FE-1's, are they only relevant for Ireland?

population

Just wondering about the relevance of taking the FE-1's if it was most likely that you would not be living in Ireland due to limited job opportunities etc?

I have a First from DCU in Journalism and I have been thinking about following a legal discipline ever since as I did very well in my Law class. However in short I do not think I will be staying in Ireland long term and I was just wondering if the FE-1's hold any weight in other countries?

Thanks

Jev/N

No good elsewhere; they're only entrance exams for the Law Society of Ireland, nothing more.

population

Ah was afraid of that. I kinda hoped because Ireland was a common law country they could possibly be used elsewhere but cest la vie.

Are we the only country that operates such a system where you can take a course for entrance exams without necessarily having completed a Law degree?

Dandelion6

population wrote: »

Are we the only country that operates such a system where you can take a course for entrance exams without necessarily having completed a Law degree?

In the US nobody has a law degree when they take the entrance exam.

dats_right

Dandelion6 wrote: »

In the US nobody has a law degree when they take the entrance exam.

OP, please ignore as this is 100% wrong!! In fact the opposite is true, virtually every State that I am aware of either requires the prospective Bar Exam student to possess a JD (US law degree equivalent of a BCL or LLB law degree in this jurisdiction), or alternatively be a practising lawyer in another State/ Jurisdiction.

To be honest, I also think that you need a far better reason to study to become a lawyer than merely "doing very well in my law class". Furthermore, I'm guessing that you probably only studied Media Law or somesuch, which in fairness is probably one of the more engaging and 'sexier' areas of law, it is unlikely you would have the same vigour had your course contained more mainstream, yet mundane areas such as; trusts, company, contract & eu & real property.

Aside from the present virtual impenetrable and soul destroying nature of trying to break into the profession, that most 'wannabe' solicitors will describe, and even then the very limited, nay on zero career opportunities for newly qualified solicitors, if that does not deter you; well, then I suggest you do a significant amount of further research about the career path. Oh and descriptions of what the job entails that is usually provided on post grad & career guidance type websites are so childish and off the mark as to be of no value whatsoever.

Dandelion6

dats_right wrote: »

OP, please ignore as this is 100% wrong!!

No it isn't wrong. population asked about the entrance exam, which is different to the bar exam. The entrance exam gets you into law school which is where you get your law degree. It's a post-graduate degree there - so students will already have an undergraduate degree, but not in law.

FWIW, California has an alternate route to the bar which doesn't require any degree.

dats_right

Dandelion6 wrote: »

No it isn't wrong. population asked about the entrance exam, which is different to the bar exam. The entrance exam gets you into law school which is where you get your law degree. It's a post-graduate degree there - so students will already have an undergraduate degree, but not in law.

Yes, it is wrong and the OP asked:

population wrote: »

Are we the only country that operates such a system where you can take a course for entrance exams without necessarily having completed a Law degree?

I think it is fairly clear that the OP is hoping to qualify without the necessity of obtaining a law degree, in the way one can in this jurisdiction . What you are talking about is doing an exam to be admitted to Law School in the US in order to study towards obtaining a 4 year law degree (JD) (with a conservative estimate of tuition fees being about $30k per year+living costs), after which the OP would have to study for the twice yearly State Bar Exam to be admitted as an attorney. In terms of feasibility, unless the OP has significant financial resources and 5 years to spare this option will simply not be a runner.

population wrote: »

FWIW, California has an alternate route to the bar which doesn't require any degree.

Yes, but as I understand it, the scheme is quite restrictive (I am not even sure that it is open to graduates) and would require the applicant to participate in an approved course of study in a law office or the chambers of a judge for four years and pass the bar exam. Obviously a very practical impediment to this would be the necessity of obtaining a visa.

The bottom line is that there are very few 'soft options' to becoming a lawyer in other countries the same way that there is here (i.e. Fe-1's or King's Inns Dip)..

Dandelion6

dats_right wrote: »

Yes, it is wrong and the OP asked:

Are we the only country that operates such a system where you can take a course for entrance exams without necessarily having completed a Law degree?

The answer to the question the OP asked is no. You can take a course for entrance exams (which in the US is the LSAT) without having completed a law degree. I did it myself. It is true that in most - not all - states you can't take the bar exam without having completed a law degree. But that's not the question the OP asked. The bar exam is not an entrance exam.

The two countries obviously have different legal education systems, but the entrance exams in both serve the same function - a gatekeeping function. Their purpose is to prevent all but a select percentage of the population from undertaking the course that leads to a professional qualification. The implication in OP's post is that there should be a further obstacle, namely, the requirement of a law degree before you undertake that course. That may be the situation in many other countries but it is not the case in the US: you get your degree through doing that course.

What you are talking about is doing an exam to be admitted to Law School in the US in order to study towards obtaining a 4 year law degree (JD) (with a conservative estimate of tuition fees being about $30k per year+living costs), after which the OP would have to study for the twice yearly State Bar Exam to be admitted as an attorney. In terms of feasibility, unless the OP has significant financial resources and 5 years to spare this option will simply not be a runner.

The JD is a three year degree (and it is even possible to do it in two), and most of the law students I knew in the US spent a relatively short amount of time studying for the bar after obtaining it. Certainly not a year, unless they failed it the first time.

Also, although the fees are very high (as they are for most third-level-and-above institutions in the US), there are many grants, loans and scholarships available for low-income students, as well as programmes that allow for tuition fees to be waived in exchange for working a certain number of years in public interest law. And because there is no mandatory apprenticeship period, it is possible for a student to qualify while working full-time and studying part-time. This is not the case here, where the prospect of having to survive on the PPC on whatever meagre student grants are available also makes this option "not a runner" to some people.

The bottom line is that there are very few 'soft options' to becoming a lawyer in other countries the same way that there is here

Well, I think the bottom line is that in both the US and Ireland it is possible for someone who has never studied law in their life to sit an entrance exam and, if they perform well enough on it, to then undertake a 2-3 year course of study at the end of which they can qualify as a lawyer.

dats_right

I think it is pretty clear that the OP had hoped not to have to complete a law degree in order to progress to becoming a lawyer and save in very exceptional circumstances this is not possible in the US. The OP would have to si

Dandelion6 wrote: »

Well, I think the bottom line is that in both the US and Ireland it is possible for someone who has never studied law in their life to sit an entrance exam and, if they perform well enough on it, to then undertake a 2-3 year course of study at the end of which they can qualify as a lawyer.

No, this is not so. Whilst this is possible in Ireland through the FE-1 route where after the Fe-1's the trainee can immediately commence their training as a lawyer; this is most certainly not the case in the US where it would be necessary to i) sit an entrance exam in order to be admitted to ii) a 3 year University Degree programme which would have to be followed by the iii) Bar exam. It is quite simply disingenuous to suggest that this latter approach could lead after 2-3 years study to admission as a lawyer, as could be the case here.

Dandelion6

dats_right wrote: »

No, this is not so. Whilst this is possible in Ireland through the FE-1 route where after the Fe-1's the trainee can immediately commence their training as a lawyer; this is most certainly not the case in the US where it would be necessary to i) sit an entrance exam in order to be admitted to ii) a 3 year University Degree programme which would have to be followed by the iii) Bar exam. It is quite simply disingenuous to suggest that this latter approach could lead after 2-3 years study to admission as a lawyer, as could be the case here.

It can and it does lead to admission as a lawyer generally after three years study. I'm baffled as to why you are suggesting the US process is significantly lengthier than that.

Here's an example. I took the LSAT in the final year of my undergraduate (non-law) degree programme, which finished in May 1996. As it happened I ended up deciding against law school but if I had continued, in normal circumstances I would have completed my JD by May 1999. I would then have sat the bar exam in July 1999. If I passed it on the first attempt it would then just be a matter of fulfilling the administrative requirements (paying fee, proving good character etc) and I would become a lawyer. That's roughly three years, plus a few months. And at the beginning of it I could have had no law experience or knowledge whatsoever - as the LSAT doesn't require you to know anything about law but is instead a test of cognitive skills.

In Ireland by contrast the entrance exams do require knowledge of law and so I started studying Irish law in November 2008 to sit my first FE1s in April 2009. I've passed them all now and if I find a training contract I'll begin the PPC-I in September 2010, sit an exam, start the training contract proper, go back to the PPC-II, sit another exam, then resume the training contract and complete it around September 2012, followed by the administrative formalities to finally become a lawyer. That's almost four years - longer than the process would have taken me in the US! And in both cases I started off by taking an entrance exam that did not require a law degree (as per OP's question).

dats_right

Dandelion6 wrote: »

It can and it does lead to admission as a lawyer generally after three years study. I'm baffled as to why you are suggesting the US process is significantly lengthier than that.

Because you said in the case of the US:

"a 2-3 year course of study at the end of which they can qualify as a lawyer",

which isn't realistic and the reality is that it will take much longer than that..

Taking your position at its absolute best a timeline would go something like this:

1. Even if no preperation is made for LSAT (entrance exam for Law School to study for Law Degree) is made the application process and results process will take at least 2-3 months and exam can only be sat every couple of months.

2. So if very organised (bearing in mind the multitude of other academic, background, references, etc requirements for application to Law School) and at a real push the absolute latest test a candidate could take would be October in order to have some chance of making the Law School application deadlines, which are usually 1st January-1st February. By the beginning of April [6 months after sitting LSATs) a candidate should start to hear re they their application to Law School has been succesful or not.

3. If succesful the candidate will commence Law School in September [almost 1 year after LSAT]. Candidate will study full time for three year JD degree (at a cost of well over €30k p/a! fees).

4 In final year of degree apply to sit Bar Exam in July of that year, results usually out November of that year [over 4 years since sitting LSATs).

5. Complete necessary formalities regarding actual admission to become attorney an absolute minimum of 3 months. [nearly 4.5 years after LSATs]

So from start (with no preperation) to finish line, with absolutely no delays of any sort and passing every exam and not missing a deadline the absolute minimum to time required to qualify in the US is well over 4 years!! And the reality of sitting the LSATs in October without any preperation is not at all realistic.

Now in Ireland, the minimum could be a lot shorter as I will illustrate:

1. Sit FE-1 prep course in Nov-March. Sit Fe-1's April.

2. Commence working in solicitors office immediately (if apprenticeship already obtained) Result for Fe-1's out end May- Beginning June. Pass all 8 (many people have achived this)

3. Commence PPCI in Blackhall place in Sept [less than 1 yr after commencing studies]. Indentures commence April (24 months with 4 months max credit permitted)

4. Return to Blackhall for PPCII following April. [2.5 years after commencing study]

5. Finish out remainder of indentures (claiming 4 months credit) indentures expire Dec and qualify January. [just slightly over three years since start to finish]

Okay, on average it will probably take candidates slightly longer than this in Ireland, ecpecially if they encounter difficulty in passing Fe-1's or obtaining apprenticeship but the example I have used has been a path which many, many candidates would have completed in that time frame. Whereas, the timeline in the US is at its best 4.5 years and in reality I think it would be easy to add at least another year or so on there, when one takes account of all the logistics, etc involved. In conclusion, 2-3 years in the case of the US is just not possible, the reality being a minimum 4-5 years!

enry

dats_right wrote: »

Because you said in the case of the US: which isn't realistic and the reality is that it will take much longer than that..

Taking your position at its absolute best a timeline would go something like this:

1. Even if no preperation is made for LSAT (entrance exam for Law School to study for Law Degree) is made the application process and results process will take at least 2-3 months and exam can only be sat every couple of months.

2. So if very organised (bearing in mind the multitude of other academic, background, references, etc requirements for application to Law School) and at a real push the absolute latest test a candidate could take would be October in order to have some chance of making the Law School application deadlines, which are usually 1st January-1st February. By the beginning of April [6 months after sitting LSATs) a candidate should start to hear re they their application to Law School has been succesful or not.

3. If succesful the candidate will commence Law School in September [almost 1 year after LSAT]. Candidate will study full time for three year JD degree (at a cost of well over €30k p/a! fees).

4 In final year of degree apply to sit Bar Exam in July of that year, results usually out November of that year [over 4 years since sitting LSATs).

5. Complete necessary formalities regarding actual admission to become attorney an absolute minimum of 3 months. [nearly 4.5 years after LSATs]

So from start (with no preperation) to finish line, with absolutely no delays of any sort and passing every exam and not missing a deadline the absolute minimum to time required to qualify in the US is well over 4 years!! And the reality of sitting the LSATs in October without any preperation is not at all realistic.

Now in Ireland, the minimum could be a lot shorter as I will illustrate:

1. Sit FE-1 prep course in Nov-March. Sit Fe-1's April.

2. Commence working in solicitors office immediately (if apprenticeship already obtained) Result for Fe-1's out end May- Beginning June. Pass all 8 (many people have achived this)

3. Commence PPCI in Blackhall place in Sept [less than 1 yr after commencing studies]. Indentures commence April (24 months with 4 months max credit permitted)

4. Return to Blackhall for PPCII following April. [2.5 years after commencing study]

5. Finish out remainder of indentures (claiming 4 months credit) indentures expire Dec and qualify January. [just slightly over three years since start to finish]

Okay, on average it will probably take candidates slightly longer than this in Ireland, ecpecially if they encounter difficulty in passing Fe-1's or obtaining apprenticeship but the example I have used has been a path which many, many candidates would have completed in that time frame. Whereas, the timeline in the US is at its best 4.5 years and in reality I think it would be easy to add at least another year or so on there, when one takes account of all the logistics, etc involved.

I appreciate what you’re saying, however, at present most of those training in blackhall have law degrees and besides that you need a degree anyway except in very limited circumstances to enter blackhall.
You might note it would be quicker and better for those looking to get into the legal side of things to become barristers. In that solicitor spend more time in college and more time training post entrance exams and won’t get the prestige nor will most of them have any work at the end of it. My point is its better being a poor barrister then a poor solicitor and if you take the price of the kings inn degree and the ppc-1 and ppc-2 the price is pretty much the same. On top of that there are five exams not eight to enter king inn and they don’t have to find an apprenticeship.

Dandelion6

dats_right, I don't have much time to devote to this as I have to catch a plane, but the extra lengths you're talking about are mainly waiting periods which don't involve the student actually doing anything (admittedly that's also the case with the gaps I pointed out before the PPC-I is started). If you condense the periods of actual study, examination and time on the training contract (where applicable) you'll find relatively little difference between the Irish and US systems. Both are certainly significantly less than in jurisdictions where you have to have a law degree before you can even sit your first entrance exam.

And the reality of sitting the LSATs in October without any preperation is not at all realistic.

My preparation consisted of attending a two-hour seminar, hosted by my university, and doing one sample exam at home. That's it. I even managed to get away on holiday the week before the LSAT and I never cracked a study book while I was gone. I still managed a 164 which is above the minimum for just about all but the Ivy League law schools (and I probably would have got more if I hadn't picked up a bug on my holiday). Most of my friends didn't do much more work than this.

The amount of preparation I had to put into the FE1s was, needless to say, much greater.

enry

Dandelion6 wrote: »

dats_right, I don't have much time to devote to this as I have to catch a plane, but the extra lengths you're talking about are mainly waiting periods which don't involve the student actually doing anything (admittedly that's also the case with the gaps I pointed out before the PPC-I is started). If you condense the periods of actual study, examination and time on the training contract (where applicable) you'll find relatively little difference between the Irish and US systems. Both are certainly significantly less than in jurisdictions where you have to have a law degree before you can even sit your first entrance exam.



My preparation consisted of attending a two-hour seminar, hosted by my university, and doing one sample exam at home. That's it. I even managed to get away on holiday the week before the LSAT and I never cracked a study book while I was gone. I still managed a 164 which is above the minimum for just about all but the Ivy League law schools (and I probably would have got more if I hadn't picked up a bug on my holiday). Most of my friends didn't do much more work than this.

The amount of preparation I had to put into the FE1s was, needless to say, much greater.

To add to the above it is worth noting that 100% of those doing the New York bar exams course in independent college last year passed. And you would presume that they are harder than the entrance exams to a f3ckin college.

considering the above you would think the standard here is for greater then in the US