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Pay cuts for workers in Irish Rail, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann?
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09-12-2009 10:44pm#1
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Crocro sez: Very disappointing to hear CIE workers texting and calling the Last Word on Today FM tonight, gloating about how they haven't had a pay cut.
As an attendee at the Last Word programme I too was surprised at the message relating to the ESB and CIE wages and conditions.
Oddly enough the wording was somewhat similar to this...
:rolleyes:It would be strange if all public sector workers had pay cuts but RTE, ESB, Bord Gais, CIE etc were spared.
It should be noted that CIE Road Passenger staff were NOT included in either of the benchmarking exercises and therefore could be said to be on a more level playing field in this particular matter.
CIE wages grade staff have paid the same Income Levy as every other employee and additionally do NOT have access to the much vaunted Public Sector Pension Scheme.
It is also worth noting that the last "survival" plan agreed with Bus Atha Cliath included acceptance of reduced wage rates and new classifications of driver which led to the substantial abolition of overtime payments.
The Bus Atha Cliath trades unions have proven to be a somewhat more pragmatic and representative grouping than many other Union groupings and I fully expect this to continue.Spareman: Now that the public Vs private debate has been sorted lets take down CIE workers?
It`s hugely illustrative that this "debate" was allowed (encouraged) to dominate the entire Budgetary process to the detriment of all else.
I`m uncertain as to what crocro`s evaluation of a CIE Busdriver`s wage is,but I can assure him that I and my colleagues will not have to worry about the new "SuperLevy" on High Earners domiciled in Ireland.
It may well be that this form of "New Irelander" will be an intrinsic part of our Country for the foreseeable future,forever doomed to sit at the bar speculating on what the fella next door is earning and how he can afford to go to Bingo TWICE a week.
Every form of servile work has a rate or band within which an average stabilises.
In the case of the CIE Road Passenger companies their basic has traditionally been at the mid point of the industry scale.
However,equally traditionally,the private sector tended to make up any shortfall in Basic rate with a somewhat more innovative "package" much of which made full use of any tax-free classifications which were available,such as meals or subsistance allowances.
It probably will all come back down to self-worth and the point at which people in ANY employment refuse to countenance further reductions.
There are of course other issues coming into play which may serve to frustrate the Radio Show callers and that is the ongoing EU driven programmes to "Professionalize" the Bus and Truck Drivers job.
Programmes such as the Drivers Certificate of Proffessional Competency are already restricting entry into what was an open-door career choice and the next phases of this programme will see a further upping of the ante in relation to achieving and maintaining the vocational qualifications.
On that basis alone,I would be somewhat sceptical of crocro`s desired 5% cut actually materialising without associated compensatory clawbacks.
In fact,given the Luas Tramdrivers recent wage increase agreed,with the operator Veolia,under the remit of the Railway Procurement Agency,I would consider that Busdrivers can point to substantial precedence for commencing negotiations on a similar agreement for their sector given that Tramdrivers have a far more automated,segretated and safer working environment.
However in the current climate,if it keeps Radio Shows in Listeners then I`m sure it`s equally of some value to somebody,somewhere
Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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The rumour is 120 buses to be taken off the road in new year.
Looks like the government wants to get more people to use cars as transport, more money to be made that way.
There is little doubt but the Bus Atha Cliath situation is going to return to our screens early in the new year.
The early warning signs have been flashing since the implimentation of the "Survival Plan" .
The surprise departure of some of the most senior executives combined with a hasty round of internal clerical & supervisory promotions gave a very significant warning of the deck-chairs being re-arranged prior to the torpedo striking.
Coupled with this,most locations have witnessed a splurge of spending on all manner of external contract related works.
Hi tech innovations such as digitized radios,centralized control systems and bus door brakes have been introduced at quite substantial cost.
This flurry of activity has stopped short of addressing the VERY large elephant sitting down at the back of the bus....the large increase in those producing DSFA Free Passes for their journey.
RTE`s Prime Time exposé on Monday 14th nodded briefly in the direction by interviewing ONE career criminal who is printing and selling the DSFA Free Pass for €100....and it`s his "most popular" line...I`ll bet it is !
None of this appears to have impacted upon BAC management whose official line is that fraud is "minimal" ...below 1.7% at the last count it seems.
The rather obvious drop in BAC`s business evident from late 2008 appears to have stabilized and on some routes very definitely reversed.
This may be attributable to the delay-factor on people acclimatising to unemployment and of the cushion effect of redundancy lump-sums and Jobseekers Benefit.
However,12 months in to a period of unemployment,the financial situation often starts to contract alarmingly and it is only then that the car goes on the market public transport availability becomes of interest.
With Ministers Lenihan and Dempsey both in agreement that Public Transport services will suffer more cutbacks we can see therefore that those already suffering will be required to suffer a bit more.
Both of these Ministers and particularly Mr Dempsey have staked a considerable amount of their political credibility on introducing and otherwise facilitating the expansion of Toll-Road operations into Ireland.
Neither Minister for example was prepared to leglislate that ALL Public Transport should be Toll-Free at ALL such facilities in the State.
It is a rather basic fact of life that in a depressionary cycle the financial success of a Tolling facility is Not Helped by the presence of any form of Public Transport,particularly one which is actually capable of being more efficient to Car Drivers.
This is only one area where Government (Non) policy is very actively conspiring to act against the common good whilst equally actively assisting a small sector of the Irish Motor Industry.
It should be noted that the Irish Motor Industry is more than simply a well coiffed Bill Cullen offering to sit-u-into a new Clio for €X,000.
The real motor industry is the remants of the small Garage Trade who operate in increasing hardship as they attempt to cater for a customer base desperate to keep their 10 year old motor for a bit longer.
The Government seemingly would prefer that that Germanic frugality was thrown aside in the rush to get a brand new Shiny imported Car on the drip.....arranged for you by Bill of course....:)
Sorry...back on topic.....Yes there will be more Public Transport cuts and sooner rather than later ! Ding Ding !!!
Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Just looking at the UBS comparisons of bus driver pay in various cities carried out in 2006 and 2009, you can see where Dublin ranks. There are plenty of cities more advanced than Dublin where drivers are considerably worse off. Also we've moved up the ranking from 2006-2009.
Whilst the UBS comparative tables are useful for many statistical purposes their actual relevance is marginal at best.
The current gross of c.€32K is not in my (admittedly biased) opinion unduly excessive.
The UBS figures also have yet to take on board the changes introduced on foot of the "survival" plan which has quite dramatically reduced the basic rate for a significant number of drivers who now work a permanent Late Rota..
I`m not so certain one can ascribe the tag "Worse off" to any citizen of another juristiction.
I`m not sure a Busdriver in London,Toronto,Barcelona or Helsinki is any "Worse off" in any quantifiable manner given the wildly differing set of social norms which prevail even within the EU.I think some posters in this thread are suggesting that I texted newstalk pretending to be a gloating CIE worker
There is little doubt but the sudden appearance of these Gloating Texts was a very Politically motivated ocurrence indeed.
There are so many disparate sectors of Irish society now that one could pick any number of likely suspects and probably be correct on all counts.
It would appear that many believe that swingeing cuts to everybody`s pay will suddenly and magically restore Irelands status as the wonderboy of Europe.
Few appear to have actually listened to Brian Cowen some months back when he spoke of a 20% drop in living standards.
That level of decrease is going to have a truly sharp effect on EVERYBODY,not just Busdrivers.
One of the problems with the Irish methodology employed during theyears of plenty was how we were encouraged to spend our magic-money on unsustainable stuff in order to massively enrich the sellers of such coloured smoke !
I rather suspect that your average Parisian,Barcelonan or Helsinkian Busdriver rersides in a modest centrally located apartment paying an equally modest,controlled rent.
On the other hand his Dublin counterpart is quite likely to be living in a hugely overvalued oversized house located some 100km from his workplace,driving a relatively late model car purchased as an integral part of the house purchase deal.
The Dublin Busdriver will most likely have applied for the Mortgage through a mortgage broker who will have utilised every concievable financial tool to leverage that Loan to its maximum with a huge reliance upon overtime payments to puff it out.
All of this,of course,has nothing to do with the employer,who will be under no little populist pressure to reduce payroll costs and put manners on those overpaid Busdrivers.
Once that`s done the clouds will part and a bright new sunlight dawn will ensure that we all live happily ever after.I'm sure AlekSmart is right on DSFA fraud and tolls for public transport but neither of those items will make as large or as immediate a difference to the CIE bottom line as cutting the wage bill. Spending on things like AVLS/RTPI is long overdue and while it might do little for the staff, the passengers have waited long enough.
Even the AVLS/RTPI advances mentioned by Crocro are so belated as to be far less effective than if the Company had been allowed to proceed with it`s original plans dating from over two decades ago.
The old Automatic Vehicle Monitoring system and its immediate forerunner the Storno Radio Control System were very advanced for their time,even meriting an appearance of BBC`s Tomorrows World as an illustration of this advancement.
Perhaps unsurprisingly,the considerable head-start which the CIE projects enjoyed was lost in a welter of Departmental in-fighting and the inevitable round of cutbacks which became the norm in 1980`s Ireland.
So as Crocro and many others appear to think that cutting the wage rates of the average employee will solve most of our problems we have a return to the time-honoured "Traditional" round of confrontation and it`s associated fall out.
However this time it`s going to be far more wide ranging than "just" Bus Atha Cliath or Bus Éireann and will most likely see the country return to the era of strikes and disruption far and wide.
Meanwhile our Banking elite continue to enjoy a round or two at Greystones when the opportunity allows....
Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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The way CIE strikes worked in the past was like this:
* Public can't get to work/school
* Public complain to TDs
* TDs put pressure on minister to resolve strike
* Minister tells boss of CIE to resolve strike asap
* CIE capitulates
The reality of "CIE" strikes in the recent past has been far less stark.
Public Transport generally in modern Ireland was not regarded as worth patronising when the option was a "Little Car of your own".
Thus the relatively few recent Bus strikes were rather tame affairs with little real impact upon the travelling public who had options available and who utilized those to the full.
Conversely the current ongoing depression is,if anything,returning a bit of leverage to the wild eyed militant beards that make up all of the workforce.
Hopefully it won`t come to all that oul stuff but if it does then the effects will be a bit more apparent than in the immediate past.Still there's a broad picture from these surveys that you just can't argue with - a driver in Ireland taking home 70% more cash than his equivalent in France.
One of the reasons that goods and housing cost more in Ireland during the boom was because we had decided to pay ourselves so much more. The prices followed the salaries rather than the other way around.
The reality is a country and its people who suspended their reality gene to give themselves a standing in life way way beyond what was affordable or sustainable.
I would suggest that the Irish Busdriver`s 70% greater wage packet astually purchased far less of intrinsic value than his French counterpart.
One could perhaps argue that for all that 70% excess the Irish Busdriver was in actuality far worse-off than his Gallic colleague.That's what we voted for: local & national politicians who would inflate the boom through rezoning, tax incentives, sprawl housing and easy credit.
That "we" usually amounted to around 50% of those entitled to vote,pretty much the usual-suspects at each election who were "great party people" and could be trusted to hoist the likes of Padraig Flynn and Michael Lowry onto their shoulders.
Its all academic now anyway,as the Country is essentially set on a self-destruct course which will pit brother against brother,neighbour against neighbour particularly in the urban areas.
This may well be seen by some as a cathartic process necessary for the rejuvenation of the country,but in reality only serves to further enrich the group of influential individuals who massaged and cajoled a gullible population into mass financial hysteria.
As always,the simplistic amongst us tend to see salvation at the first calling point.
Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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[QUOTE]It began with media reports on Sunday over the anomaly in the treatment of those who work in the public service and those who work in the commercial State sector. The 300,000 or so public servants, including civil servants, teachers, health service workers and gardaí, have been hit successively with a pay freeze, a pension levy and now a pay cut.
In contrast, many of the 42,000 workers in the commercial semi-State sector have got a pay rise, avoided the pension levy and have not been subject to a pay cut even though they enjoy the same pension provisions as civil servants.[/QUOTE]
It`s worth quoting at greater length from abbrieviated Stephen Collins Irish Times piece posted by crocro .
The phraseology itself is interesting as Mr Collins appears to indicate that the entire Semi-State pay "issue" was media driven from the outset.
The numbers are also worthwhile pausing to reflect upon when one has regard for the amount of sound and light expended by the media on the topic.
300,000 vs 42,000 in total with almost as many column inches stacked up against the Semi-State employees as for the entire Public Service itself.
The somewhat opportune appearance of "Ordinary" grade Semi-State employees to gloat in text format over their supposed immunity from cuts thus far.
As if that was`nt enough to make a reader somewhat suspicious,Mr Collins then goes on to make a highly innacurate...no wait....at best,just plain WRONG...ie: INCORRECT or at worst maliciously intended DISINFORMATION by suggesting that Semi-State employees share the same pension provisions as Public Servants.
I`ll stick to my own employment in Bus Atha Cliath,where the company has already secured agreement on cost reductions through a survival plan an integral part of which was a deferral of the Pay Rise due under the last round of collective bargaining.
We also pay the FULL income levies imposed upon all workers,no dispensation there.
I do not pay the Public Service Pension levy because I am not a member of that Pension Scheme,something which is a matter of basic record and surely not beyond the ken of a reputable journalist to research and confirm.
My employee pension after 40 years service and retiring at age 65 amounts to approx €124 per week.
If I elect to opt for a lump sum on retirement that will entail a commutation of the weekly pension to approx €88.
I would respectfully suggest to Stephen Collins and other commentators that these figures hardly merit further levying unless it`s to transfer some of the funding from the Oireachtas Ministerial Pension fund to support elderly crocks of Busdrivers in their abbreviated retirement.
It may well be that the actions Stephen Collins ascribes to Minister Dempsey and the Cabinet at large are based more upon common-sense and a realization that the sectoral figures don`t compute than any cave-in to a tribe of savage beardies at the gates of Leinster House.
Thats the frontline staff out of the way....however, when we move on up to the executive washroom things start to get a little murkier and a lot more difficult to make sense of as the CEO salary figures suddenly appear to sprout wings and all sorts of references to performance bonuses and taxable-enhancements start to appear.
Now where did I put that article about the hugely innovative methods of funding Major McDowells lifestyle ? Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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