Pair GAP Pre-73's or a GR ME1-NV

Elder Roche

What would you advise? A stereo pair of Golden Age project Pre 73's or a GR ME1 - NV. I was intending to buy the stereo pair to mic an upright piano. If I was to get the GAP's I could also afford another preamp or a channel strip for Less than €1,000, but I wouldn't be able to afford such a strip with the Great River, and as both these preamps are neve hybrids I don't think it is optimal to own both. So what do you guys think? Can you give me some advice on what is the best set-up? Thanks!

PaulBrewer

Elder Roche wrote: »

What would you advise? A stereo pair of Golden Age project Pre 73's or a GR ME1 - NV. I was intending to buy the stereo pair to mic an upright piano. If I was to get the GAP's I could also afford another preamp or a channel strip for Less than €1,000, but I wouldn't be able to afford such a strip with the Great River, and as both these preamps are neve hybrids I don't think it is optimal to own both. So what do you guys think? Can you give me some advice on what is the best set-up? Thanks!

Going into what ?

Elder Roche

It will be going into a 003 rack with protools 8. What d'ya reckon?

PaulBrewer

I reckon it probably won't matter too much when the 003s Line amp and converters mash it up for you ....

Remember in the chain between sound and digits it's only as strong as it's weakest link , in this instance maybe the A2D.

Elder Roche

That doesn't sound good at all. This is a studio that is only being put together. I haven't bought the digidesign system yet, but I felt it was a no brainer as the majority of similar home studio owners are running it. Your advice would be greatly appreciated Paul. In fact it's my plan to head out to you. Thanks!

Seziertisch

I would say that the API A2D or the Neve 1073 DPD hooked up via SPDIF to your budget interface of choice is probably the best way to go.

The quality of the pres and AD conversion in both cases is excellent.

Otherwise, in terms of makes of pres that I have heard in person, Phoenix Audio is the one that really, really impressed. Their stuff offers an amazing combination of fast and thick. There isn't anything I couldn't imagine it not excelling on. A twist of the gain knob takes you from open and euphonic to gritty and euphonic. I know that Trackmixstudio who posts here traded in a 2-channel pre of theirs recently at Studiosolutions (he was trading up to a 2-channel with eq from Phoenix Audio). If you do decide to go the separate pres and conversion route, this would definitely be one to check out.

Elder Roche

Thanks alot. So basically I need a preamp with AD conversion??? I never even considered this. But it makes perfect sense. It's back to the drawing board so.

Elder Roche

Hey, just a thought. What preamps would you go for in an API Lunchbox? Also I heard on gearslutz someone getting Blacklion AD mods onto their 003 with great improvement. Do you know anything about this? Is it an option?

Seziertisch

Elder Roche wrote: »

Thanks alot. So basically I need a preamp with AD conversion??? I never even considered this. But it makes perfect sense. It's back to the drawing board so.

There is not much point in having a pro level pre and then hooking it up to something with an inferior analogue stage and only alright AD converters. If you convert (like with the A2D or the DPD) before hitting your budget interface, the analogue stages and the conversion in your interface won't matter.

Seziertisch

What is your budget, Elder? And what other gear do you have already?

Elder Roche

My budget is around €4,000 for the recording set-up alone. I have nice high end mics, and decent monitors, but over the years I have been piecing bits here and bits there, and never really putting together a decent enough set-up to start recording album quality sessions. This is why I want to to get a proper set-up now.

Seziertisch

Mmmm, considering your budget, you should maybe check out the Prism Orpheus. There is loads of stuff on Gearslutz about it. I haven't used it myself but I know people who have used other stuff from Prism and they swear by it. The Orpheus would give you excellent AD and DA, enough mic pres to potentially track a full band (or at least a full drum kit), as well as great sounding analogue stages throughout. It would be an excellent centrepiece for a fully functional home studio. What it wouldn't give you would be transformer and tube mojo.

Otherwise, if you reckon that you are only ever going to be recording a couple of tracks at a time and that you aren't going to be doing any serious mixing on your set up, the A2D or the DPD would be a good choice.

Also in terms of nice mics, what do you have? If you don't have an AEA R84 (or other similar quality ribbon) you really should consider getting one. For the instruments you listed an R84 would be very useful.

Elder Roche

Hoo. That's pretty expensive piece of equipment. Alot of things have to come into play if this was even a consideration. How well does the Prism work with digidesign controller 8, and protools 8? I want to get something that is very midi friendly too.

My mics are Octave MK012 matched pair. These were alot cheaper when I bought them. Fantastic little mics. I also have Microtech Gefell M940, which I would love to have a match for. This is a beast of a mic, that offers beautiful warm results. I have also recently purchased a Beyer M610 SM to try out as a live vocal mic. Haven't got to try it yet, but it sounds great on a snare. AT 4040 which I love, probably as much as my Gefell. I've been keeping my eye out for a Colt 4040 ribbon, but haven't got my hands on one yet. I also really want to get an STC 4021, but again they're rare enough to find. Amazing room mics though.

madtheory

Hi Elder Roche, you're thinking along the right lines... we shouldn't be debating the A to D when we don't know if the control room has been acoustically treated. You say your monitors are high end though, that's a good start!

You're not going to hear the difference with mic pre and converter if you're monitoring is not high resolution- that means spending more than about €1200 on the speakers, and treating the room for roughly the same money if it's DIY.

IMO the 003 conversion is not as bad as is being made out here. To improve it, you're looking at the likes of Benchmark and Lavry, which are one direction of conversion and only two channels, for the boxes inside your budget. That will give you an idea of what to aim for with price and features. I don't think the built in A to D mentioned will be much of an improvement, though the mic pres would be.

The Blacklion mods are snakeoil. He failed to respond to calls from electronics engineers to back up his claims on the Sound on Sound forum. Steer clear. It's better value to just buy good boxes in the first place, not attempt to second guess the designers of budget gear.

The 003 mic pres are certainly easy to improve on. The Focusrite Octopre would be a step up. You can get that with built in A to D to give you another 8 analogue inputs, which might be useful. The Orpheus can be used in the same way with a 003, seamless, no MIDI problems. But as you say, big money!

Are you set on Pro Tools? I am too, but if you're not, you can save about €1000 (i.e. the cost of an 003) by using software that can talk to your choice of hardware.

Finally, I have no idea of your skill in this area, but it's actually quite difficult to record an upright piano. They are designed with compactness being the primary goal, tone is secondary. The room needs to be right. This is not difficult to achieve, but does require some effort. If you want to avoid pedal noise you have to mic the back of the piano, and this is the bit that is usually against the wall. Miking there usually gives the best tone, but not always. That's assuming the piano is post 1940ish, or a Steinway, otherwise the pedal action will be noisy no matter what you do. And you need a tame piano tuner also.

So basically, Mr. Roche, if you want good advice on this issue, we need more info!

About mics- I don't see how your budget will stretch to posh ribbons, but it looks like you're sorted for good mics already. Ya, the Audio Technica LD condensers are very classy, and superb value for money. I'm a big fan too. Are you confusing the STC4021 with the 4038? The 4021 is a moving coil, the 4038 is the ribbon mic that all others are judged on . Have you used a 4021? What's it like? The M610SM is fab.

Seziertisch

Also is this a mobile set up or do you have a set place to record in?

studiorat

Hey Elder.
How's the form?

Did you consider getting Logic?
Buying a DAW from the ground up, I'd really consider Logic 9 instead of 'tools.
All depends on the computer though...

Elder Roche

I will be buying IK Multimedia Arc System Room Correction Kit to help me with treating the room. I don't want it completely dead, but I want to be able to control the brightness. Bass bins for the corners. Acoustic blocks behind the desk, on the roof just above the desk, there is a part of the roof which drops down to another level half way down the room, I am going to line this with diffusive cones, Acoustic Blocks along the wall 3/4 way down, Bass bins in the far corners, and a diffuser at the end wall (which is a window). That's how I see it working anyway. The room has been cleared and bar the piano and a couch is completely empty.

Hey Studiorat, how are things? Good to see ya the other week. I've taught myself on Cubase, and tried out Nuendo. I was going to go with Nuendo 4, but what changed my mind to learn protools, is the accessibility to other recording set-ups that my mates have, and to online tutorials. I haven't even considered Logic. I don't even think I've seen it up and running. So advice here is appreciated too.

The piano, I understand, is going to take alot of work trying to get a good sound from, if not a great sound. I have also realized that I may have to search for a grand piano when necessary. I do have electric keyboard too for bigger songs where the piano sound isn't in the forefront and can afford to cut through more.

So Seziertisch as this will be making up a (hopefully) decent home studio, I do understand the necessity of mobile recordings. Yes it does have to be mobile.

Hey guys, posting my dilemma here has been the most frustrating, yet best decision I could have made. There's alot more that has to be taken into consideration then I previously thought. Thanks for you help.

studiorat

I had a bit of a play on logic 9 last week. It's the dogs it really is. Except it's only available on a Mac... Worth a look though.

Elder Roche

I'll check it out. Thanks. I'm going over to the dark side. Macbook Pro, to keep it portable.

Seziertisch

In terms of home recording, you might not have a good enough recording space available to you, and you may find that there is somewhere you can go to which is much more suited to the task. Even ignoring room treatments etc. you should be aiming to find somewhere with solid walls and a solid floor. A lot of dwelling houses don't offer this. In my experience rooms with plasterboard walls tend to sound a bit sh1t and are quite unpredictable, particularly with louder sources.

If this is the case you might find yourself going mobile more often than you expected.

PaulBrewer

Elder Roche wrote: »

I will be buying IK Multimedia Arc System Room Correction Kit to help me with treating the room. .

Pants !

Elder Roche

Hey Paul, is that pants to the previous reply? I hope so, as room options don't exist. However, mobile recording is an extra bonus, and not an alternative.

Seziertisch

I think what Paul means is that that particular room treatment kit won't do much for you. Anything foam based is not going to offer you the absorption/diffusion you need.

I was recently at a studio with all homemade absorbers/diffusers and it sounded great. The guy who owned the place put quite a bit of research into measuring room modalities etc. and coming up with the appropriate dimensions necessary. I gather he read up on the subject extensively.

That said, if your tracking room has plasterboard walls and a loose floating floor treating the room is probably going to be a lot trickier. Louder sources will cause the entire room to vibrate.

Elder Roche

Hmmm! This is something I'm not just going to throw up on the walls. I am in the process of learning as much as I can about it. There is no other option at present. The room is a converted garage with 3.5 of the 4 walls solid brick. Yes these have plaster boards covering them. There is two points that I can see as a problem. The door has been moved. It's previous location has been badly boarded, and is basically hollow inside. This part of the wall will be directly behind the left monitor. I don't know what I'm going to do about this and may need someone to come out and have a look. The other problem I see is the door itself. This is not a perfect situation by any means, and I'm not comparing it to a studio quality room, but it's the most cost effective way for me to record. I recorded my 1st album in a sitting room, and a farmhouse. I expect this to be sonicly better, but I'm not unhappy with my first outing by any means.

www.myspace.com/elderroche

Do you not think the IK ARC system is worth buying?

Paul are you against home recording set-ups in general? I'm finding it hard to understand what you're trying to say. Perhaps you could clarify for me. I am just trying to come up with the best set-up within a certain budget. Something that can be built on.

Seziertisch

Elder Roche wrote: »

Hmmm! This is something I'm not just going to throw up on the walls. I am in the process of learning as much as I can about it. There is no other option at present. The room is a converted garage with 3.5 of the 4 walls solid brick. Yes these have plaster boards covering them. There is two points that I can see as a problem. The door has been moved. It's previous location has been badly boarded, and is basically hollow inside. This part of the wall will be directly behind the left monitor. I don't know what I'm going to do about this and may need someone to come out and have a look. The other problem I see is the door itself. This is not a perfect situation by any means, and I'm not comparing it to a studio quality room, but it's the most cost effective way for me to record. I recorded my 1st album in a sitting room, and a farmhouse. I expect this to be sonicly better, but I'm not unhappy with my first outing by any means.

www.myspace.com/elderroche

Do you not think the IK ARC system is worth buying?

Paul are you against home recording set-ups in general? I'm finding it hard to understand what you're trying to say. Perhaps you could clarify for me. I am just trying to come up with the best set-up within a certain budget. Something that can be built on.

I don't know whether the acoustics speed dating thing that Audiowarehouse was organising with Munro is past, but that might be something for you.

RealEstateKing

(Free to scroll on by):)

If you're not recording in an acoustically perfect space already (i.e. a custom designed recording studio) dont sweat your preamps and convertors. The differences vary between extremely subtle to indistinguishable, and will be as nothing compared to the crappy qualities of your room. Almost all preamps/convertors made at all budgets (a few dogs excepted) are fine for recording any type of music now. Anyone who tells you any different is selling something.

Spend the money on acoustic treatment, voice training lessons, or a nice holiday in the sun with a notebook and an acoustic guitar. Would do your music exponentially more good.

Seziertisch

RealEstateKing wrote: »

(Free to scroll on by):)

If you're not recording in an acoustically perfect space already (i.e. a custom designed recording studio) dont sweat your preamps and convertors. The differences vary between extremely subtle to indistinguishable, and will be as nothing compared to the crappy qualities of your room. Almost all preamps/convertors made at all budgets (a few dogs excepted) are fine for recording any type of music now. Anyone who tells you any different is selling something.

Spend the money on acoustic treatment, voice training lessons, or a nice holiday in the sun with a notebook and an acoustic guitar. Would do your music exponentially more good.

Its your use of acoustically perfect that is the problem. If you are recording in an acoustically problematic space you need to do something about it. Define perfect. There are plenty of great sounding rooms and studios that are far from it but give great sounding results.

Also, every time this topic comes up you post that the difference between mic pres is negligible, although it would also seem that you personally have never used any pres that could be called high-end ... There are a number of dealers around Dublin who offer demos of gear with no obligation to purchase, I'd suggest you get in contact with one of them and see for yourself what all the fuss is about.

Anyone who can't hear a difference between a proper high-end pre and a budget one, even when working in a completely untreated/unsuitable space, needs to have their ears checked. No, a high-end pre won't solve problems with the room, but nor will it improve a singers intonation or fix guitar tuning or whatever. All else being equal though, a good pre will improve the quality of your recordings.

madtheory

Yes, the IK thing is a waste of money. It's just eq, that will only work if you're prepared to clamp your head to one point in the room when mixing!

"Perfect acoustics" does need clarification! The control room and the studio must have different acoustics. The control room needs to be flat with very short reverb. The studio need not be flat, but it needs to be controlled somewhat. There are useful compromises, I go into that in a little more detail on my blog.

I suggest you take a look at some articles on acoustics, in this order:

1. http://www.madtheory.com/wordpress/?p=123
2. http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html
3. BBC Guide to Acoustic Practice

Then Google for Superchunks, and go make yourself some of those!

Seziertisch

madtheory wrote: »

Yes, the IK thing is a waste of money. It's just eq, that will only work if you're prepared to clamp your head to one point in the room when mixing!

"Perfect acoustics" does need clarification! The control room and the studio must have different acoustics. The control room needs to be flat with very short reverb. The studio need not be flat, but it needs to be controlled somewhat. There are useful compromises, I go into that in a little more detail on my blog.

I suggest you take a look at some articles on acoustics, in this order:

1. http://www.madtheory.com/wordpress/?p=123
2. http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html
3. BBC Guide to Acoustic Practice

Then Google for Superchunks, and go make yourself some of those!

The last 2 links were good, but the first one ... I mean the guy is basing his look on early 90s Tom Cruise.

madtheory

I agree that pre amps are over rated. If you've spent a fortune on room acoustics, speakers, great instruments and great mics then great, go to town on mic pre amps. But if you're a pianist, save up for a grand piano before forking out for esoteric mic pre amps!!

Seziertisch wrote: »

The last 2 links were good, but the first one ... I mean the guy is basing his look on early 90s Tom Cruise.

LOL! Yes, the resemblence is a cross one has to bear...

Seziertisch

madtheory wrote: »

I agree that pre amps are over rated. If you've spent a fortune on room acoustics, speakers, great instruments and great mics then great, go to town on mic pre amps. But if you're a pianist, save up for a grand piano before forking out for esoteric mic pre amps!!


LOL! Yes, the resemblence is a cross one has to bear...

The same is true for every instrument. The source is king.

RealEstateKing

Anyone who can't hear a difference between a proper high-end pre and a budget one, even when working in a completely untreated/unsuitable space, needs to have their ears checked.

Guess I need my ears checked so. I cant hear a musically significant difference between most of them. And I'd be willing to bet the (admittedly tiny) contents of my bank account, that blind, you can't either.

Anyway, just thought I'd chime in with my unpopular opinions. Somebody has to protect the ordinary folk from this nonsense, especially in a recession. To the Bat-Mobile!

Elder Roche

Okay, I appreciate all the advice. However, I never once mentioned a budget for acoustic treatment, either hi-end, nor low-end. Nor did I mention using anything less than proper acoustic tiles and diffusers. I think the topic on this thread has gone off the point. I understand that pre-amps are not a substitute for good sounding recordings, but I know that they do affect the sound regardless of the environment. It is up to me to send the best signal through those pre-amps. I am not a novice when it comes to recording. However, neither am I scientist searching for measurable perfection.

Advise like getting voice lessons is just plain offensive. And getting a grand piano is plain absurd.

Changing room is not an option. It is 96" X 206" and unless I win the lottery it's going stay that size for at least the next year. My project has to be up and running as soon as possible, as I have a deadline.

Sorry if there is a tone to this reply, but my options plainly don't allow me to take on board alot of your advice. However, I do know the importance of acoustic treatment, and that is on the cards.

Okay, if I haven't annoyed everyone, I am back looking at the Apogee Rosetta, as it seems to support new Protools 8, and looks like a great unit. If I was to use midi with this would a simple USB midi controller suffice.

Also the Steinberg MR816csx looks great if I was to stay with them, but I heard that it's not yet up to scratch with drivers, etc. But the pres and converters are apparently great. The Nuendo 4 package would bump the price up quite a bit as well.

My head is wrecked!

Seziertisch

RealEstateKing wrote: »

Guess I need my ears checked so. I cant hear a musically significant difference between most of them. And I'd be willing to bet the (admittedly tiny) contents of my bank account, that blind, you can't either.

Anyway, just thought I'd chime in with my unpopular opinions. Somebody has to protect the ordinary folk from this nonsense, especially in a recession. To the Bat-Mobile!

We're talking concrete comparisons here. What pres have you compared specifically?

Seziertisch

Elder Roche wrote: »

Okay, I appreciate all the advice. However, I never once mentioned a budget for acoustic treatment, either hi-end, nor low-end. Nor did I mention using anything less than proper acoustic tiles and diffusers. I think the topic on this thread has gone off the point. I understand that pre-amps are not a substitute for good sounding recordings, but I know that they do affect the sound regardless of the environment. It is up to me to send the best signal through those pre-amps. I am not a novice when it comes to recording. However, neither am I scientist searching for measurable perfection.

Advise like getting voice lessons is just plain offensive. And getting a grand piano is plain absurd.

Changing room is not an option. It is 96" X 206" and unless I win the lottery it's going stay that size for at least the next year. My project has to be up and running as soon as possible, as I have a deadline.

Sorry if there is a tone to this reply, but my options plainly don't allow me to take on board alot of your advice. However, I do know the importance of acoustic treatment, and that is on the cards.

Okay, if I haven't annoyed everyone, I am back looking at the Apogee Rosetta, as it seems to support new Protools 8, and looks like a great unit. If I was to use midi with this would a simple USB midi controller suffice.

Also the Steinberg MR816csx looks great if I was to stay with them, but I heard that it's not yet up to scratch with drivers, etc. But the pres and converters are apparently great. The Nuendo 4 package would bump the price up quite a bit as well.

My head is wrecked!

The Rosetta is a solid unit. That leaves you with the decision on you pres. Once you get to a certain level it it a matter of taste as opposed to better or worse. In terms of the software go with what you know. Yeah, the protools format would be handy if you were getting it mixed somewhere else, but if you are methodical in the labelling and exporting of the files, it can still be done with not much hassle. Seeing as you know Cubase already, I would say stick with it.

Elder Roche

Thank Seziertisch.

I am most likely going to get it mixed elsewhere. Gonna give it a go myself, but I know it'll be done much better elsewhere, and there's a few people I respect and trust in this field.

madtheory

If realestateking and Sezertisch could take their second round of the mic pre argument to another thread or PM, that would be helpful I think?

Elder Roche wrote: »

Okay, I appreciate all the advice. However, I never once mentioned a budget for acoustic treatment, either hi-end, nor low-end. Nor did I mention using anything less than proper acoustic tiles and diffusers. I think the topic on this thread has gone off the point.

I only raised it because worries me that you mention "acoustic tiles" and "bass bins". These are incorrect terms, which is why I linked to the acoustics articles. The Ethan Winer one in particular is brilliantly presented, I found it very helpful myself when I was learning about acoustics. I'm still learning! I think you might save a lot of money by investing some time in reading that material.

I was not suggesting you purchase a grand piano, I was trying to illustrate the scale of spending with an analogy, perhaps I exaggerated a little. It was not meant as serious advice. Sorry about that!

More importantly, you seem to be aware that room treatment is a primary consideration over mic pres, so that's good

Elder Roche wrote: »

Changing room is not an option. It is 96" X 206" and unless I win the lottery it's going stay that size for at least the next year. My project has to be up and running as soon as possible, as I have a deadline.

If you read the little piece on my blog, I suggest ways around having only one room to work in.

That's good advice to stick with Cubase. The new version lets you export tracks very easily for mixing in another DAW. If you're going to get someone else to mix, you don't need Nuendo.

Finally, you have to expect differing points of view and OT discussions in a thread like this, it's the nature of the beast. No one here knows where you're coming from, hence the advice you found insulting. Note that I did point this issue out earlier. Anyway, it's all free advice, so that's good!

PaulBrewer

RealEstateKing wrote: »

Guess I need my ears checked so. I cant hear a musically significant difference between most of them. And I'd be willing to bet the (admittedly tiny) contents of my bank account, that blind, you can't either.

Anyway, just thought I'd chime in with my unpopular opinions. Somebody has to protect the ordinary folk from this nonsense, especially in a recession. To the Bat-Mobile!

Between which ones Real ? and listening on what , through what ?

Somebody does indeed need to protect the ordinary folk from nonsense ... :mad:

Elder Roche

Hey Madtheory, your advice is greatly appreciated, and very much taken on board. I have been reading up and doing as much ground work as I possibly can to get this right, and I felt I was getting nowhere. But thanks for clarifying.

fitz

Elder, the better the convertors, the better you're pre's and mics will sound. While the 003's convertors wouldn't be in the same ballpark as Apogee, that doesn't mean a nice pre is a waste of money. If you're not already tied to ProTools, I'd definitely look at Logic. You're more free to choose your interface then. An Apogee Ensemble or a Fireface would both be good options. Logic will let you export all tracks in a project, so easy to give to someone else to mix in ProTools or any other DAW.

I haven't tried them, but as soon as I can afford to, I'll be buying a unit or two from IGS Audio. Might be worth looking into, as they do clones of Neve 1272's and some nice looking valve gear. They seem well established in Poland.

Best of luck getting everything sorted.

madtheory

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Between which ones Real ? and listening on what , through what ?

Somebody does indeed need to protect the ordinary folk from nonsense ... :mad:

Time for a BLIND A/B TEST...

i57dwun4yb1pt8

sorry about the spelling - quick typing

my ears are absolutely trashed - im medically considered deaf -

yet I can hear the difference betweeen a track recorded with the same mic on different pres , its not all about sound , its about transients and overall realism as well as sound. or clarity .

particularly between a pro pre and a built in interface pre.
to me a cheaper pre has a more "blurred " or unfocussed sound compared to a pro pre - particulalry in a mix.- its sublte in most cases - and obvious as hell in others.

so I would get your hearing checked. - or may be change the way you listen in some cases.

i can eaven hear a difference between a DAV bg1 and an Adesigns pacifica - which suprised me - both are very good - i found the dav cleaner and kinda clinical sounding - while the pacifcia was warmer and comfy sounding if thta makes sense - still its sublte though.


to me - someone as talented as Mr Roche - needs to concentrate on the music - so room treatment would be the prime candidate here - mix room and or recording room . then choose comfortable dependable gear that you know is good easiy to get results with - and will last.
a mid to pro level set up that does not get in the way of the creative process.


you have good sources and monitors - I would go with an RME fireface , or tc konnekt 48 , one good stereo pre and use reaper or cubase.
and treat the rooms well.

dav nagle

madtheory wrote: »

Time for a BLIND A/B TEST...

Well with all due respect an A/B in this area would be a no brainer. Anything going directly into a 003/002/001 will sound like a man standing on a snakes tail.


The hisss off those things combined with the scabby headroom.

madtheory

I was referring to pre amps only, that's why I quoted Paul's post... it wouldn't be much of a pre amp test if AD distortion was a factor.