open. They would very easily bring their plastic chairs/tables and any other toys/cushions they would think would help reach if they set their mind to it. Both of them have the cop-on and dexterity of a normal 6 year old and regularly have 6 & 7 year old cousins up playing with them which would add to the strength and height requirements to open the windows!!!! IF someone managed to get a handle open, my 3 year old would stack books or ANYTHING to lean out the opening and out. The windowsills themselves seem to be a good bit closer to the ground that you would normally see.

No. 3 - Again the moment they do decide they want to reach the windows, they will use anything they can stack from books to toys pillows to build a taller tower - 4 year old the step they use to reach the sink would be enough for her to reach the tilt/turn handle and she strong enough got it too. Also risk of the slightly taller / stronger 6 and 7 year old cousins to opening the window and leaving it open and my 3 year old would be in like Flynn making his tower/ladder!

NO. 4 - Would children be able to open these latches if they were trying to escape in the event of fire if I wasn't able to get to them to help?

No.5 That must have been awful - totally blessed not to have been much much worse.



One other thing I have wondered about is that is there such thing as some sort of steel rope ladder that can be fitted to either inside or outside of upstairs window and rolled down outside wall to safety in the event of fire??

Cheers!!!!

sydthebeat

I think you're possibly over analysing things but you may have particularly boisterous kids.

Sounds like the best thing for you is to apply high level restrictors which only older kids upwards can reach.
Google jackloc restrictors for example.

Remember also that the window is an alternative means of escape and down the stairs is the primary route. Teach your kids this and run through drills with them as to what to do if the alarm goes off.

galwaytt

TCn1 wrote: »

One other thing I have wondered about is that is there such thing as some sort of steel rope ladder that can be fitted to either inside or outside of upstairs window and rolled down outside wall to safety in the event of fire??

Cheers!!!!

Yep, there are several. This is but one: http://www.ladders.ie/escapeladder.html]

More elaborate: http://www.safelincs.ie/modum-fire-escape-ladder/

TCn1

Thanks a million!!!!!!

2009_

You can get cord restrictors for your windows that are releasble, might be of some use to you...check out aldridge.co.uk