Can any plumbers help me out?

tommy21

Money is tight and I'd prefer not to have to call someone unless I can't do it myself. This all happened when the water was switched back on in Cork after the floods but I've been so busy I'm only getting around to it now.

We have two toilets in the house. The cistern in the upstairs toilet will not fill and I can't figure out why. Two likely causes I think are either debris or an air-lock. When I look into tank I can see minor debris at very bottom but this may be normal in an uncovered attic tank for all I know. See pics below with explanations. Any ideas appreciated!

What the cistern looks like

Pipe that brings water to cistern. This has a little turnable screw akin to one you'd find on a boiler to increase water pressure. I've turned it back and forth to no avail.

Pipe bringing water into tank in attic

Ballcock in tank

Two pipes leading away from tank (of 3 in total that I can see).

3rd pipe leading away from tank

Any ideas folks or is it call a plumber time?

Pete67

Most likely an airlock. A few tricks that might help:

1) Connect a hose from the cold tap at the kitchen sink to any other cold top and open both taps, leave the kitchen sink one to last and open it slowly. This will force any air in the cold water supply from the attic tank back up into the roof tank due to the greater pressure of the incoming mains water supply. You will need a (clean) garden hose with clamp fittings to fit your taps.


2) If you have a mixer tap at the bath place hand over the outlet to seal it and open both hot and cold together. This may help move an airlock back up into the tank.

Also possible the toilet cistern valve is sticking, at the center of the valve is a small plunger. When you lift the float arm the plunger moves in to close off the water supply. Make sure it moves back out then the float is down. You can dismantle the valve by unscrewing the large green ring, but turn off the water supply first with the small screw operated valve where the water supply to the cistern comes out of the wall. The water is off when the slot is at right angles to the pipe, and on when it is parallel. Hope this helps!

tommy21

Pete67 wrote: »

Most likely an airlock. A few tricks that might help:

1) Connect a hose from the cold tap at the kitchen sink to any other cold top and open both taps, leave the kitchen sink one to last and open it slowly. This will force any air in the cold water supply from the attic tank back up into the roof tank due to the greater pressure of the incoming mains water supply. You will need a (clean) garden hose with clamp fittings to fit your taps.


2) If you have a mixer tap at the bath place hand over the outlet to seal it and open both hot and cold together. This may help move an airlock back up into the tank.

Also possible the toilet cistern valve is sticking, at the center of the valve is a small plunger. When you lift the float arm the plunger moves in to close off the water supply. Make sure it moves back out then the float is down. You can dismantle the valve by unscrewing the large green ring, but turn off the water supply first with the small screw operated valve where the water supply to the cistern comes out of the wall. The water is off when the slot is at right angles to the pipe, and on when it is parallel. Hope this helps!

Can't try one until tomorrow, I don't have clamps (not sure what they are!) but I'm sure any DIY store will have them. Have the hose alright is there any point in just getting two people on either end to hold the hose in place?

2) I do have a mixer tap (for both sink and bath). If what you mean by sealing the outlet is putting my finger over hole (water still comes out obviously) then I tried this to no avail.

I checked the third suggestion, found debris but still no water so figuring an airlock? Thanks for your suggestion

Davy

Can you identify the feed to the upstairs bathroom from the storage tank in the attic. Its one of those three. You could switch off the mains, disconnect it from the tank, then disconnect the bathroom feed that you identified, then join both together. You may need a 3/4 to 1/2" fitting going by the pictures.

In the bathroom, brake the connection below the valve going by the picture, so you can close the valve to stop water reaching the floor, and you wont be adjusting the fitting at the bottom of the cistern which can cause problems.

If you stay in the bathroom with a bucket, get someone downstairs to turn on the mains slowly, it should push thru any airlocks. Close the valve in the bathroom, and then turn off the mains again. Reconnect pipework to normal, when you reopen the valve in the bathroom, and the cistern doesn't fill, you have proved up to their, so you know the problem is probably debris in the orifice.

tommy21

Its working! Well 70% as fast anyway in terms of filling! Following all your suggestions, I first cleaned the gunk out as I mentioned. When this didn't work I got a can of compressed air and blasted it down the pipe. Drip rate increased but nothing else. I left valve a little open and went over to bath (mixer taps). I then covered the nozzle as best I could and next thing the cistern kicked into action. So while its not at 100% its doing ok and I can live with it. Any suggestions how to get it back to 100%? What happening now is that as the ballcock lifts upwards the water rate begins to slow down to drips when the cistern is about 75 % full. This would be grand except the tank is right above my room and now runs for about 10 mins compared to a much shorter time frame before to compensate for this gradual water loss so annoying in terms of noise (but much better then having no upstairs toilet!)

Thanks so much all for your help in getting me this far, great resource to have is boards.:p

items

Sorry about the delay, looks like your problems are solved. From looking at the pictures, not sure if its been mentioned, if you don't have a lid for the attic tank/tanks you should really get one. You've no idea what can find its way into an attic tank. I once pulled a dead mouse out of a pipe, died in the tank, sank to the bottom, sucked down the pipework and blocked it.

Tanks need lids, proper plastic ones designed to take condensation, no use covering them with wood or insulation, they'll fall apart. Plastic only.

Just noticed, that vent pipe, copper one above the tank, it shouldn't be submerged in water, try to lift it up to create an air gap. Another thing, the 1/2" plastic mains pipe connected to the ball cock at the attic tank, that should be rigid or supported in some way to stop water hammer or the possibility of the tank overflowing, if you've not got a decent overflow, your attic could flood.

Standard of plumbing in Ireland is terrible I see work like yours all the time, no offense and I hope you don't find it embarrassing. Even at your toilet, I can see 5 multiwicks connecting the toilet to the 4" waste pipe, their should only be one. The plumber used 5 either out of laziness or the pipe work didn't line up.

tommy21

items wrote: »

Sorry about the delay, looks like your problems are solved. From looking at the pictures, not sure if its been mentioned, if you don't have a lid for the attic tank/tanks you should really get one. You've no idea what can find its way into an attic tank. I once pulled a dead mouse out of a pipe, died in the tank, sank to the bottom, sucked down the pipework and blocked it.

Tanks need lids, proper plastic ones designed to take condensation, no use covering them with wood or insulation, they'll fall apart. Plastic only.

Just noticed, that vent pipe, copper one above the tank, it shouldn't be submerged in water, try to lift it up to create an air gap. Another thing, the 1/2" plastic mains pipe connected to the ball cock at the attic tank, that should be rigid or supported in some way to stop water hammer or the possibility of the tank overflowing, if you've not got a decent overflow, your attic could flood.

Standard of plumbing in Ireland is terrible I see work like yours all the time, no offense and I hope you don't find it embarrassing. Even at your toilet, I can see 5 multiwicks connecting the toilet to the 4" waste pipe, their should only be one. The plumber used 5 either out of laziness or the pipe work didn't line up.

None taken. We've been really unlucky with plumbers, the pics you see are the work of 3 different plumbers over years (2 Irish, 1 Polish lot), 2 of them were gangsters through and through, the polish lads tried their best but I've since heard that plumbing is a hell of a lot different in Poland.

So you can see my reluctance to get yet another plumber in lol, golden pages or recommended, we always seem to have bad luck! The lid is easily solved, the multiwicks are unsightly but are they dangerous? Biggest concern is as you say the attic flooding. That pipe coming in shuts off though when the ballcock rises high enough. Not sure what you mean by supporting it? Would more pics help to make it clearer?

Outkast_IRE

In terms of supporting the pipe goin to the ballcock in attic tank , you can get a metal galvanised steel plate that goes on the locking nut , and spreads the weight/pressure over a larger area ,any plumbing shop will know what you mean. that would defo help .

items

tommy21 wrote: »

None taken. We've been really unlucky with plumbers, the pics you see are the work of 3 different plumbers over years (2 Irish, 1 Polish lot), 2 of them were gangsters through and through, the polish lads tried their best but I've since heard that plumbing is a hell of a lot different in Poland.

So you can see my reluctance to get yet another plumber in lol, golden pages or recommended, we always seem to have bad luck! The lid is easily solved, the multiwicks are unsightly but are they dangerous? Biggest concern is as you say the attic flooding. That pipe coming in shuts off though when the ballcock rises high enough. Not sure what you mean by supporting it? Would more pics help to make it clearer?

Look out for some old fashioned plumbers, ones who've been around a while you'll find these are the ones who don't take short cuts.

Multiwicks are prone to leak, the black plastic seal goes hard over time and cracks, after a few years you might have some weeps. Biggest issue is blockages, you might have been lucky so far, each one of those multiwicks is a restriction, they are not designed to be linked up like that. The face is for the pan only, not for another mulitwick. The last multiwick is a real tight 90 bend, waste bends should be sweeping not straight 90 bends. It would be best to replace the whole lot with one single flexi multiwick, its like an accordian and will stretch out enough.

Supporting the mains pipe stops the ballcock from flexing up and down, when it flexs up, more water can come into the tank, next time your in the attic, push the pipe down a little and you'll notice more water comming into the tank. The float can create the same effect by lifting too much. When you install a new attic tank, normally supplied with the tank is a small metal plate with a hole, its designed to be connected along with the ballcock, its helps make the ballcock stay fixed, more rigid.

You can leave well enough alone but just make sure the 3/4" overflow pipe is connected well and making its way outside, coming out at fascia and soffit, sometimes if an overflow is not supported or fixed, over time it can work its way back inside the attic, people walking on it, hitting it etc. Once its outside if your tank does happen to overflow its safe enough.

Don't forget to take that copper pipe out of the water, when you run a hot tap, you could be siphoning back cold tank water into the hot water.

Their might be some give in the vent pipe, try pulling it up a little if not pull on the bend away from the tank to rise it enough, failing that cut it enough to keep it out of the water but not too short, the vent pipe has to aim directly into the tank, straight down preferably.

Anything else let me know.

Forgot to mention, next time you are having plumbing works done, have a valve fitted just before the ballcock, if you are planning on living in the house for a long time, you'll find its a God send. The regs now state all ballcock fillers must have dedicated isolation (valved). For emergency and ease of maintenance.