death for prsi treatment benefits in budget 2010

musec5

As the co-owner of a dental practice in rural Ireland, i wish to bring your readers attention to the following text from the budget measures.

Treatment Benefits
In 2010, the entitlements under the Treatment Benefit Scheme will be limited to the Medical and Surgical appliances scheme and the free examination elements of the Dental and Optical Benefit schemes.


This scheme has delivered free or subsidised dental, optical and aural treatment to prsi insured workers and their dependant spouses for over 55 years. Last year over 400,000 individuals accessed dental treatment through this scheme and almost 2 million people were entitled to avail of it. It is now proposed to take a machete to this scheme and leave only a small element of it standing. This will come into effect in Jan 2010. This was one of the only tangible benefits to the PRSI insured person and will now be decimated. We are told that this abomination of a decision may deliver €52M in savings. Contrast this saving with the €90M being returned to the alcohol industry, which can hardly be accused of improving anyone's health, or to €60M being granted to horse and greyhound racing, which is enjoyed by a relative minority. I would deplore the present Government's commitment to dental and oral health (a fact in evidence for several years and portrayed by the failure to secure a dental advisor or Chief Dental Officer) and question its commitment to delivering that which was intended when PRSI was first designed. Would the Minister for Finance now please admit that this has been a grave error in judgement and apologise to the PRSI payers of the State, or failing that, admit that PRSI is now, ipso facto, a tax which delivers no actual benefits to the insured worker.

cson

Basically; you're out of pocket after it? Am I right?

musec5

not only me, but all the PRSI patients in the country, thought you might be interested........but maybe not

cson

Are you more concerned for the PRSI worker or for your own pay packet? That is; would you have posted this thread if you were not in the dental industry? Because in my opinion I don't think you would. I don't blame you, it's natural to want to defend one's income and employment from cuts.

musec5

i posted this to point out to readers some of the hidden items in the budget. i have a concern for both insured workers who have had entitlements removed from them and will now have to pay privately for their treatment, dental, optical and aural, and for my staff whose job security has been placed in grave risk by this measure.

msg11

So I can't get my teeth cleaned anymore or my fillings at a fraction of the cost

EG.. Under the PRSI

A filling would be say €50

Without PRSI cover it would be €150..

So even though I have cover, I don't get cover and pay €150?

musec5

not sure about your figures but you've got the idea

jimmycrackcorm

prsi is of no use across the border so no financial loss then...

musec5

factually incorrect as it was available right throughout EU

cson

What percentage of your practice dealt with people using the PRSI scheme would you think? Is it widely availed of in other words - out of 10 people how many would avail of it?

And to pull you up on another point; the Government isn't returning €90 million to the alcohol industry, it is simply due to collect €90million less in excise and duty receipts from alcohol next year. It's important that you contextualise that properly as you may give people the wrong impression.

msg11

musec5 wrote: »

not sure about your figures but you've got the idea

Yeah pulled them out of know-where.

Jaysis, thats pretty grim. If I understand corretly, its cheaper too have a tooth pulled than it filled when your not on PRSI.

If you are the difference is €40 or something?

I can see alot of people getting there teeth pulled out.

And whats the situation on teeth cleaning, this will be charged now then is it?

musec5

approx 35-40% of patients. at least 1 in 5 use it every year.
on your second point, if they take less tax, its essentially the same as giving the money back

musec5

msg11 wrote: »

Yeah pulled them out of know-where.

Jaysis, thats pretty grim. If I understand corretly, its cheaper too have a tooth pulled than it filled when your not on PRSI.

If you are the difference is €40 or something?

I can see alot of people getting there teeth pulled out.

And whats the situation on teeth cleaning, this will be charged now then is it?

yes to all of the above, makes nonsense to me

msg11

musec5 wrote: »

yes to all of the above, makes nonsense to me

Puzzled myself on that one, Only thing I have ever used my PRSI for!

Medical cards still the same?

cson

musec5 wrote: »

approx 35-40% of patients. at least 1 in 5 use it every year.
on your second point, if they take less tax, its essentially the same as giving the money back

But you get paid the same regardless of whether they use it or not? So you claim your staff are at risk when you're down €150 out of every 5 patients? Forgive me, but I don't buy that. For my money you started this out of self interest; it's hit your pocket and believe that the dental health of the PRSI worker is a secondary concern to you.

And it is not the same as giving the money back - how can it be?

Dannyboy83

To be honest, I've always found dentistry to be an insanely overpriced in this country even with whatever benefit I am supposed to be receiving (none as far as I was aware).

That is why I wait until I go abroad to have my teeth done.
Had them done on holidays in Poland a few years ago for a fraction of the cost here, even when factoring in the ryanair flights.
There was no noticeable difference in skill/quality, possibly even slightly better abroad, despite the horror stories in the media.
I will be doing so again in April 2010 in Lithuania.

I don't think this is anything new, I believe there has been a huge trend in people doing so since mid Celtic Pyramid.
Dentists in this country will have to respond to market conditions and offer better value for money or face extinction, the same as every other profession.

starbelgrade

My dentist was texting all his clients in November to get themselves in for their last free cleaning on the PRSI before the budget came into effect. Crafty opportunism or good business sense?!!

musec5

cson wrote: »

But you get paid the same regardless of whether they use it or not? So you claim your staff are at risk when you're down €150 out of every 5 patients? Forgive me, but I don't buy that. For my money you started this out of self interest; it's hit your pocket and believe that the dental health of the PRSI worker is a secondary concern to you.

again factually incorrect. PRSI treatment benefits was a fee per item scheme, you only get paid for work done. no scheme, no work done on it, no pay for it

musec5

Puzzled myself on that one, Only thing I have ever used my PRSI for!

Medical cards still the same?
Puzzled myself on that one, Only thing I have ever used my PRSI for!

Medical cards still the same?

med card budget restricted to 2008 levels, with 40% more med card holders now than then. join the waiting list for approval for treatment from the HSE now cause it could be several months before the treatment is approved

Big_G

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

To be honest, I've always found dentistry to be an insanely overpriced in this country even with whatever benefit I am supposed to be receiving (none as far as I was aware).

That is why I wait until I go abroad to have my teeth done.
Had them done on holidays in Poland a few years ago for a fraction of the cost here, even when factoring in the ryanair flights.
There was no noticeable difference in skill/quality, possibly even slightly better abroad, despite the horror stories in the media.
I will be doing so again in April 2010 in Lithuania.

I don't think this is anything new, I believe there has been a huge trend in people doing so since mid Celtic Pyramid.
Dentists in this country will have to respond to market conditions and offer better value for money or face extinction, the same as every other profession.

With respect, you are not qualified to judge the quality of dentistry provided abroad. All you can say is that you were happy with the service.

And when dentists are extinct, who provides dental services? That is a ridiculous statment.

In fairness, if the cost of providing dentistry was the same as it is in Eastern Europe, in terms of labour, materials, insurance, equipment, rent, taxes etc, etc, etc, dentists here would be able to compete with Eastern European prices. Again, shortsighted comment.

As far as the hacking of the DTSS is concerned, the bottom line is that people won't be able to get treatment. Secondary to that is that dental practices will close, with the loss of jobs and money back into the economy. I just don't think it is fair to people who pay PRSI or to dentists to cut this scheme. It is a prelude to this universal social contribution scheme coming next year.

MI5

musec5 wrote: »

As the co-owner of a dental practice in rural Ireland, i wish to bring your readers attention to the following text from the budget measures.

Treatment Benefits
In 2010, the entitlements under the Treatment Benefit Scheme will be limited to the Medical and Surgical appliances scheme and the free examination elements of the Dental and Optical Benefit schemes.


This scheme has delivered free or subsidised dental, optical and aural treatment to prsi insured workers and their dependant spouses for over 55 years. Last year over 400,000 individuals accessed dental treatment through this scheme and almost 2 million people were entitled to avail of it. It is now proposed to take a machete to this scheme and leave only a small element of it standing. This will come into effect in Jan 2010. This was one of the only tangible benefits to the PRSI insured person and will now be decimated. We are told that this abomination of a decision may deliver €52M in savings. Contrast this saving with the €90M being returned to the alcohol industry, which can hardly be accused of improving anyone's health, or to €60M being granted to horse and greyhound racing, which is enjoyed by a relative minority. I would deplore the present Government's commitment to dental and oral health (a fact in evidence for several years and portrayed by the failure to secure a dental advisor or Chief Dental Officer) and question its commitment to delivering that which was intended when PRSI was first designed. Would the Minister for Finance now please admit that this has been a grave error in judgement and apologise to the PRSI payers of the State, or failing that, admit that PRSI is now, ipso facto, a tax which delivers no actual benefits to the insured worker.

Quick question for you, not related to PRSI.
It was mentioned on another thread this morning that many, many segments of the economy were reducing prices, just to stay alive in a deflationary environment.
It was suggested that some sectors were NOT reducing prices.
Examples give were doctors, dentists, legal and accounting professions.

I can say with certainty that the legal and accounting professions have reduced prices pretty sharply, as I deal with both regularly.

Pray tell us about the dental profession!!

musec5

our prices were reduced by 8% in june 2009 and will be reduced again by another 5% in jan. that would be a cumulative 13% in 7 months

ceret

musec5 wrote: »

if they take less tax, its essentially the same as giving the money back

Depends if they pass the saving on to the consumer. If they reduce the price of a pint by how much the tax went down, then it's the common man that gets more money. If, like me, you're cynical of the publicans, then they might keep the price the same and pocket the saving.

As regards your general point; I've little sympathy. Dentistry is so expensive here. It's much cheaper in the North. If you don't reduce your prices you'll have even less customers/patients.

davgtrek

I think that it was very informative for the dentist to post one of the hidden cuts in the budget.
i'd like to see a source for all the other ones. keep posting and well done.

Olduvai

There was also a 30% reduction in funding allocated for treatment of vulnerable groups - ie. those in residential care, children and older people who are in long-term care etc.

BrownianMotion

Direct supplements like this normally benefit the service provider a lot more than service user.

The public's perception of the cost of dentists is poor enough already, so it will be interesting to see whether this will result in a full price hike or if dentists will take the hit in their profit margins.

I'd suspect the government expects dentists to take much of the hit, which makes it an acceptable cut at a time when cuts must be made.

Don't expect any public outrage at this one.

loyatemu

musec5 wrote: »

As the co-owner of a dental practice in rural Ireland, i wish to bring your readers attention to the following text from the budget measures.

Treatment Benefits
In 2010, the entitlements under the Treatment Benefit Scheme will be limited to the Medical and Surgical appliances scheme and the free examination elements of the Dental and Optical Benefit schemes.

where is that section in the budget speech? certainly can't find it in the transcript I checked.

The implication is that the free examination (and cleaning?) will remain, but the benefit for actual treatment will not. How much was this benefit worth - I had 2 fillings carried out earlier this year and it still came to €120 after the prsi benefit had been applied...

Wheety

loyatemu wrote: »

where is that section in the budget speech? certainly can't find it in the transcript I checked.

The implication is that the free examination (and cleaning?) will remain, but the benefit for actual treatment will not. How much was this benefit worth - I had 2 fillings carried out earlier this year and it still came to €120 after the prsi benefit had been applied...

I think it would have been another €67 without the PRSI.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/DentalOpticalAndHearingBenefits/Pages/dental_sof.aspx

dolliemix

I've been using this scheme for four or five years now. I get my teeth cleaned and checked every year and haven't paid a thing. My dentist had started putting some kind of protector on my teeth each time I went (also free). I found this service great. It meant I just made my appointment to go to the dentist and not worry about whether I had the money or not.

I'm equally as upset as OP.

soden12

Poor OP - another cashcow/hidden subsidy to the professional sector is gone.

Maybe now they'll reduce their prices to reasonable levels so that we won't be funding their blocks of flats in foreign places.

Didn't some guy post here that we had the highest paid dentists in Europe ?

ejmaztec

The scheme was never open to the self-employed or controlling directors of private companies, so it'll be business as usual for them i.e. not going to any dentist this side of the border.

It's about time some competition was generated, as dental charges here are not only through the roof, but have reached the ionosphere.

Portogirl

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone knows whether or not I can still claim back on treatments I had this year. I got invisaling braces back in March and paid €4k for them on my first visit. I will finish with the braces next year. Can I claim back any cash as I paid in full back in March 09. I have recently been made redundant and really need the cash so was hoping if I got the form in before Jan I might get some money back?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

ednwireland

i've never had this since i became self employed, i started a full time job 2 years ago and i'm still not entitled to it (5 years apparantley) anyway 3 fillings clean and 2 x rays were 250 (cant complain havent been for 4 years !)

freewheeler

cson wrote: »

Basically; you're out of pocket after it? Am I right?

great...another idiotic reply to a point well made...:mad:

bradyjam

i may be being a little dumb but i thank you for the info regardless of your supposed motivation, anyone one know where i can check out whats now available on prsi, i have been using my partners prsi for my checkups and fillings etc any idea if this will still be available to me?

Optical

This is really going to impact on us opticians now . I know most of us are just scraping along at the moment, barely able to pay staff wages. This will be the final nail in the coffin for many opticians..

BlaasForRafa

This is a big thing if someone needs serious dental work done. I had 2 wisdom teeth removed under general unaesthetic in 2002 and it cost less than €500, no way it would have cost that little if not for prsi.

around the same time I had a root canal done which took 2 one hour sessions with my dentist to get done and it cost €150 and he really had to work hard to clear that tooth of everything.... I imagine the charge would have been a hell of a lot more if not for prsi then.

So this is going to impact big time and its going to hit the lowest paid much harder, a lot of people are going to be in pain while they save up for a root canal or whatever and some will opt to have a cheaper extraction done rather than try and save a viable tooth. One of the very few benefits that prsi ever had is gone, prsi is just another tax without any tangible benefit.

musec5

bradyjam wrote: »

i may be being a little dumb but i thank you for the info regardless of your supposed motivation, anyone one know where i can check out whats now available on prsi, i have been using my partners prsi for my checkups and fillings etc any idea if this will still be available to me?

from a dental point of view, you can have an annual examination paid for by PRSI, nothing else.

in relation for my motivation for my OP, its very simple, you are the guys paying the PRSI, it was your benefit and now it has been hugely cut, but the government didn't tell you. i just thought you should know

Rujib1

musec5 wrote: »

from a dental point of view, you can have an annual examination paid for by PRSI, nothing else.

in relation for my motivation for my OP, its very simple, you are the guys paying the PRSI, it was your benefit and now it has been hugely cut, but the government didn't tell you. i just thought you should know

I went to my dentist a few weeks ago. Had examinatin and I am going back to have some work done. Dentist gave me the PRSI form to fill out and send away.

I did that, and today I got confirmation from the dept that my application has been approved. It said I should begin treatment within 3 months.
It lists a total of 17 different treatments which qualify for subsidy.

So my question is what's all this stuff about PRSI being of no benefit to me next year for dental work.

R1

Macca3000

Kind of in the same topic:

Can I claim tax relief on orthodontics I had done or has that been abolished too?
Finished and paid for (€5000) in September and just assumed I claim back on it in the new year. Does anyone know if this is still the case? If not then there goes a grand I was looking forward too to pay off Xmas bills.:mad:

thebman

Is their any evidence that dentists weren't just putting their prices up by the cost of the PRSI contribution.

Dentists in this country are massively expensive TBH. They need to reduce their prices as people don't go to dentists because its prohibitly expensive.

Rev. BlueJeans

Agreed.

As an aside, the dentists have a forum here (it's called dental issues, but seems more a platform for practising dentists to promote their own agenda than it is to offer advice), and in my own outside opinion, the bias there against dental tourism, and the blanket ban on discussing prices is interesting, shall we say...
Back to the topic at hand, these cuts are to my mind, the worst part of the budget, applying as they do to many ordinary working people, who can ill afford to pay these guys inflated fees, unlike those who get a medical card for whatever reason.

One would wonder what the point of prsi is any more. This mooted universal payment is simply another way of ringfencing the existing levies.

ninty9er

I've paid PRSI for 6 years, but because I've never worked full time I haven't contributed enough to benefit from this anyway.

It works out better in any case as I had a crown done last year that cost €800, which reduced taxable income by €800.

You can still reclaim it at the 20% tax rate. This hits the dental industry more than patients IMO.

In any case, PRSI is to be axed in Budget 2011.

Dannyboy83

Big_G wrote: »

With respect, you are not qualified to judge the quality of dentistry provided abroad. All you can say is that you were happy with the service.

Fair comment.
I am qualified to judge as a consumer tho, and I was unhappy with the cost of the services in Ireland.
Judging by my teeth - I would be inclined to say that the horror stories being spun in the media were borderline propaganda.

And when dentists are extinct, who provides dental services? That is a ridiculous statment.

Competitive Irish dentists? Foreign dentists?
They nearly all speak good English now and you can double up and work it into your holidays. Ryanair flights are a pittance if you time it right.

I haven't been to an Irish dentist in years now. They might be illegal for all I know.
I would encourage people to disregard what they've read/heard in the media and go check if for themselves.

In fairness, if the cost of providing dentistry was the same as it is in Eastern Europe, in terms of labour, materials, insurance, equipment, rent, taxes etc, etc, etc, dentists here would be able to compete with Eastern European prices. Again, shortsighted comment.

Shortsighted in what way?
labour, materials, insurance, equipment, rent, taxes - what business doesn't have to deal with these?

Irish dentists don't need to match EE prices.
They simply need to make it sufficiently attractive not to go abroad.

Like I said, Dentists in this country will have to respond to market conditions and offer better value for money or face extinction, the same as every other profession.

Taxipete29

Big_G wrote: »

With respect, you are not qualified to judge the quality of dentistry provided abroad. All you can say is that you were happy with the service.

And when dentists are extinct, who provides dental services? That is a ridiculous statment.

In fairness, if the cost of providing dentistry was the same as it is in Eastern Europe, in terms of labour, materials, insurance, equipment, rent, taxes etc, etc, etc, dentists here would be able to compete with Eastern European prices. Again, shortsighted comment.

As far as the hacking of the DTSS is concerned, the bottom line is that people won't be able to get treatment. Secondary to that is that dental practices will close, with the loss of jobs and money back into the economy. I just don't think it is fair to people who pay PRSI or to dentists to cut this scheme. It is a prelude to this universal social contribution scheme coming next year.

Never mind Eastern European prices, what about competing with Dentists a couple of hours up the road.

We heard the same argument from the Pharmacists. Shops would close all over they said. I didnt believe them and I dont believe Dentists. Drop your prices and compete or else go out of business the same as any other industry.

4Sheets

So what the hell is psri then?..just another tax?.. with little obvious benefits

Stheno

4Sheets wrote: »

So what the hell is psri then?..just another tax?.. with little obvious benefits

It is also used to fund Job Seekers Benefit, the contributory Old Age Pension and various other social welfare allowances afaik