Egyptian/US Barrier

Nodin

Egypt has begun constructing a huge metal wall along its border with the Gaza Strip as it attempts to cut smuggling tunnels, the BBC has learned.[/B] When it is finished the wall will be 10-11km (6-7 miles) long and will extend 18 metres below the surface.
The Egyptians are being helped by American army engineers, who the BBC understands have designed the wall.
The plan has been shrouded in secrecy, with no comment or confirmation from the Egyptian government

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8405020.stm

And despite the change of administration, the siege goes on.....It's depressing, in that its entirely expected.

RedPlanet

But couldn't they just dig under it?

Nodin

...yes, but with far greater problems re collapse and air circulation.

prinz

Here's a hint, stop smuggling in weaponry.

RedPlanet

prinz wrote: »

Here's a hint, stop smuggling in weaponry.

Hint: The tunnels are far more lucrative than for simple weapons. Have a look at the picture. There's an entire economy built around them.

prinz

RedPlanet wrote: »

Hint: The tunnels are far more lucrative than for simple weapons. Have a look at the picture. There's an entire economy built around them.

Yes, because of the blockade...and the blockade is there because..?

RedPlanet

prinz wrote: »

Yes, because of the blockade...and the blockade is there because..?

Because they are the indigenous people, pushed off their land by a load of religious nutjobs with help from USA and HMG?

PirateShampoo

RedPlanet wrote: »

Because they are the indigenous people, pushed off their land by a load of religious nutjobs with help from USA and HMG?

Is that a question or a statment?, because neither makes any sense.

aurelius79

It's really quite simple. The wall is to prevent Palestinians from fleeing to Egypt when Israel carpet-bombs Gaza. It's not that hard to figure out.

prinz

RedPlanet wrote: »

Because they are the indigenous people, pushed off their land by a load of religious nutjobs with help from USA and HMG?

Conveniently whitewashing the responsibility of their neighbours of course, like Egypt..Jordan...

aurelius79

What responsibility do they have? Because they are Muslim countries they have a responsibility to care for all other Muslim countries? If Libya invaded Great Britain tomorrow, would we have the responsibility to take in the millions of displaced refugees? No, I don't think we would.

prinz

aurelius79 wrote: »

What responsibility do they have? Because they are Muslim countries they have a responsibility to care for all other Muslim countries? If Libya invaded Great Britain tomorrow, would we have the responsibility to take in the millions of displaced refugees? No, I don't think we would.

Do you know when the West Bank became known as the "West Bank"? It was in 1949 when Jordan annexed the West Bank, a move recognised only by the UK and Pakistan. They didn't care to much for the rights of the indigenous peoples then did they?

Do you know for instance that Transjordan was renamed the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan to legitimise the king's claims on lands they confiscated in Palestine?

Did you know in 1951 the Jordanian King was assassinated by a Palestinian because Jordan, Lebanon and Israel were conducting talks about how to carve up Palestine between them?

Did you know that fighting broke out in the 70's in Jordan between the Jordanians and Palestinians?

In 2009 Jordan revoked citizenship to thousands of Palestinians.. leaving them stateless, thus without access to Jordanian healthcare, education, jobs, travel etc etc.

Not to mention it is actually Egypt building the wall...

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

Here's a hint, stop smuggling in weaponry.

Theres never been proof of weapon smuggling to the extent that would justify such actions.

aurelius79

No, Palestine and Jordan have been allies for hundreds of years. Jordan's claim on the West Bank was a succesful attempt at stopping Israel's land grab. None of what you say detracts from the fact that the British government handed over lands that they had no right to whatsoever. They handed over lands to a small group of religious zealots who had no justification for demanding their own state. As a result, millions of people were displaced and thousands lost their lives. Nothing you say can justify that.

wes

Well, hardly surprising as Mubarak is a US puppet, and the American's once again show there true colors.

wes

From Al Jazeera.com
Egypt denies building 'Gaza wall'

Egypt has denied it is constructing an underground steel barrier along its strip with the Gaza border in an attempt to seal off smuggling tunnels built by Palestinians.

Haaretz, an Israeli newspaper, reported that Egypt was installing a metal wall up to 30 metres deep along the strip used by Palestinians to break the Israeli blockade of the territory.

The paper reported that the wall would be nearly 10km long as "impossible to cut or melt".

But Egyptian sources told Al Jazeera that bulldozers and construction workers in the area are carrying out routine maintenance work, dismissing the Israeli report as "baseless."

A reporter for the AFP news agency said workers were placing 20 metre long pipes along the border, while witnesses in the town of Rafah said they could see Egyptian vehicles working across the fenced frontier.

Click here for full article

Wonder what the truth is here, perhaps Mubarak is trying to save face amongst his people, by telling a lie.

Overheal

wes wrote: »

Wonder what the truth is here, perhaps Mubarak is trying to save face amongst his people, by telling a lie.

Or Israeli press is trying to demoralize the Palestinians.

aurelius79

Overheal wrote: »

Or Israeli press is trying to demoralize the Palestinians.

You can't demoralize a person whose only possession is their own life. Anything that the Zionists do now will only strengthen the resolve of the Palestinians.

prinz

aurelius79 wrote: »

No, Palestine and Jordan have been allies for hundreds of years..

Good one, thanks for that. Such good allies that Jordan didn't even recognise 'Palestine' and were more than happy to make a grab for land themselves.

Manach

In the appropriateness of this barrier, I'd say it would be up to the legitimate de jure governing body, the Palestine Authority to comment/protest at an international level. Given my sparse knowledge of the situation, my guess that if this barrier adversely impacts the de facto rulers of Gaza, Hamas, the Palestine Authority would not raise to much of a fuss over this.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8405020.stm
.

About bloody time, well done Egypt.

wes

Overheal wrote: »

Or Israeli press is trying to demoralize the Palestinians.

I doubt they would do that. I am sure they just had a bad source or something.

Overheal

wes wrote: »

I doubt they would do that. I am sure they just had a bad source or something.

Well we dont know that its wrong yet. Just unverified.

The Saint

prinz wrote: »

Yes, because of the blockade...and the blockade is there because..?

The blockade is criticised by most countries in the world, including the EU. There's also a good legal arguement for its illegality.

Overheal

And yet the EU hasnt imposed any sanctions on Israel. It doesnt need the UN to do that.

The Saint

Not all EU countries would support sanctions on Israel. I don't think the EU has ever unilaterally imposed sanctions on any country so such a move would be unprecidented.

I believe the EU should send ships of aid directly to Gaza and tell the Israelis that if they are interferred with there wil be serious repercussions. I can't imagine the Israelis wanting to piss off their largest trading partner.

Overheal

The Saint wrote: »

Not all EU countries would support sanctions on Israel. I don't think the EU has ever unilaterally imposed sanctions on any country so such a move would be unprecidented.

I believe the EU should send ships of aid directly to Gaza and tell the Israelis that if they are interferred with there wil be serious repercussions. I can't imagine the Israelis wanting to piss off their largest trading partner.

Israel's largest trading partner by a long shot is the United States. But I like this idea of gatecrashing the Gaza shoreline.

The Saint

Overheal wrote: »

Israel's largest trading partner by a long shot is the United States. But I like this idea of gatecrashing the Gaza shoreline.

My bad. Second largest trading partner.

EU good exports to Israel 2007: €14 billion
EU goods imports from Israel 2007: €11.3 billion

US Exports to Israel $14,486.9 (€9,915.55)
US Imports from Israel $22,335.8 (€15,295.80)

Not that much in it in fairness though.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5081.html
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/creating-opportunities/bilateral-relations/countries/israel/

wes

Overheal wrote: »

Well we dont know that its wrong yet. Just unverified.

Well, if it turns out to be untrue, then I doubt it was something done with the intent to demoralize the Palestinians. I don't think the Israeli media is that far gone.

FlutterinBantam

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-117028542.html

What's this about then?

dvpower

Wasn't the existing natural Egyptian/US Barrier good enough?:D

Nodin

dvpower wrote: »

Wasn't the existing natural Egyptian/US Barrier good enough?:D

I see what you mean....

callig

Abu Zeid Confirms Egypt Installing Wall Along Gaza Border

http://www.imemc.org/index.php?obj_id=53&story_id=57397

wes

I reckon this will make Mubarak even more unpopular than he already is in Egypt, but then again I take it the man could care less about the will of the people, and the US will continue to fund the the brutal Egyptian regime, showing that there support for democracy, isn't worth a whole lot.

FlutterinBantam

What evidence do you have to call it a "brutal regime"?

Overheal

Ive heard of my Husseins and my Mugabes but Mubarak doesnt ring a bell.

hmm fair enough: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosni_Mubarak#Twenty-eight_years_of_Emergency_Law_rule
Legitimacy in question. But Brutal?

yet also,

Mubarak and the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Mubarak has very strong views on the issue of Israel and the Palestinians. He is generally supportive of Palestinian groups such as Fatah. As he has been involved intensely in the Arab League, he has supported Arab efforts to achieve a lasting peace in the region. The current position of the league is that which was endorsed at the Beirut Summit, on 28 March 2002. At the summit the league adopted the Arab Peace Initiative,[9] a Saudi-inspired peace plan for the Arab–Israeli conflict. The initiative offered full normalization of the relations with Israel. In exchange, Israel was demanded to withdraw from all occupied territories, including the Golan Heights, to recognize an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip with East Jerusalem as its capital, as well as a "just solution" for the Palestinian refugees. The Peace Initiative was again endorsed at 2007 in the Riyadh Summit. In July 2007, the Arab League sent a mission, consisting of the Jordanian and Egyptian foreign ministers, to Israel to promote the initiative. The mission was welcomed with reservations by Israel.[citation needed]

On 19 June 2008, Egypt brokered “lull” or pause in hostilities between Israel and Hamas went into effect.[10] The term “lull” is a translation of the Arabic term Tahdia.[11] According to The New York Times, neither side fully respected the terms of the cease-fire.[12]

The agreement required Hamas to end rocket attacks on Israel and to enforce the lull throughout Gaza. In exchange, Hamas expected the blockade to end, commerce in Gaza to resume, and truck shipments to be restored to 2005 levels, which was between 500 and 600 trucks per day.[12][13] Israel tied easing of the blockade to a reduction in rocket fire and gradually re-opened supply lines and permitted around 90 daily truck shipments to enter Gaza, up from around 70 per day.[14] Hamas criticized Israel for its continued blockade[15] while Israel accused Hamas of continued weapons smuggling via tunnels to Egypt and pointed to continued rocket attacks.[12]

When conflict again ensued however Egypt's foreign minister, while condemning the Israeli offensive, stated that Hamas had brought it upon itself.

In 2009, Mubarak's government banned the Cairo Anti-war Conference, which has criticised his lack of action against Israel.[16]

In fact he sounds from this to be quite supportive of lifting the Blockade, but he cant do that while Israel is accusing Egypt of supplying Hamas through smuggling tunnels.

Nodin

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

What evidence do you have to call it a "brutal regime"?

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/egypt
Treatment of citizens, minoritys etc.....

wes

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

What evidence do you have to call it a "brutal regime"?

Your joking right?!?

Here are some examples:
Egypt: Mass Arrests and Torture in Sinai
Woman dies in Egypt police raid

Just a couple of examples, but I think it fair to say that Mubarak is a odious dictator.

Overheal

wes wrote: »

Your joking right?!?

Here are some examples:
Egypt: Mass Arrests and Torture in Sinai
Woman dies in Egypt police raid

Just a couple of examples, but I think it fair to say that Mubarak is a odious dictator.

The Pregnant Woman example is Hyperbole. ****, worse happens in the US frankly. Such things are accidents, not evidence of brutal dictatorship.

Dont get me wrong, the Mass Arrests etc. are not above the table. But lets leave the pregger tragedies out of it.

wes

Overheal wrote: »

The Pregnant Woman example is Hyperbole. ****, worse happens in the US frankly. Such things are accidents, not evidence of brutal dictatorship.

Dont get me wrong, the Mass Arrests etc. are not above the table. But lets leave the pregger tragedies out of it.

If what happened to the pregnant Woman was a isolated incident you would have a point, but here is another example:

YouTube exposes torture in Egypt

The story about the pregnant Woman was just an example of the casual brutality of the Mubarak regime, which doesn't value the lives of the people it rules.

Overheal

Fair enough. But more on the topic of Gaza, it seems to be aimed at resolving the conlict [erecting the tunnel border]

wes

Overheal wrote: »

Fair enough. But more on the topic of Gaza, it seems to be aimed at resolving the conlict [erecting the tunnel border]

I don't really see how it will help. The siege is causing a lot of suffering for the Palestinians, and you can be sure that if Israeli's were put under a similar siege, it would be considered completely unacceptable. Bringing people to the brink of stravation will only increase resentment and hatred. NowThe tunnels, which to be fair are used to smuggle weapons, are also used to bring essential goods into Gaza, and it is pretty hypocritical for the US to be involved in this barrier, considering they arm both the odious Egyptian and Israeli regimes, who are guilty of all kind of Human Rights abuses and murder of innocent civilians. So as long as the siege exists, I don't see there being any kind of chance of peace.

Overheal

NowThe tunnels, which to be fair are used to smuggle weapons,

It doesnt matter what else they smuggle through those tunnels, whether it be food, medical supplies or gumdrops. The fact that there are Weapons being smuggled through is enough cause to erect this shield-wall. Its also Egypts Perogative how they wish to control their own border.

Food and Medical Supplies are for the UN to suss out. And Israel will not let them through [If at all/In sufficient numbers] while Hamas continues to gather weapons for further "Retaliation". I don't like that. Im just saying, that appears to be the way it is.

Dont forget the US also assists the Palestinian Authority. So its not as though the US is punishing Palestine. The uncomfortable truth is none of us are entirely sure what the hell is going on in Gaza, despite feeling like we have pretty good ideas.

wes

Overheal wrote: »

It doesnt matter what else they smuggle through those tunnels, whether it be food, medical supplies or gumdrops. The fact that there are Weapons being smuggled through is enough cause to erect this shield-wall. Its also Egypts Perogative how they wish to control their own border.

If, ample food and supplies were being let through, I would agree with you, but there is a siege going on, and the half starving of 1.5 million people are being affected by it.

Overheal wrote: »

Food and Medical Supplies are for the UN to suss out. And Israel will not let them through [If at all/In sufficient numbers] while Hamas continues to gather weapons for further "Retaliation". I don't like that. Im just saying, that appears to be the way it is.

Yes, and no action is being taken against there collective punishment of all of Gaza, so I can't blame the Palestinians for smuggling stuff through. Let not pretend that the US or the EU for that matter do not have options or anything, they could easily put pressure on Israel to end the siege, but choose not to. I am all for stopping Hamas getting weapons, but why not steps to make Israel end the siege? Seems to me the same old Western double standard. The lives of Palestinians are considered worthless by Western governments and Israeli's are the only ones with a right to have weapons, despite the fact they are happily stealing Palestinian land even during there so called "freeze" (which exempts occupied East Jerusalem completely).

The simple fact of the matter, is that Egyptian regime are just as responsible as Israel for the situation in Gaza, and without the tunnels things will get worse, unless the siege is lifted. Now Egypt could open there borders to let in Humanitarian aid and they could also get US assitance (i am sure they would help as they seem to have no issue helping to build the new barrier) to search all cargo going into Gaza, and end the Humanitarian crisis, and then give them the moral capital to clamp down on the tunnels and also prevent weapons going in via the normal crossing.

Now weapons will always get in, but I am sure they could stop the majority, and not you know half starve 1.5 million people, half of whom are children, which is a obscence act of state terrorism imho,

Overheal wrote: »

Dont forget the US also assists the Palestinian Authority. So its not as though the US is punishing Palestine. The uncomfortable truth is none of us are entirely sure what the hell is going on in Gaza, despite feeling like we have pretty good ideas.

Actually, the UN and Human Rights groups actually do know what going on, and the US is punished the people of Palestine with its one sided support of Israel and its complicity in the siege of Gaza, the US is not a neutral party in this, they are very much on Israel side, and could care less about the suffering of the people of Gaza, as evidenced by the complicity in the seige of Gaza.