Friend being messed around, now due in court!

cormie

Hi,
A few months ago, my friend stopped in a bus lane outisde the indicated bus lane operation times (it was a Sunday) to let her mother go to the ATM for what must have been less than 2 minutes around this area: http://maps.google.com/?q=53.330740,-6.233503 She wasn't even approached when she was pulled over, but at a set of lights which had gone red after she pulled out again.

The Garda who stopped her asked her to produce her insurance etc at her local station (Donnybrook) within 2 weeks. Both my friend and her mother are sure the Garda said 2 weeks.

My friend produced them on the 12th day, all valid, checked by Garda and that was that, or so she thought.

About 2 months ago, she got a summons for not having valid insurance I think and immediately tried to find out why. She rang the Garda station looking for the Garda, she called in more than once, took time off work to try and get to the bottom of why she had been summonsed even though all her certs etc were valid. She asked to speak to the Superintendent and was told you can't just speak to them. After being told the Garda would be in at a certain time again she went to the station with her details again, and asked the Garda at the counter to write a note saying she produced her details again and that they counteracted what the summons was for so would therefore be struck out.

A few days later she got another notice saying that she was now stopped due to an expired NCT cert. Her cert was valid, again she had to go through the same thing, ringing numerous times at the times she was told to ring, calling in at the times she was told to call in, taking time off work to do so. At this stage she had recycled her NCT cert as it expired about 3 weeks after she was pulled over and she had a new valid cert at this stage.

After another few attempts she finally got to speak to the Garda who issued the summons and was told that she'd just have to go to court and she could strike it out there for her, but to show up. The Garda said she told my friend to produce the details within 10 days (I know this to be the regular time) but my friend is sure, and so is her mother, that she said 2 weeks at the time they were stopped. It's her word against the Gardas now basically. The Garda said that THIS was the reasons that she got a summons so I think she's been given 3 reasons for the summons, the first being insurance, the 2nd being NCT and the third being failure to produce details within 10 days. Nothing to do with having stopped in an out of hours buslane.

To me this sounds a bit dodgy, what if she changes her mind and doesn't strike it out? My friend only has a verbal agreement which she has no proof was ever said. It seems the Garda is trying to justify the reason she pulled her in the first place as if she forgot or something.

The whole story just sounded really unfair and that my friend was being treated badly. She made numerous phone calls, took time off work more than once to call in, I think she had been to the station 5 times at least, was told that it would be fine and doesn't need to do anything else at least twice only to have another "reason" pop up and now she has to go to court where she's been told the Garda will strike it out but there's no proof she ever said this and judging by the service she's received thus far, I'm not so confident it will be this simple when she shows up to court.

I'm not 100% sure on the legalities of stopping a vehicle in an out of hours bus lane (which would be deemed the left most driving lane) when it has no double yellow lines etc, but this isn't what she's been summonsed for. She has done everything she was supposed to do, produce valid documents within 2 weeks and she still has to go to court :mad:

She's tired of dealing with it at this stage, I was saying she should write to the superintendent and everything to avoid having to go to court but she'd prefer not to risk any more upset and just go to court. She even had her own account of events typed out which I said I'd post here but she didn't want to in the end so this is my account. She just didn't want to tempt fate.

I don't like to see this kind of thing happening to anyone.

Just posting to see what is likely to happen in court. Neither of us have ever been before, I told her I'd go with her. I really feel it shouldn't have had to go this far though and this should have been something that was stricken out at the first notice of summons and something the Superintendent should have dealt with too.

If anyone has any experience of similar circumstances I'd appreciate hearing

AlekSmart

Which ATM was this ?
Which side of Pembroke Road ?
Was the Garda on foot-patrol or mobile ?

cormie

Not sure what ATM, it was going south though. Garda was on foot. Although this may have had relevancy and been an offence itself (I'm not sure of distance stopped from junction etc) it's not what has been followed up on.

1922

you may not get that advice here....a good solicitor would be advisible

although i do appreciate that'll cost money

BostonB

At what point will some body in the system say this is a complete waste of tax payers money and every ones time if this goes to court. Regardless if it was 2 weeks or 10 days. They should be embrassed dragging this out like this.

source

I can't speak for that Garda, but personally I know that sections 69 and 40 road traffic acts are drilled into you in templemore, the cover the demand for dl and INS within 10 days. having said that I am aware that many people who work 9-5 weeks think of 10days as 2 weeks because they think 10 days is two working weeks. I've taken to clarifying this with people when demanding documents.

kjbsrah

it is perfectly within a gardas right to ask a driver to produce his/her driving licence and/or his/her insurance certificate at a garda station of their choice within 10 days. the 10 days is the legal limit stated in law. also to produce an nct certificate. these lawful demands can be made for any number of reasons. if the passenger was also asked to produce the documents it is probably because the driver was a provisional driver (not sure what the case is here?).

ppl often produce outside the 10 days for a number of reasons - have to get copies of ins cert from insurance company, etc. depending on how the summons to court was processed (i.e. the garda issued a fixed charge penalty notice - hence the summons would be issued automatically if the production of documents was not logged on the garda computer within the 10 days, or if the garda generated the summons him/her self which does not seem likely as usually the garda does not usually check (due to work loads) exactly after 10 days but instead will wait maybe a bit longer and then check that documents were produced preferably within 10 days but as long as they were produced and all in order then the garda would probably have been happy with that and end of story - no summons issue).

but in the heel of the hunt, the lady needs to go to court with all her documents in order. she should have the name of the garda involved in her case, seek that garda out and produce all documents to him/her. the garda will then ask to have all matters struck out as long as he/she is happy that all are in order. judge may ask the lady why she did not produce them within the 10 days and then she can tell the judge what happened.

hope this helps.

cormie

Neither her or her mother work 9-5 at all, their working hours are all over the place and would definitely not mistake 10 days for 2 weeks. The girl in question also deals with bookings so it's highly unlikely she'd make such a mistake, a crazy good memory to boot

She was speaking of getting a solicitor herself but I was trying to advise against because it's such a minor offence under such ridiculous circumstances, that's of course if any offence has been committed at all, and the investment of a solicitor wouldn't be worth the saving of return from a possible fine avoidance.

Has a road traffic offence even been committed here? As I said, bus lane without double yellow lines during out of operation hours, but again, this wasn't even the pursued offence.

I was speaking to her since and she's just told me she has TWO summonses, one for this week for insurance, and one in mid January for NCT. She has never driven without valid NCT or Insurance.

cormie

Thanks for the input kjbsrah, my above reply was posted before I saw your reply.

She holds a full licence, not Irish, but an EU state. As far as I know, NO fixed penalty was issued, i.e, she was not sent a fine, or penalty points or anything like this, just a summons for offences not committed.

The Garda did say that the system automatically sends cases not cleared in 10 days to the court system and they automatically send out the summons which is probably the case here. She firmly believes she was told two weeks, whether the Garda will argue against this may pose a problem as the Garda may not want to be seen to make a mistake in her line of work, especially if the 10 day limit is so rigidly enforced.

So, there is no mention of her stopping at the side of the road, she was told to produce details in 2 weeks, she did on the 12th day and now she's had two separate summonses, one for this week for insurance and one for mid January from the same Garda for NCT, both of which certs were produced VALID on the 12th day and were valid at the time of the alleged offence. I think it may also state on the summons that the details were not present at the time of the alleged offence at the location of being stopped, but they were.

She has all details, even a letter written by another Garda in the same station, signed saying that all details were produced and valid and there is no further action to be taken. This was after she got the summons, she did not get this signed letter on the 12th day but I think I remember her saying she got a receipt?

kjbsrah

Cormie - i am sure this will be fine. the only thing the judge will want to see is that at the time the lady was stopped was that she was insured, her vehicle held a valid nct, and that she held an appropriate licence for the vehicle that was being driven.

the judge will not be interested in the 10 days. however, if the lady did not turn up in court the judge will presume she was not insured, held no nct, and was not licenced. and the book would be thrown at her.

it does not matter what she was actually stopped for - a disc might have not been properly displace (part of it could have been unintentionally folded and not properly legible, etc). but to prove no offence was being committed she will need to go to court. i appreciate that for a law abiding person this will be a big deal. this happens quite a bit with documents not being produced within the 10 days (no point aguing anything else to a judge - he has a tonne of cases to get through and he just wants to see a 'humble' person in front of him).

gardai get up in front of judges and ask for cases to be struck out all the time with respect to traffic offences - and the reason is usually that the person has come to court, all documents in order and the prosecuting garda is happy that all is in order. thats generally why a person hears the term 'application to strick out judge - documents produced in court and all in order'. tell the lady that she may hear the court clerke announce at the start of court that any person with documents should produce them to the relevant garda in order to save court time.

she will be fine - especially if the garda is aware that she will be in court and that there has been a mix up (10 days or 2 weeks - but that the documents were produced).

Mr. Presentable

Cormie, forget about the bus lane - there's no reference in the summons so it's irrelevent.

If she goes to court and can show her insurance was in place the judge will accept that.

Likewise with the NCT - if she can show it was in place.

The fact that she has an out of state licence, does this mean English is not her first language? Could it explain the confusion?

All in all, I'd say she has nothing to worry about.

OP, read your post again. The Garda said that she would STRIKE OUT the summons. The garda obviously issued the summons after teh 10 days were up but after receiving the correct documentation agreed not to procede with a prosecution. This happens ALL THE TIME.

And you do not need to commit an offence for gardai to legally demand your driving licence / certificate of insurance / NCT certificate / DOE cert.

cormie

Thanks again for the replies. English is not her first language, but she's got better English than some of my Irish friends This definitely wouldn't be part of the confusion

Glad to hear that it should be ok anyway, I was just afraid of the Garda fobbing her off and telling her she's going to strike it out when her intentions may be vindictive and she ends up accusing her of all sorts in front of the judge and it would be her word against the lady in question.

I guess there's only need to mention that she was told 2 weeks if the Garda doesn't intend to strike it out when my friend produces the valid documents and it ends up going to the judge. If it's mentioned earlier, she may get defensive at the thought of her having actually said 2 weeks.

tracekins

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for the replies. English is not her first language, but she's got better English than some of my Irish friends This definitely wouldn't be part of the confusion

Glad to hear that it should be ok anyway, I was just afraid of the Garda fobbing her off and telling her she's going to strike it out when her intentions may be vindictive and she ends up accusing her of all sorts in front of the judge and it would be her word against the lady in question.

I guess there's only need to mention that she was told 2 weeks if the Garda doesn't intend to strike it out when my friend produces the valid documents and it ends up going to the judge. If it's mentioned earlier, she may get defensive at the thought of her having actually said 2 weeks.

Why would you think the garda's intentions would be to be vindictive?? Once she said she would strike it out, that is the end off it!!!

BostonB

Bitter experience maybe? Police are human and make mistakes. But they hate admitting it.

cormie

tracekins wrote: »

Why would you think the garda's intentions would be to be vindictive?? Once she said she would strike it out, that is the end off it!!!

Yes, I hope, but as BostonB pointed out, she is human and humans have many different emotions. I would only be afraid her intentions would be vindictive for the very reason the word exists. It's a human emotion and nobody knows what she's been through in her life and what way she has been emotionally constructed.

This is nothing to do with her being a Garda. I only view people on their individual merit and don't judge them based on their profession, race, religion or any other societal badge. I don't particularly agree with addressing a judge or anyone in a hierarchy position any different to the the man beside me who's up for a summons either. Some may think this would be disrespect but it's the complete opposite, it's seeing the person for who they are as opposed to what they are portrayed as and what the ego has built itself to be.

pah

cormie wrote: »

It's a human emotion and nobody knows what she's been through in her life and what way she has been emotionally constructed.

What are you on about?

cormie wrote: »

This is nothing to do with her being a Garda. I only view people on their individual merit and don't judge them based on their profession, race, religion or any other societal badge.

But you'll judge them on the fact they mey or may not have some emotional problem or vindictiveness

cormie

Not at all, I was simply expressing cause for worry.

Was in court today anyway and the first summons was struck out without her even making a step towards the top of the room having talked to the Garda beforehand.

Pretty much turned out exactly as described above, thanks for all the replies!

BostonB

I wonder what that cost.

Corcioch

More evidence of that God Awful FCPN system at work!!!! . . . .



Im sick to death of having to correct the mistakes it creates . . . . . . . . . .



For a system that was supposed to increase productivity by use of IT systems it has in my experience HALVED productivity. The amount of man hours and the cost to the state involved in all such court cases as described in the outcome of this tale must be quite considerable. Hours that should be spent out on the street.

Who ever "invented" the entire FCPN IT system should be shot at dawn, his/ her family billed for the bullet and we should get back to the old system . . . . . .because it worked alot better imo.