The Bono Tax: Will It Work?

cson

People with a certain level of assets at home and abroad will have to pay €200,000 per year to maintain their Irish passport .

Can you see this working? I'm in two minds, I think that the Irish passport will be worth it to some of these but then on the other hand, 200k a year is a lot to keep it. Overall I can't see this working too great.

the_syco

Aye, U2 came to my mind when that tax came up. I'm thinking it's a clear "up yours" to U2 and anyone else who decided to get taxed elsewhere, but keep up the "Irish face", as it were

seclachi

It probably wont be much of a tax take at all at the end of the day. In my books its just something to try and sway public opinion, tax the rich etc..

Dannyboy83

Bono: "Everytime I clap my hands, Ireland loses another billion"

Lenihan: "Cut his fcuking hands off!!"
============

Domicile levy
Non-resident Irish nationals and domiciled individuals, whose worldwide income exceeds €1,000,000 and whose Irish located capital is greater than €5,000,000 will be required to pay an Irish domicile levy of €200,000 per annum regardless of where they are regarded as resident for tax purposes. The full impact of this levy will be detailed in the forthcoming Finance Bill.


Restriction of tax reliefs for high earners
Further restrictions on the use of tax reliefs and exemptions by high earners will be introduced for the tax year 2010. The restrictions will apply by increasing the effective rate of income tax on income sheltered by such reliefs to 30% (previously 20%). The entry level to which the restriction will apply is being reduced from €250,000 to €125,000. Tapering relief will apply on adjusted income between €125,000 and €400,000 with the full restriction applying thereafter.
It is also proposed that by 2011 “income tax will apply on a progressive basis to those with higher incomes reflecting their capacity to make a greater contribution”.

I guess high profile people might care, won't be too good for U2's image
No idea about low profile people.

It makes me laugh to think David McWilliams was talking about tapping into the Irish Diaspora recently, in a Richard Branson kind of way, and now the government are trying to tap them, in more of a David Begg type of way.

I would guess other people with those kind of earnings are savy enough to find a way around it. Double taxation etc.
Until Brian Lenihan became MoF, it was arguably taxation without representation.
Kudos to Lenihan, we would be sunk without him.

There is an article here about Bono's feelings on the cut off for artists:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0227/breaking1.html
What’s actually hypocritical is the idea that then you couldn’t use a financial services centre in Holland. The real question people need to ask about Ireland’s tax policy is: ‘Was the nation a net gain benefactor?’ And of course it was – hugely so.”The cap of €250,000 on tax-free incomes for artists was introduced in 2006 by then minister for finance Brian Cowen. A tax exemption scheme for artists had originally been introduced in 1969 by the minister for finance at that time, Charles Haughey.
As a very high-grossing act through album sales, tour receipts and publishing/royalties income, the cap imposed in 2006 would have left the band with a multimillion tax bill.

Artist Tax exemption.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/reliefs/artists-exemption.html


How many people actually fit the criteria?

seclachi

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Bono: "Everytime I clap my hands, Ireland loses another billion"

Lenihan: "Cut his fcuking hands off!!"
============



I guess high profile people might care, won't be too good for U2's image
No idea about low profile people.

It makes me laugh to think David McWilliams was talking about tapping into the Irish Diaspora recently, in a Richard Branson kind of way, and now the government are trying to tap them, in more of a David Begg type of way.

I would guess other people with those kind of earnings are savy enough to find a way around it. Double taxation etc.
Until Brian Lenihan became MoF, it was arguably taxation without representation.
Kudos to Lenihan, we would be sunk without him.

There is an article here about Bono's feelings on the cut off for artists:



Artist Tax exemption.
http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/reliefs/artists-exemption.html


How many people actually fit the criteria?

That last quote is pretty funny, just reads to me like "OMG we`d have to pay tax like everybody else"

cson

I'll be very interested to see if this actually works and is not just a bone thrown to placate the Irish public.

cichlid child

I did not read all the tax clause's/exemptions I am a lazy c**t.
But would this do alot of damage to the international football team.
IE:I would say most if not all are living in the uk

starbelgrade

I'm confused - is this thread about tax exemption relief for artists or the Domicile levy? As far as I know, the two are seperate issues.

cson

cichlid child wrote: »

I did not read all the tax clause's/exemptions I am a lazy c**t.
But would this do alot of damage to the international football team.
IE:I would say most if not all are living in the uk

With respect you should have read them; I doubt any of our footballers will ever threaten the thresholds set by the tax.

cson

starbelgrade wrote: »

I'm confused - is this thread about tax exemption relief for artists or the Domicile levy? As far as I know, the two are seperate issues.

The Domicile levy.

I'm interested to see whether people think the likes of Magnier or Desmond for example will pay 200k a year to keep their passports.

starbelgrade

cichlid child wrote: »

I did not read all the tax clause's/exemptions I am a lazy c**t.
But would this do alot of damage to the international football team.
IE:I would say most if not all are living in the uk

True - especially considering the recent tax hike in the UK, which was rumoured to be one of the main reasons the likes of Ronaldo & Alonso left England to play for clubs in Spain, where the tax bands are a lot more favourable to them.

starbelgrade

cson wrote: »

The Domicile levy.

I'm interested to see whether people think the likes of Magnier or Desmond for example will pay 200k a year to keep their passports.

I see.. bit of a misleading title thread though, especially when seclachi threw in quotes from Bono regarding the artists exemption tax.

ei.sdraob

hmm that much money can buy you citizenship on several of the carribean island states, some of the benefits include visa free travel to US, Canada, EU and few others

some interesting reading here

Benefits of Citizenship in Saint Kitts and Nevis
The country has a good international image. Investors and their families receive a full irrevocable citizen’s status for the lifetime. There is no residence requirement to keep citizen’s status. You can travel to 125 countries with no visa (or visa on arrival) requirements including Canada, Schengen States, United Kingdom, Switzerland, Hong Kong and most British Commonwealth member countries (the list does not include the United States). Where visa is required, you can normally obtain it with minimum formalities on a common basis. Being a citizen of St.Kitts & Nevis, you can reside in most of CARICOM states. There are no taxes on income, capital gains, gift, wealth and inheritance. St.Kitts & Nevis recognize dual citizenship – no need to renounce the current citizenship(s). With the St.Kitts & Nevis citizenship-by-investment program, investors get not only citizenship and passport, but also a piece of property worth to invest.

To qualify for citizenship of St. Kitts and Nevis under its Citizenship-by-Investment Program, the Government requires either a contribution to the Sugar Industry Diversification Foundation (a public charity) in the amount of between US$ 200,000 and US$ 400,000 depending on the number of dependents included in the application, or an investment of at least US$ 350,000 in a designated real estate project. The real estate cannot be re-sold during 5 years after the purchase, and it will not qualify the next buyer for citizenship.

http://knol.google.com/k/economic-citizenship-programs


looks like the likes of Bono will just move on

anyways wasnt Bono given citizenship in Bosnia or something

the long lad

I may be wrong, but does domicile not refer to the country you were born in and became a citizen of through birth?
therefore, desmond and magnier couldn't just avoid the 200000 by giving up their passport.

remember, you have to have a net worth of 5M before you need to worry about paying this. thats 4% if you're 'only' worth 5 million, and less if you're worth more.

ei.sdraob

the long lad wrote: »

I may be wrong, but does domicile not refer to the country you were born in and became a citizen of through birth?
therefore, desmond and magnier couldn't just avoid the 200000 by giving up their passport.

remember, you have to have a net worth of 5M before you need to worry about paying this. thats 4% if you're 'only' worth 5 million, and less if you're worth more.

you can give up your citizenship, nothing they can do about it then

also in 90s you could buy Irish citizenship for about 500,000 punts i think, im sure few rich people bought these then since you can have dual US/Irish citizenship

PeakOutput

cson wrote: »

People with a certain level of assets at home and abroad will have to pay €200,000 per year to maintain their Irish passport .

Can you see this working? I'm in two minds, I think that the Irish passport will be worth it to some of these but then on the other hand, 200k a year is a lot to keep it. Overall I can't see this working too great.

well if i remember correctly the people have to have more than 5million assets here and a similiar number abroad so i think they can afford it

its not gonna bring in a lot of money though its just to appease the likes of labour and sinn fein so the goverment can say they have done something about the exiles its pretty much a non issue imo

PeakOutput

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you can give up your citizenship, nothing they can do about it then

also in 90s you could buy Irish citizenship for about 500,000 punts i think, im sure few rich people bought these then since you can have dual US/Irish citizenship

the way it was explained on the radio its not as simple as giving up your passport

domicile laws are apparently very very old and its very very hard to lose your domicile status. according to the guy explaining it they would affectively have to never step foot in the country again

cson

I've been thinking about it and surely this has to be contrary to the EU laws on freedom of movement? If you didn't pay the tax to keep your passport you're effectively stranded in Ireland ergo you don't have freedom of movement. I'm sure that €200,000 would be better spent on lawyers arguing this point in the eyes of some of these people it affects.

ballsymchugh

what if bonio just signed his house over to his wife, (ok, and lets pretend all the rest of his property in ireland comes to about €4m) that means that he won't have to pay the tax, right??
please tell me the loophole isn't that simple??
i doubt any of the footballers have property to that extent, except for steve staunton, who's probably got more houses than robbie fowler...

nesf

cson wrote: »

I've been thinking about it and surely this has to be contrary to the EU laws on freedom of movement? If you didn't pay the tax to keep your passport you're effectively stranded in Ireland ergo you don't have freedom of movement. I'm sure that €200,000 would be better spent on lawyers arguing this point in the eyes of some of these people it affects.

Ok, that make no sense to me at all.

anonymous_joe

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you can give up your citizenship, nothing they can do about it then

also in 90s you could buy Irish citizenship for about 500,000 punts i think, im sure few rich people bought these then since you can have dual US/Irish citizenship

Some very dodgy Saudis have Irish passports.

In all honesty, this strikes me as a publicity stunt, and nothing more.

cson

nesf wrote: »

Ok, that make no sense to me at all.

If they have to pay to retain a passport and choose not to; how can they go anywhere to naturalise or apply for one elsewhere? I'm sure a passport is not something you choose to apply for over the internet. I'm almost certain that particular budget tax conflicts with EU Freedom of Movement laws.

starbelgrade

cson wrote: »

If they have to pay to retain a passport and choose not to; how can they go anywhere to naturalise or apply for one elsewhere? I'm sure a passport is not something you choose to apply for over the internet. I'm almost certain that particular budget tax conflicts with EU Freedom of Movement laws.

EU laws are usually about as enforced as UN treaty agreements. Great in principal, poor in following up.

anonymous_joe

cson wrote: »

If they have to pay to retain a passport and choose not to; how can they go anywhere to naturalise or apply for one elsewhere? I'm sure a passport is not something you choose to apply for over the internet. I'm almost certain that particular budget tax conflicts with EU Freedom of Movement laws.

Shít countries sell them for money.

Ireland used to for example.

Raphael

cson wrote: »

If they have to pay to retain a passport and choose not to; how can they go anywhere to naturalise or apply for one elsewhere? I'm sure a passport is not something you choose to apply for over the internet. I'm almost certain that particular budget tax conflicts with EU Freedom of Movement laws.

Well, if they're an extremely rich person living in another country, I doubt they'll have a hard time getting naturalised where they're living.

ceret

Surely it'd be very simple to just move all your money to a swiss bank account and all your assets to a holding company?

Diarmuid

It seems very much a half baked idea. I'm a successful Irish person, the CxO of some French company in Paris. I earn €1.5m in France and pay €582k in taxes there. Now I'm supposed to cough up €200k to the Irish government? Bollox to that.

EDIT: To clarify. I am not a CEO and don't earn €1.5m,

Barracudaincork

Time and time again i hear this Bono doesnt pay tax crap! Where does this come from? Ok i am aware the corporate company U2 pay tax in holland, but as a domiciled, resident and ordinarily resident Bono would pay tax in Ireland, he isnt U2, U2 is a company not 5 guys collecting money after a gig and divving it up.

Tall poppy syndrome in this country is rife!

Sleepy

ballsymchugh wrote: »

what if bonio just signed his house over to his wife, (ok, and lets pretend all the rest of his property in ireland comes to about €4m) that means that he won't have to pay the tax, right??
please tell me the loophole isn't that simple??
i doubt any of the footballers have property to that extent, except for steve staunton, who's probably got more houses than robbie fowler...

I pretty much guarantee it'll be that easy to circumvent.

The likes of Desmond et all will just transfer their remaing Irish assets out amongst the family and move whatever else is necessary to reduce their net 'resident assets' below the 5m mark out of the country.

This could actually have a negative impact on the country assuming that some of the assets are value creating companies.

podsieboy

i suppose now that some familys are on the dole and not even able to scrape by i suppose bono and sir bob will start doing a band aid to help the familys of ireland and britain
i doubt it........................................then again he could at least help the country and get all irish celebs to move back to pay there taxes that would help as a start

Diarmuid

podsieboy wrote: »

i suppose now that some familys are on the dole and not even able to scrape by i suppose bono and sir bob will start doing a band aid to help the familys of ireland and britain
i doubt it........................................then again he could at least help the country and get all irish celebs to move back to pay there taxes that would help as a start

Wouldn't even know where to start with that.

BlaasForRafa

Barracudaincork wrote: »

Time and time again i hear this Bono doesnt pay tax crap! Where does this come from? Ok i am aware the corporate company U2 pay tax in holland, but as a domiciled, resident and ordinarily resident Bono would pay tax in Ireland, he isnt U2, U2 is a company not 5 guys collecting money after a gig and divving it up.

Tall poppy syndrome in this country is rife!

boo-bloody-hoo, do you want us all to shed a tear for the poor persecuted multi-millionaire?

setting up a company in holland is just another way U2 used as a tax dodge, they should be paying their fair share just as the paye workers are expected to do.

Barracudaincork

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

boo-bloody-hoo, do you want us all to shed a tear for the poor persecuted multi-millionaire?

setting up a company in holland is just another way U2 used as a tax dodge, they should be paying their fair share just as the paye workers are expected to do.

No not shed a tear, growing up would be a good place for you to start though!

What U2 have done is what the Irish government are encourging other companies to do here, by keeping the corporation tax rate at 12.5%, i suppose you think all those foreign corporate employing people here in Ireland are out of order for doing so, or are you just close minded and can only relate to when money leaves the country and not comes in?

Diarmuid

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

setting up a company in holland is just another way U2 used as a tax dodge, they should be paying their fair share just as the paye workers are expected to do.

yea, like those bastards in Intel, Google, pfizer, Microsoft, and hundreds others, who set up in Ireland just as a tax dodge.

BlaasForRafa

Diarmuid wrote: »

yea, like those bastards in Intel, Google, pfizer, Microsoft, and hundreds others, who set up in Ireland just as a tax dodge.

Those companies employ many thousands of people who contribute taxes to the Irish economy.

Barracudaincork

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Those companies employ many thousands of people who contribute taxes to the Irish economy.

and? Go on, make a valid point now please.

old boy

200 grand is only chicken feed to them guys,

starbelgrade

podsieboy wrote: »

i suppose now that some familys are on the dole and not even able to scrape by i suppose bono and sir bob will start doing a band aid to help the familys of ireland and britain
i doubt it.....

In 1986, they did the Self Aid concert in Dublin to highlight the 1/4 of a million unemployed in Ireland at the time & raised a few million for the Self Aid Trust.

za

Thats not right, 200000 tax if your income is over 1 million.
so what if there high earners that dosent mean they should pay an extra 200k. They would already be on the higher band of tax rate, so this new tax is unfair.:mad:

PeakOutput

za wrote: »

Thats not right, 200000 tax if your income is over 1 million.
so what if there high earners that dosent mean they should pay an extra 200k. They would already be on the higher band of tax rate, so this new tax is unfair.:mad:

you dont understand this tax at all clearly

nesf

za wrote: »

Thats not right, 200000 tax if your income is over 1 million.
so what if there high earners that dosent mean they should pay an extra 200k. They would already be on the higher band of tax rate, so this new tax is unfair.:mad:

It applies to non-residents, i.e. people who aren't "resident" in Ireland (in legal terms) i.e. people who don't pay any tax here. It really is a publicity stunt by the Government, it'll be tough and expensive to enforce but it gives people a choice, pay a flat 200K or join our tax system and pay tax like a regular worker. It most certainly doesn't levy both on anyone.

starbelgrade

nesf wrote: »

It applies to non-residents, i.e. people who aren't "resident" in Ireland (in legal terms) i.e. people who don't pay any tax here. It really is a publicity stunt by the Government, it'll be tough and expensive to enforce but it gives people a choice, pay a flat 200K or join our tax system and pay tax like a regular worker. It most certainly doesn't levy both on anyone.

Pure tokenism.. much the same as when BER Certs were made a "legal requirement" for the housing sector. Unenforced tokenism.

nesf

starbelgrade wrote: »

Pure tokenism.. much the same as when BER Certs were made a "legal requirement" for the housing sector. Unenforced tokenism.

BER certs aren't that bad. Making them mandatory was a pain but it's one way of enforcing a standard and encouraging better development standards I suppose.

starbelgrade

nesf wrote: »

BER certs aren't that bad. Making them mandatory was a pain but it's one way of enforcing a standard and encouraging better development standards I suppose.

The development standards were, and, are already there in the form of the Builiding Regulations. The problem is that nobody enforced/ enforces them. So adding BER regulations on top of that, with little or no enforcement makes fe*c all difference. All it achieved was to create a lot of income for a few training compamies & a lot of income for a few selected tenders from the "jobs for the boys" crowd.

nesf

starbelgrade wrote: »

The development standards were, and, are already there in the form of the Builiding Regulations. The problem is that nobody enforced/ enforces them. So adding BER regulations on top of that, with little or no enforcement makes fe*c all difference. All it achieved was to create a lot of income for a few training compamies & a lot of income for a few selected tenders from the "jobs for the boys" crowd.

If they enforced top level environmental standards in the Building Regulations people would go pretty crazy though. I agree about the jobs for the boys aspect though, it's a handy money spinner for a few people.

starbelgrade

nesf wrote: »

If they enforced top level environmental standards in the Building Regulations people would go pretty crazy though. I agree about the jobs for the boys aspect though, it's a handy money spinner for a few people.

Part of the problem is that the minimum standards - which is what the Building Regulations set out to be - were very rarely enforced. The big problem is that the minimum standards - as set out in the Building Regulations - were far too low. Add to that, almost zero enforcement, greedy "developers", greedy councillors & politicians & easy credit from the banks to build...

And people wonder how the bubble has burst?!!

Let's tax Bono. That'll sort the problem.