Is the Catholic Church really sorry?

zod

I notice the bishops are asking for forgiveness today and are "shamed by the extent to which child sexual abuse was covered up in the archdiocese of Dublin"

Are they sorry enough to rip up the contract that limits the churches liability to €100 million to compensate the victims?

PDN

zod wrote: »

I notice the bishops are asking for forgiveness today and are "shamed by the extent to which child sexual abuse was covered up in the archdiocese of Dublin"

Are they sorry enough to rip up the contract that limits the churches liability to €100 million to compensate the victims?

I think you're confusing two things. Being sorry is not the same as opening yourself up to unlimited liability.

zod

PDN wrote: »

I think you're confusing two things. Being sorry is not the same as opening yourself up to unlimited liability.

From Wikipedia

The word penance derives from Old French and Latin poenitentia, both of which derive from the same root meaning repentance, the desire to be forgiven.....Often, penitential acts consist simply of prayers, fasting, charitable work or giving, or a combination thereof. Such penance is frequently accompanied by a requirement for the penitent to be reconciled with anyone against whom he or she has sinned.

The liability has been caused by members of the church .. tell me why do you think it should be limited and the Irish people made pay the difference ( 1 Billion ) ?

PDN

zod wrote: »

From Wikipedia

So do you want to talk about being sorry, or about penance? The two are distinct concepts.

The liability has been caused by members of the church .. tell me why do you think it should be limited and the Irish people made pay the difference ( 1 Billion ) ?

Tell me, why do you jump to unwarranted and untrue assumptions about what I think?

I would be perfectly happy for the Catholic Church (of which I am not a member) to pay what liability is due to the last farthing. I fail to see how anything I posted could suggest otherwise.

Sam Vimes

PDN wrote: »

I think you're confusing two things. Being sorry is not the same as opening yourself up to unlimited liability.

I wouldn't say the liability is unlimited, if they were truly sorry they'd allow themselves to be fully liable for the suffering that they caused. It just seems unlimited because they caused so very much suffering.

jhegarty

zod wrote: »

The liability has been caused by members of the church .. tell me why do you think it should be limited and the Irish people made pay the difference ( 1 Billion ) ?

Because the state was more at fault than the Church.

The Church doesn't run the guards or the courts. That's who had the primary responsibility when crimes were committed.

Sam Vimes

jhegarty wrote: »

Because the state was more at fault than the Church.

The Church doesn't run the guards or the courts. That's who had the primary responsibility when crimes were committed.

I accept that the state should bear some responsibility but in fairness the people who bear primary responsibility are the rapists and organisation they belonged to that did everything they could to cover it up.

georgelowden

how come these guys are not in jail/court..
harboring a criminal is also an offense....?

zod

PDN wrote: »

So do you want to talk about being sorry, or about penance? The two are distinct concepts.

The linked article is titled "Irish bishops ask for forgiveness"

I even showed how both concepts are related with a quote on the definition :

The word penance ... [comes from] the desire to be forgiven... usually accompanied by a requirement for the penitent to be reconciled with anyone against whom he or she has sinned

Are you saying that we can take seriously the Churches desire to be forgiven and at the same time their refusal to do penance?


How very Christian.

Graces7

The short answer to the question, if you refer to the hierarchy is an emphatic no.

NB most of those they offended against are of course - or -were. also part of the Catholic Church.

But assuming you do mean the Bishops?

No; their only sorrow is that they have been found out.

I write as someone who loves Holy Mother Church but is appalled at the events here in Ireland now.

Really, from their behaviour, they are truly not Catholic, or Christian.

And never underestimate the power the Church has held over eg the Gardai and State organisations and the deference they showed the the Church.

The Church was the instigator.

And unless we see this and look it full in the face ? Nothing will improve.

One of the prosecutions of a priest mentioned in the report only happened because a lower officer in the Gardai knew that if he sent the reports higher up, the charges would vanish.

The clerical whispers site is a good one to keep in touch on this.

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2009-12-10T00%3A00%3A00Z

By the way, I am a Historian working on a book re the Church in Ireland in this first decade of the 21st century.

So their words just now really cannot be believed.

MrPudding

jhegarty wrote: »

Because the state was more at fault than the Church.

The Church doesn't run the guards or the courts. That's who had the primary responsibility when crimes were committed.

This is, of course, utter rubbish. The church is the organisation responsible for the persons that carried out the rapes. This same church is also responsible for actively, institutionally and systematically covering up the rapes and by doing so, causing more children to be raped. They actively took part in the abuse.

The government did nothing. That in itself is wrong, but failing to act, in this case, is not worse than the action that were taken by the church. Appalling? Yes. Cowardly? Yes. Worse than raping children, covering that up and putting more children at risk? No.

MRP

Graces7

This is what many of us within the Church are asking; also how come they are not being sacked?

In any other walk of life they would be.

There should be no difference.

georgelowden wrote: »

how come these guys are not in jail/court..
harboring a criminal is also an offense....?

kelly1

From the Vatican Information Service Bulletin:

IRISH BISHOPS MEET WITH POPE



VATICAN CITY, 11 DEC 2009 (VIS) - The Holy See Press Office released the following English-language communique at midday today:

"Today the Holy Father held a meeting with senior Irish bishops and high-ranking members of the Roman Curia. He listened to their concerns and discussed with them the traumatic events that were presented in the Irish Commission of Investigation's Report into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin.

"After careful study of the report, the Holy Father was deeply disturbed and distressed by its contents. He wishes once more to express his profound regret at the actions of some members of the clergy who have betrayed their solemn promises to God, as well as the trust placed in them by the victims and their families, and by society at large.

"The Holy Father shares the outrage, betrayal and shame felt by so many of the faithful in Ireland, and he is united with them in prayer at this difficult time in the life of the Church.

"His Holiness asks Catholics in Ireland and throughout the world to join him in praying for the victims, their families and all those affected by these heinous crimes.

"He assures all concerned that the Church will continue to follow this grave matter with the closest attention in order to understand better how these shameful events came to pass and how best to develop effective and secure strategies to prevent any recurrence.

"The Holy See takes very seriously the central issues raised by the report, including questions concerning the governance of local Church leaders with ultimate responsibility for the pastoral care of children.

"The Holy Father intends to address a Pastoral Letter to the faithful of Ireland in which he will clearly indicate the initiatives that are to be taken in response to the situation.

"Finally, His Holiness encourages all those who have dedicated their lives in generous service to children to persevere in their good works in imitation of Christ the Good Shepherd".

Graces7

Kelly1;these are fine words, but they do not address the real problems.

This is a political move; crimes were committed and the Vatican knew this decades ago and did nothing.

In fact, this response, as it seems that no actions are being taken against the Bishops who committed these abominations, makes the situation much worse.

Had there been any real sorrow, the Bishops would have simply stood down of their own accord, or been sacked.

Fanny Cradock

kelly1 wrote: »

From the Vatican Information Service Bulletin:

Has the Pope ever made a personal and corporate apology in front of the worlds press? It seems that this would be far more dramatic and meaningful gesture than a thousand 3rd-person expression of regrets ever could.

Fanny Cradock

Graces7 wrote: »

Kelly1;these are fine words, but they do not address the real problems.

This is a political move; crimes were committed and the Vatican knew this decades ago and did nothing.

In fact, this response, as it seems that no actions are being taken against the Bishops who committed these abominations, makes the situation much worse.

Had there been any real sorrow, the Bishops would have simply stood down of their own accord, or been sacked.

Yes. For any real healing to begin it seems to me that the Church has to take some very public and very painful actions against itself.

Graces7

Exactly so ; and of course not.

Because that would be an admission of guilt that may well have legal repercussions, as it should do.

And I came back to say that; and this is how the press are reacting.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/ireland/pope-stops-short-of-outright-apology-for-clerical-abuse-437896.html


The vatican is a political organisation; that statement will have been carefully prepared for the Pope by lawyers and advisers; as he as Ratzinger used to prepare statements for John Paul 2.

Another nail in the coffin of the Irish Catholic Church. And I write from
within the Church.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Has the Pope ever made a personal and corporate apology in front of the worlds press? It seems that this would be far more dramatic and meaningful gesture than a thousand 3rd-person expression of regrets ever could.

Graces7

The latest news on this.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/ireland/pope-criticsed-for-response-to-abuse-report-437969.html

and

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2009/12/irish-catholic-church-shake-up-likely.html

dvpower

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Yes. For any real healing to begin it seems to me that the Church has to take some very public and very painful actions against itself.

Not likely under the current Pope since cover up was a policy of the vatican

The Guardian wrote:

The Vatican instructed Catholic bishops around the world to cover up cases of sexual abuse or risk being thrown out of the Church.
The Observer has obtained a 40-year-old confidential document from the secret Vatican archive which lawyers are calling a 'blueprint for deception and concealment'.

Granted this is an old policy, but the current pope was enforcing it until recently.

The Guardian wrote:

Lawyers point to a letter the Vatican sent to bishops in May 2001 clearly stating the 1962 instruction was in force until then. The letter is signed by Cardinal Ratzinger

I wonder should these public and painful actions include the resignation of the Pope.

Bduffman

What I find strange is that the main call from the public/media seems to be for bishops to resign orf be removed from their positions. If someone in any other walk of life commits a crime, their employment status is hardly the main concern. Shouldn't they be prosecuted?

MrPudding

Bduffman wrote: »

What I find strange is that the main call from the public/media seems to be for bishops to resign orf be removed from their positions. If someone in any other walk of life commits a crime, their employment status is hardly the main concern. Shouldn't they be prosecuted?

Of course they should be prosecuted, but they should also be removed from their position. Can you imagine if this was any other industry, the leisure industry for example. If there was a comapny running kids birthday parties and it was discovered that the workers were abusing the kids and the managers were covering it up, do you think those workers and managers would still be working with kids? Do you think that company would astill be in business?

MrP

Michael G

Bduffman wrote: »

What I find strange is that the main call from the public/media seems to be for bishops to resign or be removed from their positions. If someone in any other walk of life commits a crime, their employment status is hardly the main concern. Shouldn't they be prosecuted?

Of course, if they committed an offence in law. But they should resign anyway. Even if they did or meant no harm, they should do it for the Church, as a sacrifice.

ToniTuddle

Resigning isn't enough of a sacrifice in my view.

Everyone of them that committed crimes and helped cover it up deserve to be in jail and lose their priesthood or whatever status they have.

It's almost like people have become de-sensitised to it all.
People get use to seeing violence on TV not much shocks people anymore.

If people actually really read into all of this, the cold brutal facts there would be more done. But as outraged as the public are, they simply don't want to hear the horrible details.
Half the time I think this country has no fight left in it.:mad:

Bduffman

Michael G wrote: »

Of course, if they committed an offence in law. But they should resign anyway. Even if they did or meant no harm, they should do it for the Church, as a sacrifice.

My point is that in most other professions / employment, a person convicted of a crime like this would probably be sacked anyway as a matter of course. It wouldn't be left up to the individual to decide his own fate regarding his employment.

SirHenryGrattan

Bduffman wrote: »

My point is that in most other professions / employment, a person convicted of a crime like this would probably be sacked anyway as a matter of course. It wouldn't be left up to the individual to decide his own fate regarding his employment.

Well the RCC also tolerates active homosexual priests which is totally against their own teachings. So I suggest the Bishops overall judgement is a bit iffy.

Son Of A Vidic

The Church is sorry - sorry it's been exposed, sorry for it's dwindling power, sorry for the money it will lose, sorry that the 'good old days are gone' and sorry that it's no longer above the law. But is it genuinely sorry to it's victims and the Irish people? absolutely not!

IrelandsBishops

zod wrote: »

I notice the bishops are asking for forgiveness today and are "shamed by the extent to which child sexual abuse was covered up in the archdiocese of Dublin"

Are they sorry enough to rip up the contract that limits the churches liability to €100 million to compensate the victims?

As a Life long Catholic aged 54, I take the apologies of the Irish Bishops with a pinch of salt. I personally witnessed brutal corporal punishment by [snip] during my boarding school days in Holy Cross College ,in Falcarragh Co. Donegal. He was recently quoted in the press that he had enough to be getting on with without going back on what happened 30 years ago.,,,is it any wonder he doesn't want the past investigated.

Boston

zod wrote: »

The liability has been caused by members of the church .. tell me why do you think it should be limited and the Irish people made pay the difference ( 1 Billion ) ?

Well the state was at fault also. On paper there was quiet a strict review of these homes for boys and girls by state officials. The state was arm in arm with the church in covering up and simply ignoring the abuse. Everyone and their cat knew what was happening in those places, the only surprise was the scale of it.

zod

Boston wrote: »

Well the state was at fault also. On paper there was quiet a strict review of these homes for boys and girls by state officials. The state was arm in arm with the church in covering up and simply ignoring the abuse. Everyone and their cat knew what was happening in those places, the only surprise was the scale of it.

And society was to blame and the newspapers and the blah, blah.. BLAH, they can all be sued to maximum extent of the law.

The priests did it. FACT

The church knew about and covered it up. FACT

The church refused to participate with any investigation until they were safely protected by a contract that limited their liability. FACT

Nobody else is protected, not the state, not the schools, not the media.

NOW they're sorry ? While the pope himself hides behind legalise ?*

It was always about the money. That being the case then we should take every last penny off them.



*The documentary presented by child abuse survivor and Executive Director of Amnesty International Ireland revealed how the then Cardinal Ratzinger wrote to Catholic bishops in 2001 to remind them of the penalties for leaking details of inquiries into offences such as clerical sex abuse
The then cardinal issued a secret Vatican edict to Catholic bishops all over the world, instructing them to put the Church's interests ahead of child safety, the BBC reported.
The document recommended that rather than reporting sexual abuse to the relevant legal authorities, bishops should encourage the victim, witnesses and perpetrator not to talk about it.
To keep victims quiet, it threatened that if they repeated the allegations they would be excommunicate, the report said. - Article

Boston

zod wrote: »

And society was to blame and the newspapers and the blah, blah.. BLAH, they can all be sued to maximum extent of the law.

The priests did it. FACT

The church knew about and covered it up. FACT

The church refused to participate with any investigation until they were safely protected by a contract that limited their liability. FACT

Nobody else is protected, not the state, not the schools, not the media.

NOW they're sorry ? While the pope himself hides behind legalise ?*

It was always about the money. That being the case then we should take every last penny off them.



*The documentary presented by child abuse survivor and Executive Director of Amnesty International Ireland revealed how the then Cardinal Ratzinger wrote to Catholic bishops in 2001 to remind them of the penalties for leaking details of inquiries into offences such as clerical sex abuse
The then cardinal issued a secret Vatican edict to Catholic bishops all over the world, instructing them to put the Church's interests ahead of child safety, the BBC reported.
The document recommended that rather than reporting sexual abuse to the relevant legal authorities, bishops should encourage the victim, witnesses and perpetrator not to talk about it.
To keep victims quiet, it threatened that if they repeated the allegations they would be excommunicate, the report said. - Article

The state is directly Liable FACT
The state had a duty of care to these children FACT
State officals inspected the various "homes" on a regular basis FACT
There was collusion between government officials and the church to repress evidence of sexual abuse FACT

I'm not saying the church is innocent. I'm not looking for a scapegoat, but by any metric you use the state is also Liable.

zod

Boston wrote: »

I'm not saying the church is innocent. I'm not looking for a scapegoat, but by any metric you use the state is also Liable.

we know that.

the state is not protected and will be made pay

the church is protected and is not being made PROPERLY liable.

Boston

Grand. You post suggested you felt the government hadn't it share of responsibility.

Bduffman

Boston wrote: »

I'm not saying the church is innocent. I'm not looking for a scapegoat, but by any metric you use the state is also Liable.

Thats all very well. But by saying the state is liable, it means the state has to pay. That means the taxpayer - you & me. I don't know about you but I'm certainly not responsible for any of this so I don't see why I should pay.

And to make things worse, the victims of that vile abuse are also taxpayers. Just think about it - the abused are seeing their own hard-earned tax being used to pay for church abuse.
Thats the final insult.

ToniTuddle

The Church sure as hell has enough money to pay for all of this.

PDN

Bduffman wrote: »

Thats all very well. But by saying the state is liable, it means the state has to pay. That means the taxpayer - you & me. I don't know about you but I'm certainly not responsible for any of this so I don't see why I should pay.

And to make things worse, the victims of that vile abuse are also taxpayers. Just think about it - the abused are seeing their own hard-earned tax being used to pay for church abuse.
Thats the final insult.

That's always the case, isn't it? The taxpayer ends up paying for the misdeeds of the State?

The State could have acted like most other civilised nations and developed a genuine educational system. Instead they contracted it out to those who weren't fit to run it. Therefore the taxpayers (who voted in the politicians) end up paying for the consequences of the poor decisions made by those same politicians. Democracy in action, even if it ain't pretty!

Raiser

I bet if the Roman Catholic Church checked every Sacristy, Seminary, Pulpit, Parish, Church, Cathedral, Chapel and Vatican Palatial Mansion they could almost certainly find at least one Individual who had the decency, honesty, integrity and forthrightness to stand on a Public platform and express how sorry the Church as a whole should be for physically, sexually, emotionally and brutally abusing our Children in the most obscene, evil, disgusting, cynical, predatory, unimaginable, sick, twisted, Godless, unforgivable way without it seeming as though the were simply trying to protect their own careers their own evil organisation, their own future, their own potential status, earnings and opportunities.

Perhaps then the Victims wouldn't feel like the crime is being extended, magnified, continued and worsened by the passing of each other successive day of their life sentence......

SirHenryGrattan

Who knew what in the Vatican?


Officially: The Archbishop must make a report every five years to Rome. This is known as the Ad Limina or Quinquennial Report. The latest report was delivered in October 2006, almost seven years after the previous report. This gap arose because of the ill-health of the late Pope John Paul II.

The purpose of the report is to inform Rome on the running of the Church in Ireland and, in the case of Dublin, how the Archdiocese is faring. Archbishop Martin has told the Commission that these reports were effectively in response to questionnaires that Rome presented to the Archbishop. He said he had looked at a number of these reports which went from the Dublin Archdiocese to Rome.

The first 'official' reference to child sexual abuse which he discovered was contained in the last report of Archbishop Connell, which was written in 1999.

Archbishop Martin told the Commission that, in a 100 page document, there were ten lines that dealt with the question of child sexual abuse in the Archdiocese. It was a very simple statement that the Archdiocese had gone through a difficult time, that there had been allegations of child sexual abuse and that priests had been convicted. He said that no statistics on child sexual abuse were furnished in the report.

Archbishop Martin said that the current policy, as far as he is concerned, is that at the conclusion of a preliminary investigation into an allegation of child sexual abuse, he sends a summary of the facts to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), asking how it should be dealt with canonically.

This was not the practice of previous Archbishops even though it appears to have been a mandatory requirement of canon law at least since 1917. This mandatory requirement was re-iterated in the 2002 document Sacramentorum Sanctitatis Tutela.

From the Commission Report it appears Archbishop McQuaid was keen to avoid Rome being informed of abuse by priests in the archdiocese.

Wonder what happened the sex offender files or were these files actually sent?

SirHenryGrattan

MrPudding wrote: »

Of course they should be prosecuted, but they should also be removed from their position. Can you imagine if this was any other industry, the leisure industry for example. If there was a comapny running kids birthday parties and it was discovered that the workers were abusing the kids and the managers were covering it up, do you think those workers and managers would still be working with kids? Do you think that company would astill be in business?

MrP

I totally agree. At least the COE sack errant vicars.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3459291/Armed-forces-vicar-banned-from-church-for-affair-with-married-woman.html

Bduffman

PDN wrote: »

That's always the case, isn't it? The taxpayer ends up paying for the misdeeds of the State?

The State could have acted like most other civilised nations and developed a genuine educational system. Instead they contracted it out to those who weren't fit to run it. Therefore the taxpayers (who voted in the politicians) end up paying for the consequences of the poor decisions made by those same politicians. Democracy in action, even if it ain't pretty!

Again all very well, but why does the state pay for its misdeeds by MONEY - our money.
The RCC has plenty to cover the cost in monetary terms.
The state should pay by cleaning up the mess it let happen by taking education away from the RCC.

Son Of A Vidic

The revelations, exposure and behaviour of the Catholic church in this country has had one very positive benefit for me. It has opened my eyes and made me question these people and the Faith they profess. Their church, it's rices and wealth represents nothing of the sacrifice Jesus made for humanity.

Raiser

medicman2009 wrote: »

The revelations, exposure and behaviour of the Catholic church in this country has had one very positive benefit for me. It has opened my eyes and made me question these people and the Faith they profess. Their church, it's rices and wealth represents nothing of the sacrifice Jesus made for humanity.

A real man of God would never spend his days test driving new Toyotas and raping Children........ The People we have had amongst us that us Irish as a Nation once looked up have shown themselves to be the lowest Scum in existence.

On a more positive note - I was really encouraged to read again about the Franciscan Monks (US originally) living in Moyross in Limerick (Hugely disadvantaged area) they held a Nativity Play recently complete with roman soldiers on Horseback - which in Limerick is not a problem for the local 12 year olds!!!!

From what I can see these Guys are giving up their lives entirely to do some good in a Community that needs some help - I saw them interviewed on the Late Late years ago and while I am not in the least bit religious they won over my respect on every level - Its a huge pity that religion in Ireland has not had anything to do with basic common decency for so long

GLUEY

Yes, sorry they were caught!

zod

so we're all agreed then.

The Church sacrificed the kids for money.

If they were really "sorry" then they would rip up the contract that protects their money.