Cyclists rarely to blame

SleepDoc

Pretty good article stating what I've found already (both my painful crashes were someone else's (motorist) fault). Drove to work today for the first time in months so feel like I can talk with good authority when I say that motorists need to slow the f""k down and look at what they are doing!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycling-bike-accidents-study

short circuit

This thread has PFFF.

Mods ... could we temporarily lock it ..







PFFF - Potential For Flame Friday ...

blorg

+1, if it can't be locked we at least have to keep it going until then; when is Tim's ban over again?

petethedrummer

I definitely think the findings of this study could be disproven with anecdotal evidence.

BostonB

Someone told me they couldn't.

Saltour Sossiez

SleepDoc wrote: »

Pretty good article stating what I've found already (both my painful crashes were someone else's (motorist) fault). Drove to work today for the first time in months so feel like I can talk with good authority when I say that motorists need to slow the f""k down and look at what they are doing!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycling-bike-accidents-study

Shame

uberwolf

short circuit wrote: »

This thread has PFFF.

Mods ... could we temporarily lock it ..

PFFF - Potential For Flame Friday ...

blorg wrote: »

+1, if it can't be locked we at least have to keep it going until then; when is Tim's ban over again?

lads, please use the report button instead of in thread commentary.

blorg

uberwolf wrote: »

lads, please use the report button instead of in thread commentary.

I don't think either comment was entirely serious

mal1

I've started to commute on the bike after a break of about 5-6years (college being the last time that i cycled everyday), and i have to say that i partly disagree. I think the standard of cycling is really poor in Dublin/Ireland. Hardly any cyclists obey the rules of the road. Some of the behaviour i see every morning is shocking. 80% of cyclists don't obey a red light etc etc.

In the end of the day, prevention is better than blame. We should all look after ourselves as best we can by cycling safely, before we start moaning about other road users.

niceonetom

mal1 wrote: »

I've started to commute on the bike after a break of about 5-6years (college being the last time that i cycled everyday), and i have to say that i partly disagree. I think the standard of cycling is really poor in Dublin/Ireland. Hardly any cyclists obey the rules of the road. Some of the behaviour i see every morning is shocking. 80% of cyclists don't obey a red light etc etc.

In the end of the day, prevention is better than blame. We should all look after ourselves as best we can by cycling safely, before we start moaning about other road users.

Anecdotal evidence to the rescue! Screw the data! Initial prejudice FTW!!!

mal1

niceonetom wrote: »

Anecdotal evidence to the rescue! Screw the data! Initial prejudice FTW!!!

I didn't say it was a fact. I just said i disagree.

Mr. Presentable

SleepDoc wrote: »

Pretty good article stating what I've found already (both my painful crashes were someone else's (motorist) fault). Drove to work today for the first time in months so feel like I can talk with good authority when I say that motorists need to slow the f""k down and look at what they are doing!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycling-bike-accidents-study

Depending on how you read it, it also says that up to 40% of cyclist accidents are the fault of the cyclist.

Most road accidents involve a lapse by at least two parties. You shouldn't have pulled out, but I should have been able to stop. (Sounds like a PI, doesn't it )

buffalo

mal1 wrote: »

I've started to commute on the bike after a break of about 5-6years (college being the last time that i cycled everyday), and i have to say that i partly disagree. I think the standard of cycling is really poor in Dublin/Ireland. Hardly any cyclists obey the rules of the road. Some of the behaviour i see every morning is shocking. 80% of cyclists don't obey a red light etc etc.

In the end of the day, prevention is better than blame. We should all look after ourselves as best we can by cycling safely, before we start moaning about other road users.

I think you might've missed the point of the report - it states that this shocking behaviour is rarely the cause of accidents. Agreeing or disagreeing doesn't really come into scientific studies (though you might believe the study to be flawed).

In conclusion, it's alright for RLJers to carry on RLJing!*

NB: I do condone nor participate in said behaviour

blorg

nipplenuts wrote: »

Depending on how you read it, it also says that up to 40% of cyclist accidents are solely the fault of the cyclist.

Where did you get that bit?

The 64-page analysis found that police attributed responsibility for collisions more or less evenly between drivers and cyclists overall, but this was skewed by the fact that when child riders were involved their behaviour was named as a primary factor more than three-quarters of the time.

With adult cyclists, police found the driver solely responsible in about 60%-75% of all cases, and riders solely at fault 17%-25% of the time.

petethedrummer

blorg wrote: »

Where did you get that bit?

nipplenuts wrote: »

Depending on how you read it,

you could jumble up all the letters rearrange them and come to that conclusion.

Mr. Presentable

blorg wrote: »

Where did you get that bit?

Ooops. Misread it. Mea culpa. Post fixed

blorg

nipplenuts wrote: »

Depending on how you read it, it also says that up to 40% of cyclist accidents are the fault of the cyclist.

I don't see how your edit works either, the only mention of 40% in the article is here:

The data, which was analysed by the Transport Research Laboratory (TRL), showed that more than a quarter of all cycling deaths in 2005-07 happened when a vehicle ran into the rear of a bike. This rose to more than one-third in rural areas and to 40% in collisions that took place away from junctions.

Unless you are suggesting that when a vehicle runs into the rear of a bike, it is the cyclist's fault? :pac:

Chips Lovell

He probably means this:

With adult cyclists, police found the driver solely responsible in about 60%-75% of all cases, and riders solely at fault 17%-25% of the time.

Which means in up to 40 per cent of accidents the cyclist at least partly responsible (not solely, mind).

Anyone seen the full study? It refers to red light jumping and no lights, but I'm wondering if (what I'd guess is the main cause of death through poor cycling) riding up the inside of HGVs is mentioned.

blorg

el tonto wrote: »

He probably means this: Which means in up to 40 per cent of accidents the cyclist at least partly responsible (not solely, mind).

That is such a ridiculous spin of those figures as to be mind-boggling. "Police found the driver solely responsible in about 60%-75% of all cases, and riders solely at fault 17%-25% of the time" simply does not support "up to 40% of cyclist accidents are the fault of the cyclist."

It would support at most "In 25-40% of accidents the cyclist contributed to the accident." Even then presumably there is a number of "no blame" accidents where the driver is not "solely responsible" but neither is the cyclist so the number where cyclists are even partially responsible must be lower still.

Anyone seen the full study? It refers to red light jumping and no lights, but I'm wondering if (what I'd guess is the main cause of death through poor cycling) riding up the inside of HGVs is mentioned.[/QUOTE]I was surprised by how prevalent rear-ending seemed to be, I thought that was very rare.

Chips Lovell

blorg wrote: »

I was surprised by how prevalent rear-ending seemed to be, I thought that was very rare.

I was too, but when I thought about it, it seemed less surprising. Most of my close shaves have been a car passing too closely. If they'd gone any nearer it would have bene a rear ender I suppose.

Macha

You can download the full study from here:

http://www.trl.co.uk/online_store/reports_publications/trl_reports/cat_road_user_safety/report_collisions_involving_pedal_cyclists_on_britain_s_roads_establishing_the_causes_.htm

blorg

el tonto wrote: »

I was too, but when I thought about it, it seemed less surprising. Most of my close shaves have been a car passing too closely. If they'd gone any nearer it would have bene a rear ender I suppose.

Generally they are counted as side swipes, not rear ending. If they counted that as "rear ending" then I can believe it as they are certainly common enough. I read another report some time, can't recall the details right now, but that was quite a common mode of collision.

Chips Lovell

blorg wrote: »

Generally they are counted as side swipes, not rear ending. If they counted that as "rear ending" then I can believe it as they are certainly common enough. I read another report some time, can't recall the details right now, but that was quite a common mode of collision.

If side swipes are counted separately, then I really am surprised. That's staggering.

concussion

Accidents in urban areas are most likely to happen at junctions, the highest being from cyclists going straigt and cars going straight or turning left. After this, it's cyclist being hit while turning right.

Very little incidents (22%) happened at night (although when they do happen they are more likely to result in fatality). This breaks down to
1 - less people are cyling at night (but less cars aswell) or
2 - people look but very rarely see.

That would agree with my own experience - even though it's dark, I fell less visible during the day, with motorists looking right through me and not realising I'm there.

chakattack

mal1 wrote: »

I've started to commute on the bike after a break of about 5-6years (college being the last time that i cycled everyday), and i have to say that i partly disagree. I think the standard of cycling is really poor in Dublin/Ireland. Hardly any cyclists obey the rules of the road. Some of the behaviour i see every morning is shocking. 80% of cyclists don't obey a red light etc etc.

In the end of the day, prevention is better than blame. We should all look after ourselves as best we can by cycling safely, before we start moaning about other road users.

Did you read the article?

SleepDoc

mal1 wrote: »

I've started to commute on the bike after a break of about 5-6years (college being the last time that i cycled everyday), and i have to say that i partly disagree. I think the standard of cycling is really poor in Dublin/Ireland. Hardly any cyclists obey the rules of the road. Some of the behaviour i see every morning is shocking. 80% of cyclists don't obey a red light etc etc.

In the end of the day, prevention is better than blame. We should all look after ourselves as best we can by cycling safely, before we start moaning about other road users.

This is, to borrow a phrase from Richard Dawkins, an argument from personal incredulity.

Today a hearse tried to run me down.

concussion

I waited behind one today out of respect even though my turn was about 10 m up the road. As he reached the junction he took up position on the right (without indicating) at the exact point I would have been if I'd been passing him while the traffic was moving. It was a bit weird to say the least.

DirkVoodoo

As far as incredulity goes, I had a moped sit in front of me and go the whole way down the rock road in the clearly marked cycle path. If I had been quicker I would have snapped a photo. I have often seen motorbikes nip into the lanes, which is fine even if they are not meant to unless there is a car turning right, but to see a moped just pipping along quite happily was something else.

blorg

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

As far as incredulity goes, I had a moped sit in front of me and go the whole way down the rock road in the clearly marked cycle path. If I had been quicker I would have snapped a photo. I have often seen motorbikes nip into the lanes, which is fine even if they are not meant to unless there is a car turning right, but to see a moped just pipping along quite happily was something else.

I'm amazed if that's the first time that's happened to you.

monument

concussion wrote: »

I waited behind one today out of respect even though my turn was about 10 m up the road.

20kmph / 12mph is an average cycling speed, achievable by an average adult cyclist. Cyclists can be slower because of the wind or hills, but often many cyclists can and do travel much faster.

20kmph = 5.5 meters per second. Thus 10 meters would be travelled quicker than 2 seconds.

concussion wrote: »

As he reached the junction he took up position on the right (without indicating) at the exact point I would have been if I'd been passing him while the traffic was moving. It was a bit weird to say the least.

I'm not clear exactly what this cyclist was doing, but it sounds a lot like what's call "taking the lane". This would be done at a left turn to stop motorists from passing them out and turning when there is no room to do so.

petethedrummer

@monument...Concussion was referring to a hearse. I think. had to re-read a few times.

DirkVoodoo

blorg wrote: »

I'm amazed if that's the first time that's happened to you.

Nope first time. They have gone around buses and the like on the N11 by using the cycle lane, but this is the first time I have seen a guy actually use it excludively.

I do live a more sheltered cycling life than you though, I'm not used to a lot of these things.

buffalo

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Nope first time. They have gone around buses and the like on the N11 by using the cycle lane, but this is the first time I have seen a guy actually use it excludively.

I do live a more sheltered cycling life than you though, I'm not used to a lot of these things.

I'm also amazed that it's the first time you've encountered it - it's about a twice-weekly occurrence on Clanbrassil St/Patrick St for me.

DirkVoodoo

buffalo wrote: »

I'm also amazed that it's the first time you've encountered it - it's about a twice-weekly occurrence on Clanbrassil St/Patrick St for me.

Ah, must be my lack of cycling through town, I only do it maybe once a week and never really around rush hour.

Chips Lovell

Canal is another great spot for that carry on. People also seem reluctant to overtake them, so you get stuck behind a moped and two or three bikes.

buffalo

el tonto wrote: »

Canal is another great spot for that carry on. People also seem reluctant to overtake them, so you get stuck behind a moped and two or three bikes.

Generally there isn't enough room to overtake them until a set of lights, and it's too dangerous to try when the car traffic starts moving - they're likely to move out into you.

I've tried admonishing some in the past - one in particular who cut out in front of me. I was met with scorn, and the accusation that all cyclists break red lights*. I'm not sure how he interpreted that as an excuse to use the cycle lane...

*he extended this to me, though we were stopped at a red light at the time. When I claimed I stopped at red lights, he called me a liar. :rolleyes:

72hundred

el tonto wrote: »

Canal is another great spot for that carry on. People also seem reluctant to overtake them, so you get stuck behind a moped and two or three bikes.

That happening on that strech of road drives me insane. Once, a few weeks ago, the moped rider was aware of my presence with the TK11 on high and completely refused to move out of the way. Eventually had to shout while cycling behind him to get him to move out of the lane. Had a few choice words for him too after been delayed for a few 100m's.

BostonB

Mopeds on the canal cycle lane are pretty common in my experience. Usually at the junction, they nip in and jump to the top.

concussion

petethedrummer wrote: »

@monument...Concussion was referring to a hearse. I think. had to re-read a few times.

Yep, it was a hearse, I didn't quote what I was referring to as it was in the post immediately above mine. The spot it happened is quite wide and I always go up the outside if no-one is indicating to take the same exit. I only waited behind because there was a coffin in the back - and he took the position I would have been going for even though he was going straight on.