How 'Green' is This?

Judgement Day

Recently I picked up several of the new (?) Knorr organic soups see pic:KNORR 001.JPG and while they are superb, if a little expensive, it is the packet that I have problems with. Given that eating organic is part of a lifestyle choice rather than purely about food, it goes against the grain with me to buy organic food which is in what is clearly the worst form of non-biodegradeable packaging. I will be writing to Knorr HQ in Switzerland to raise the issue but I would be interested in what others think. It may seem fussy but similar soups are sold in plastic containers that are recyclable so why not Knorr products.

auerillo

This reminds me of a knoor soup I got a few years ago with teh slogan "just like your mother used to make" on the front.

The ingredients included the most extensive list of names that looked like they came from a chemistry exam for the advance chemistry class!

Macha

Judgement Day, there are other ready-made soups available that:
a) come in recycled packaging an
b) are made in Ireland, thus reducing transport emissions.

Cully and Sully and the Avonmore range are two that spring to mind. But it's a good idea to contact Knorr with your opinion.

Judgement Day

Still haven't got round to writing to Knorr about their soup packaging, and I have to admit to purchasing a few more packets in a recent 50% off special offer in a local supermarket.
Another organic product that is an annoyance to me is the milk from Strathroy Dairies - a NI based organisation. The milk itself is excellent and miles cheaper per litre than any competitor but again the packaging is a let-down on several fronts:
1) Despite being a conventional tetra pack it come with a plastic top/spout which weighs 2gms.
2) The spout always drips when re-opened - although that is kind of irrelevant to the topic.

Question one - why is it necessary to have a plastic top on a tetra pack in the first place? I know that Strathroy are not unique in having plastic tops on tetra packs but given that the product is an organic one.....
Question two - does the presence of the plastic top invalidate efforts to recycle the tetra pack and does it ultimately go to landfill?

I contacted Strathroy last year and again today - unbelievable they have no customer services staff and I have to chase up again later. Given that, for most people, organic is a lifestyle choice rather than an eating fad I feel Strathroy are yet another company that are failing to understand their market.

robtri

i dont get the connection between organic and recyling... two seperate issues...

surely this sort of thinking should be accross the board on all food stuff...

Judgement Day

robtri wrote: »

i dont get the connection between organic and recyling... two seperate issues...

surely this sort of thinking should be accross the board on all food stuff...

Of course it should but if you read my last paragraph again you will see where I'm coming from.

gav86

taconnol wrote: »

Judgement Day, there are other ready-made soups available that:
a) come in recycled packaging an
b) are made in Ireland, thus reducing transport emissions.

Cully and Sully and the Avonmore range are two that spring to mind. But it's a good idea to contact Knorr with your opinion.

AFAIK Cully and Sully Soup is manufactured in France and HQ is in Ireland!!

Del2005

Judgement Day wrote: »

Still haven't got round to writing to Knorr about their soup packaging, and I have to admit to purchasing a few more packets in a recent 50% off special offer in a local supermarket.
Another organic product that is an annoyance to me is the milk from Strathroy Dairies - a NI based organisation. The milk itself is excellent and miles cheaper per litre than any competitor but again the packaging is a let-down on several fronts:
1) Despite being a conventional tetra pack it come with a plastic top/spout which weighs 2gms.

2) The spout always drips when re-opened - although that is kind of irrelevant to the topic.

Question one - why is it necessary to have a plastic top on a tetra pack in the first place? I know that Strathroy are not unique in having plastic tops on tetra packs but given that the product is an organic one.....

So less product is wasted by people actually being able to open the pack and not end up spilling half of it if you don't get it right 1st time, like when the package gets slightly damp. It also helps to re-seal your produce so that no contamination gets into it.

Judgement Day wrote: »

Question two - does the presence of the plastic top invalidate efforts to recycle the tetra pack and does it ultimately go to landfill?

You know that Tetra packs have a plastic inner layer to stop the product seeping out, cardboard isn't waterproof! Tetra pack have their own recycling program for their packs.

Judgement Day

Del2005 wrote: »

So less product is wasted by people actually being able to open the pack and not end up spilling half of it if you don't get it right 1st time, like when the package gets slightly damp. It also helps to re-seal your produce so that no contamination gets into it.




You know that Tetra packs have a plastic inner layer to stop the product seeping out, cardboard isn't waterproof! Tetra pack have their own recycling program for their packs.

So how is it that people who buy Glenisk Organic milk can manage to open their cartons without spilling the product? Contamination? I have been using Tetra pack cartons for years with no ill effects due to contamination - as far as I know.

Can you expand on this point? I am well aware that ordinary cardboard is not waterproof but I have serious doubts that Tetra pack have any special programme that allows for the recycling of solid plastic spouts and caps.

Del2005

Judgement Day wrote: »

So how is it that people who buy Glenisk Organic milk can manage to open their cartons without spilling the product? Contamination? I have been using Tetra pack cartons for years with no ill effects due to contamination - as far as I know.

How do you know that they don't spill the contents? I've used the old packs that Glenisk use and sometimes they are a pain in the b****cks to open if you don't get then right the 1st time.

How are the elderly/disabled supposed to open them?

You'd be surprised how some people react to having non resealable containers. If they are selling to the trade then they have to be resealable from a Health and safety stand point, can't be having cross contamination of food stuffs.

Can you expand on this point? I am well aware that ordinary cardboard is not waterproof but I have serious doubts that Tetra pack have any special programme that allows for the recycling of solid plastic spouts and caps.

So you're worried about the lid, but not what type of plastic is used to line the box. How do you know that the liner is recyclable?

I'd assume that the lid of the carton is the same material as bottle lids, which can be recycled, as I don't see Tetra Pak spending money to reinvent the wheel.

Judgement Day

Del2005 wrote: »

How do you know that they don't spill the contents? I've used the old packs that Glenisk use and sometimes they are a pain in the b****cks to open if you don't get then right the 1st time.

How are the elderly/disabled supposed to open them?

You'd be surprised how some people react to having non resealable containers. If they are selling to the trade then they have to be resealable from a Health and safety stand point, can't be having cross contamination of food stuffs.



So you're worried about the lid, but not what type of plastic is used to line the box. How do you know that the liner is recyclable?


I'd assume that the lid of the carton is the same material as bottle lids, which can be recycled, as I don't see Tetra Pak spending money to reinvent the wheel.

I'm afraid that it's not worth arguing over. I don't approve of Tetra packs anyway and would prefer milk from returnable glass bottles but that is another argument. I am absolutely positive that a Tetra pack carton with a plastic spout and top is not a realistic proposition to recycle and I would like to hear from some who knows rather than assumes. Of course Tetra packs can be a pain to open but again that is another argument. Glenisk milk is sold to many of the big supermarkets so clearly your point about them having to be resealable is incorrect.

robtri

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'm afraid that it's not worth arguing over. I don't approve of Tetra packs anyway and would prefer milk from returnable glass bottles but that is another argument. I am absolutely positive that a Tetra pack carton with a plastic spout and top is not a realistic proposition to recycle and I would like to hear from some who knows rather than assumes. Of course Tetra packs can be a pain to open but again that is another argument. Glenisk milk is sold to many of the big supermarkets so clearly your point about them having to be resealable is incorrect.

well tetra paks with plastic holders are shown on the tetra pak website as been recyclable...

so the answer is YES they are recyclable...

still confused how tetra paks and organic are related as a topic..

Judgement Day

robtri wrote: »

well tetra paks with plastic holders are shown on the tetra pak website as been recyclable...

so the answer is YES they are recyclable...

still confused how tetra paks and organic are related as a topic..

Thanks for that and I have now visited an official Tetra Pak site and found this video which shows the recycling process: http://www.tetrapakrecycling.co.uk/recyclable_how.asp

I see elsewhere that the bulk of the UK's tetra paks are shipped out to Scandinavia for recycling.........mmmm. Anyway, I still am not a fan of the product and would prefer to see the return of sterile glass containers as opposed to the highly chemical tetra pak.

The only link/connection that I'm making between organic and recycling is that I suspect that most people who choose organic do so as part of their trying to embrace a greener lifestyle.

Del2005

Are you sure glass bottles are better then light weight containers. With the transportation back and forward, then the sterilisation taken into account. Maybe a single use paper and small bit of plastic container is better.

Pete M.

Well as far as I see it, choosing organic is a lifestyle choice either because:

A. It relates to your concern about how food is produced with regard to the environment

or

B. It relates to how 'healthy' the food is for you.

Of course, holistically speaking, one should consider both aspects, but for many people, they don't think beyond one or the other.
If you wished to be truely organic, in both respects, you would only consume organic soup freshly made from locally produced vegetables (or animals).
The whole Organic label has been very cynically used by many multinational food companies, much like the fair trade one, and is about organic as a rubber bullet.
Packaging of consumer goods is one of the major problems with regard to waste management in the developed world.
The whole shooting match is non-organic, whether it's the difficult to treat packaging or the cynical use of the organic label.


IMHO

robtri

Judgement Day wrote: »

Thanks for that and I have now visited an official Tetra Pak site and found this video which shows the recycling process: http://www.tetrapakrecycling.co.uk/recyclable_how.asp

I see elsewhere that the bulk of the UK's tetra paks are shipped out to Scandinavia for recycling.........mmmm. Anyway, I still am not a fan of the product and would prefer to see the return of sterile glass containers as opposed to the highly chemical tetra pak.

The only link/connection that I'm making between organic and recycling is that I suspect that most people who choose organic do so as part of their trying to embrace a greener lifestyle.

Does the re-use of a glass bottle, use less energy and production of glass bottles

than

Single use and re-cyclable tetra pak????

Judgement Day

I have the feeling that I should have titled this thread 'How Green is this?' rather than organic - sorry. Anyway another issue to throw at you all - for some years now I have been using Ecover washing-up liquid on the basis of it being less damaging to the environment. Not being a scientist I have accepted their claims for the product but like so many other green/organic products the more you read the more confused you become. Today I checked out Ecover washing-up liquid on Treehugger.com here: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/04/dioxane_blows_t.php

Anyway having read the info there I will stick with Ecover for now but what does anybody else think? Incidentally, one major advantage for me of using Ecover is the ability to reuse the bottle over and over again by having it refilled at a local health shop. My current bottle is well over three years old, so that is a lot of recycling and manufacturing eliminated. To me this sort of refilling of bottles is the way to go but it would also be nice to have 'total' confidence in the product.

djpbarry

Judgement Day wrote: »

I have the feeling that I should have titled this thread 'How Green is this?' rather than organic...

Done.

djpbarry

Judgement Day wrote: »

Today I checked out Ecover washing-up liquid on Treehugger.com here: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/04/dioxane_blows_t.php

I don't think there's any cause for concern - 2.4 ppm is an extremely low concentration. The USEPA has assigned it a 'no-observed-adverse-effects level' of 400 mg per cubic metre. Dioxane is a very common substance in commercial products.

There is some evidence that this substance is carcinogenic in animals, but there is, as yet, no conclusive evidence of carcinogenesis in humans (it is generally recognised as a possible carcinogen). Furthermore, it does not accumulate in the body.