Who like's citizen's signature collection

MooseJam

Expensive and just a quartz but I think they are cool
Have blown my budget for this year but I'll be picking up a flyback chrono come 2010

http://www.citizen-signature.com

zenmonk

some nice watches there alright
I thought Quartz were frowned upon though?!

Trampoline

zenmonk wrote: »

some nice watches there alright
I thought Quartz were frowned upon though?!

By whom? They are more accurate than a mechanical watch can ever be - and a range like the Signature Collection is more reliable due to it's Eco-Drive technology (never needs a battery change). Add in the excellent fit and finish on the Signature Collection and you've got a great value timepiece with a top-class movement and a case/bracelet comparable to Swiss brands that are much much more expensive. For example - the sapphire crystal has a patented coating on both sides which allows 98% of light to pass through. This is an industry best, not beaten by ANYONE, and it means that the lens is pretty much invisible. You have to see it to appreciate it (or not see it, as the case may be!).

Wibbs

I'm not anti quartz. Some like the Seiko and Citizen high end models a re nice depending on ones own taste(personally they can have a bit of the Japanese aesthetic that doesnt appeal to me). I wouldn't spend big money on standard quartz with a fancy name. Tags etc. Now automatic movements are cheap enough, but quartz movements are much cheaper. so after that its the name and case/dial you pay for. Mostly the name.

As for accuracy. Most quartz watches aren't that accurate if that's really what youre after. Indeed a mechanical that gains a few seconds a day and loses a few seconds at night may end up more accurate over a month. Omega and Rolex had some true quartz chronometers back in the day. Biggggg money though. Not sure any makers have today though. I havent seen one anyway. The chronometer standards for quartz are very high. gain or loss of 6 seconds a year IIRC.

Investment wise mechanicals hold their value over time way more than quartz with a few exceptions(see above). Ditto for longevity if that's what youre after. family hierloom stuff all things being equal a mechanical will still be running in a 100 if not 200 years time. Early quartz watches with original movements are rare enough.

But they're pretty esoteric reasons. if you like the look of it thats the thing really.

Trampoline

All fair points Wibbs. Yes, of course there are mechanical watches which are more accurate than others and maybe I was rash in saying that quartz is more accurate "than a mechanical can ever be". However when you consider features like radio-control sync to the atomic clock and so on which are available on quartz watches you can see where I'm coming from. Personally I think that even your bog standard +/- 30 secs a month with "normal" quartz is pretty good.

Of course some people like the romantic notion of a mechanical watch and all the little cogs etc. turning around inside the case. I can fully understand this attraction, even if I personally prefer the technological advantages of a high-spec quartz movement. You are right about the fact that many people pay for the "name" - that's as true with watches as it is with fashion clothes and other products.

I also think it's interesting that certain japanese watch brands are now combining mechanical and quartz movements - e.g. a mechanical Chronograph on top of a quartz movement in the case of the Signature Flyback Chronograph that the original poster mentioned here. Other brands may do the same, there was a nice article on these combo quartz-mech movements in Watch Time magazine a few years back. Not sure if I'm allowed to post that here but I have a PDF if anyone's interested.

On the point about longevity - I'd say it remains to be seen how long the current high end quartz movements will last. As you move towards technologies that eliminate the need for battery changes, you increase longevity because you are no longer needing to remove the caseback. Remember that these watches are assembled in a dust-free environment - and when you remove the caseback dust will immediately get in. Therefore if you can avoid doing this, you should increase the movement's lifetime significantly. Not sure about 100 years though...! 90% of Citizen's range is now Eco-Drive for example, not sure about the numbers for Seiko or other competing technologies but my expectation is that the quartz watch industry will continue to move towards "no battery changes" over the next 20 years.

buck65

So back to mechanical?:D

Wibbs

More on quartz with an interesting postscript on longevity of the circuits themselves. http://www.timezone.com/library/archives/archives631703148375478424

Trampoline

Hi Bedlam. Thanks for your comments.

bedlam wrote: »

Never say never.

Well - I was quoting the marketing line here... With any product, things can go wrong.

bedlam wrote: »

For those not familiar, I'm sure you are, the Eco Drive is solar powered but the problem with that is the solar cells (unless it has changed recently) will not provide enough energy to fully run the watch on its own, to get around this they have a pre charged lithium ion battery which is kept topped up by the solar cell.

The reason for the marketing spin is that the lithium batteries are very reliable (shelf life of 10+ years before they start going bad) and I believe the cells used in the Eco Drive are good for ~500 cycles, each charge should be able to keep the watch running for about 4 years give or take (using complications will reduce this run time).

Hmmm, I am not a watchmaker so don't want to get too far out of my depth here... however I just spoke with a watchmaker who has been working on Citizen watches daily for 25 years. He told me the following:

• If you remove the power cell (Lithium Ion like you say) from an Eco-Drive movement, it will run as long as it's in the light. It will then stop when you switch the light off.
• The Li Ion power cell is where the charge is stored, so that when the watch is in darkness it draws power from this. (I guess this is more or less in line with what you said Bedlam).
• Even if the Li Ion cell were discharged fully and the watch stopped, it can be restarted by charging it in direct light - without need to open the caseback, unless of course something else has gone wrong or the power cell has failed.

I suppose Citizen's "never needs a battery" line refers to conventional, non-rechargeable watch batteries (as opposed to a Li Ion cell). I can see how you might say this is splitting hairs a bit. What I would say with certainty is that you can usually go a long time without opening the caseback - far longer than with a conventional replaceable battery. Would you agree?

bedlam wrote: »

Any data to back that up?

I presume you mean data about comparisons, as opposed to the 98% which is a number quoted in Citizen sales materials.

I do not have data on this - it is something I was told this by Citizen when Signature was launched. I was told that it's "better than Breitling, which is regarded as the best" (for light passthrough). I have not done any research on it but I'd be shocked if there were a better sapphire crystal out there.

bedlam wrote: »

Unfortunately batteries are not the only reason you'll need to crack open a watch, the gaskets that ensure water resistance will deteriorate over time and according to Citizen Japan, should be replaced every 2 - 3 years.

Yes, that is stated on the Citizen warranty (and I imagine most other manufacturers have a similar recommendation). Personally I have never had a problem with a rubber seal or gasket wearing out. My oldest Eco-Drive dates from 2001 and has never been opened. It is still water-resistant. However, to keep in line with warranty this recommendation should technically be followed.

I do believe that the less you have to open a caseback, the better.

The same watchmaker mentioned above told me that it is rare for a gasket to actually need replacing before at least 5-6 years. That should not be taken as an official Citizen line though! The text in the warranty is quite explicit, I am only quoting experience here is anecdotal.

bedlam wrote: »

I'd assume that there will be copy right issues so probably best not. Is it on Seiko's Spring Drive technology?

The article appeared in the April 2006 issue. I found the link at the magazine's website:
http://www.watchtime.at/archive/wt_2006_02/WT_2006_02_114.pdf
It's an old article now but I found it interesting. It's very much an article on Citizen though (the author visited their factory).

The Flyback Chrono mentioned by the original poster here has a movement which is a slight variation on Calibre 2100.

Is Spring Drive also a mech-quartz combination? I'm not familiar with the technology, although I've seen some pics. Very nice watches.