I Never Agreed To A Pay-Cut

TFM1

Hi, this is my first post and I apologise if this topic has been covered already but I did have a look through the forum and couldn't find it.

Basically, a few months ago the management in my company called a general meeting for all staff and announced that there had been a pay-cut "across the board" beginning with that months pay check. I stress that it was announced and not suggested, and that no one was actually asked if we accepted this.

So we all were down 10%. Then a few months later we were reduced another 10% in exactly the same way.

• Basically, my question is; do we have any legal right regarding these pay-cuts?

gerrycollins

basically they can so long as they give sufficent notice as no doubt says so on your contract something like the following

"we reserve the right to make ammendment and adjustments with 30 days propr notice"

the only challenge you would have to this would be if it contravened existing employment law or the law of the land. If its honestly in the best interest of the company you would have a very hard time trying to convince the appropiate authorities of the opposite.

Nody

Well if you don't complain and raise an issue about it then it becomes defacto standard even though you have not signed a new contract. Noted above about notice period etc. which they most likely broke. What you need to ask yourself though is if you could get a new job with in the time of a statutory redundancy (the most likely response to not accepting the change).

uoluol

That's how it feels to be a public sector worker - I never agreed to a pay cut but it has been imposed. I'm afraid it's the climate out there - I believe many private sector workers are also having pay cuts imposed on them with the unspoken threat of redundancy if it is not accepted. I really feel for you op, not really sure if there is a positive outcome for you in this horrible situation.

golden

What choice do you have the dole? unlike the public sector that has been made permanant they have a job for life unlike the private sector.

They were quick to demand benchmarking but now in this climate very slow to benchmarking as most salaries/wages have declined. We are all feeling the pinch both public and private.

LegacyUser

Hang on a second. I was TOLD I was taking a paycut. Where does this "ask" notion come from?They're hardly going to come in and ask would you mind if we take your money away?I'm not mad about it, but I'd rather have the job with less money, than no job.Either that or I'm just naive, thinking that's normal.But the whole thing has been pretty civilized where we are, so maybe that's just me.

Noodles5

According to the labour relations commissioner they have to give you their proposal for the pay cut in writing and it has to be agreed by yourself before they can legally enforce it.

padser

gerrycollins wrote: »

basically they can so long as they give sufficent notice as no doubt says so on your contract something like the following

"we reserve the right to make ammendment and adjustments with 30 days propr notice"

the only challenge you would have to this would be if it contravened existing employment law or the law of the land. If its honestly in the best interest of the company you would have a very hard time trying to convince the appropiate authorities of the opposite.

That's complete Bull**** (sorry for being harsh but people writing things like this irritate me though - if you don't know anything about a topid - don't post something that seems authoritative - its really misleading for people looking for advice)

Legally speaking (at least in 99% of cases and almost certainly in the one mentioned) it is not legal for an employer to unilaterally change the rate of pay for an employee.

You have signed a contract (or there is an implicit one that's not written down) at a certain rate. The employer has no general right to unilaterally amend it.

HOWEVER - in practice of course, especially in the current economic situation, if an employee was to refuse to accept the pay reduction then you run the risk of being made redundant

So - while your employer may not have made this clear to you - effectively what they are saying is

"you have a contract where it says we will pay you €x, we are now proposing to pay you €y instead"

- Obviously you can refuse this - but I can only imagine that this would lead to redudancies.

ScouseMouse

If you wont accept it - say so.

Just come back here and let us know when they lay you off or put you on short time.

testicle

padser wrote: »

Legally speaking (at least in 99% of cases and almost certainly in the one mentioned) it is not legal for an employer to unilaterally change the rate of pay for an employee.

The Government is in a whole pile of **** so.

Eoin

padser wrote: »

That's complete Bull**** (sorry for being harsh but people writing things like this irritate me though - if you don't know anything about a topid - don't post something that seems authoritative - its really misleading for people looking for advice)

Legally speaking (at least in 99% of cases and almost certainly in the one mentioned) it is not legal for an employer to unilaterally change the rate of pay for an employee..

Actually, I believe that there's a conflict between employment and contract law in this situation.

gerrycollins

padser wrote: »

That's complete Bull**** (sorry for being harsh but people writing things like this irritate me though - if you don't know anything about a topid - don't post something that seems authoritative - its really misleading for people looking for advice)

Legally speaking (at least in 99% of cases and almost certainly in the one mentioned) it is not legal for an employer to unilaterally change the rate of pay for an employee.

You have signed a contract (or there is an implicit one that's not written down) at a certain rate. The employer has no general right to unilaterally amend it.

HOWEVER - in practice of course, especially in the current economic situation, if an employee was to refuse to accept the pay reduction then you run the risk of being made redundant

So - while your employer may not have made this clear to you - effectively what they are saying is

"you have a contract where it says we will pay you €x, we are now proposing to pay you €y instead"

- Obviously you can refuse this - but I can only imagine that this would lead to redudancies.

dont worry about your harsh language its ok however I do have experience here as I employ over 20 people in my company.

you are correct it is totally illegal for an employer to just change any of the working conditions laid out in a contract however many contracts nowadays have such term in them that any changes must be notified in writing 30 days before the change is implemented. I have in mine and my staff know about it and have signed such contracts. It also allows for the staff or union to return with a different approach or to enter discussions.

obviously with pay it cannot go below the minimun wage and shift periods and rest periods etc have to be within the law however it may be a simple a change as a subsided canteen facility been removed or staff discounts removed or ammended but also goes as far a pay rates.

tomcollins97

Be thankful that you still have a job. If not happy with your conditions find another one

Godge

gerrycollins wrote: »

dont worry about your harsh language its ok however I do have experience here as I employ over 20 people in my company.

you are correct it is totally illegal for an employer to just change any of the working conditions laid out in a contract however many contracts nowadays have such term in them that any changes must be notified in writing 30 days before the change is implemented. I have in mine and my staff know about it and have signed such contracts. It also allows for the staff or union to return with a different approach or to enter discussions.

obviously with pay it cannot go below the minimun wage and shift periods and rest periods etc have to be within the law however it may be a simple a change as a subsided canteen facility been removed or staff discounts removed or ammended but also goes as far a pay rates.

Eh, no. Employment law takes precedence over contract law in such circumstances. Employment law has been specifically designed to protect employees because of the power imbalance between employers and employees not being suitable for traditional contract law.

Sure it is fine for staff discounts and other non-monetary benefits but employers cannot unilaterally change monetary benefits.

The reason private sector employers are getting away with pay reductions is the fact that there are no alternative jobs out there. Make a fuss and you will get sacked. However, the day the economy turns, such employers will learn the price of loyalty and that it works both ways.

The reason the government can cut pay is that they can change the law to allow them (but only them) to do that which is what they did just before Christmas.

gerrycollins

Godge wrote: »

Eh, no. Employment law takes precedence over contract law in such circumstances. Employment law has been specifically designed to protect employees because of the power imbalance between employers and employees not being suitable for traditional contract law.

Sure it is fine for staff discounts and other non-monetary benefits but employers cannot unilaterally change monetary benefits.

The reason private sector employers are getting away with pay reductions is the fact that there are no alternative jobs out there. Make a fuss and you will get sacked. However, the day the economy turns, such employers will learn the price of loyalty and that it works both ways.

The reason the government can cut pay is that they can change the law to allow them (but only them) to do that which is what they did just before Christmas.

exactly, you cannot just assume with the strike of a pen that pay rates can be reduced. however you can still reduce them so long as the rules abide by the laws in place.

ie as part of my job we are under the JLC and under such I have to pay certain workers certain rates based on experience and years of employment. I cannot just change that for the fun of it however I can (but wouldnt) enter neogations with the jlc for a reduction.too messy and its already decided a year ahead what the rates are going to be.

Also I can bargain locally with my staff for a pay rates etc however they do not have to accecpt it no matter how bad life was as the JLC takes precedence.

However you still have to have the clause in contract to allow any changes.

user1983

what rights do you have when you dont have a union?

PLIIM

Stand up for yourself.
My employer took my whole dept into a room and informed us that we were having a 10% cut.
10 minutes after that meeting ended, each one of us was called up to HR.
I was third. The first 2 signed the form that was put in front of them saying they would take a pay cut.
I said i wanted to read it and find out my rights. They told me i had to do what they said and that i had to sign it or quit.
So i pulled out my phone and called a solicitor friend and asked him, in front of them and he told me they were strong arming me and they were wrong.
They shut up then.
In the end i refused, but when i came back down i told all the lads what had happened.
Nobody else signed the form.
That was 6 months ago and we are all stil there. The first 2 in are on 10% less because they didnt stand up for themselves.
ALWAYS take a few days and call a solicitor when asked to sign this kind of document.

Noodles5

PLIIM wrote: »

Stand up for yourself.
My employer took my whole dept into a room and informed us that we were having a 10% cut.
10 minutes after that meeting ended, each one of us was called up to HR.
I was third. The first 2 signed the form that was put in front of them saying they would take a pay cut.
I said i wanted to read it and find out my rights. They told me i had to do what they said and that i had to sign it or quit.
So i pulled out my phone and called a solicitor friend and asked him, in front of them and he told me they were strong arming me and they were wrong.
They shut up then.
In the end i refused, but when i came back down i told all the lads what had happened.
Nobody else signed the form.
That was 6 months ago and we are all stil there. The first 2 in are on 10% less because they didnt stand up for themselves.
ALWAYS take a few days and call a solicitor when asked to sign this kind of document.

Good stuff! Fair play to you! Not enough people standing up for themselves against these people!

gerrycollins

user1983 wrote: »

what rights do you have when you dont have a union?

the same rights as everyone else unions have nothing to do with legal rights they may infulence working conditions ie vending machine or coffee machine etc.

however they do know the empolyment laws and are a handy back up with costing an arm and leg for solicitor.