Da budget!

JohnBoy

Doesnt seem to have been a bad one for farmers as such.

but I suppose it'll be a few days before the various departments make their own mini announcements.

There seems to be some changes relating to VAT and farm machinery that I'm just not understanding.

http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2010/Documents/Financial%20Resolutions.pdf


What say you?

irish_bob

JohnBoy wrote: »

Doesnt seem to have been a bad one for farmers as such.

but I suppose it'll be a few days before the various departments make their own mini announcements.

There seems to be some changes relating to VAT and farm machinery that I'm just not understanding.

http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2010/Documents/Financial%20Resolutions.pdf


What say you?

padraig walshe when interviewed this evening on tv , pointed to the fact that farmers have seen incomes drop by 30% this year having seen them drop considerabley last year aswell , bryan dobson didnt blink an eyelid yet the issue of a measley 10 - 20% pay cut across the public sector between the pension levy earlier in the year and todays cuts garner truck loads of collumn inches and endless hours of tv and radio debate , it seems some peoples pain is more deserving of acknowledgement than others , the reality is that while today wasa good budget in dealing with public sector pay , as a group they are grossly overindulged and overpaid relative to the private sector and neighbouring european countries

marizpan

irish_bob wrote: »

padraig walshe when interviewed this evening on tv , pointed to the fact that farmers have seen incomes drop by 30% this year having seen them drop considerabley last year aswell , bryan dobson didnt blink an eyelid yet the issue of a measley 10 - 20% pay cut across the public sector between the pension levy earlier in the year and todays cuts garner truck loads of collumn inches and endless hours of tv and radio debate , it seems some peoples pain is more deserving of acknowledgement than others , the reality is that while today wasa good budget in dealing with public sector pay , as a group they are grossly overindulged and overpaid relative to the private sector and neighbouring european countries

+1;)

mossfort

i have to agree as well.
3 weeks ago i got a phone call that a department of agriculture inspector was calling to see my cattle. he arrived two days later at a set time and asked to see my blue cards and herd register. he had a list with all my cattle tag numbers which he put tick beside for each blue card.
then he said he wanted to see the cattle and went into the shed and just glanced into one of the pens,he seemed more interested in the shed, he said he built one like it himself.
he then got in his jeep and left and rang me 10 minutes later claiming that i had not shown him cards for 2 animals despite having ticed off all the cards with the checklist. i set him straight and that was it.
im just wondering what purpose this inspection served ,looks like just keeping guys in jobs with travel allowances and phone allowances just trying to make work where there is none.

Ashill5

At the rate we are going there won't be a small farmer left in Ireland. Between the Weather, Bad Prices and this Bloody Goverment that has ran this Great Little country to the ground. With all the money they squandered, now they are back to screw the common man + woman AGAIN. With all their talk about the great increases we got over the last numbers of years in (Child Benifit, The Dole etc.).They never would think of reforming their pensions and the Lavish Expenses Gravy Train. Now they have pushed the retirement age up to 66 .Yet they swan around with pensions that us poor Misfortunes could only dream about. Why can't they wait till they are retired fully. Under the farming retirement one couldn't hardly sweep a yard and they would be on your back. Equality my ARSE! And it great to see that the opposition are keeping Quite about it.:rolleyes:

MrPint

Hello all,
The dep of Agriculture are a bunch of self serveing incompetents. They along with schemes such as reps are designed to get rid of the small-medium farmer. They look to control the farmer by taking away options to him/her by imposing stupid rules and regulations. Most of these "inspectors" are failed farmers who cannot make a living from the land (a job that is getting harder and harder) and we as a group need to ask oursleves why that is. Farming used to be an enjoyable occupation and with hard work you got by. Now alot of farmers are worried sick about these stupid inspections that are only designed to return monies earned by the farmer to incompetent government agencies (a job creation exercise).
As farmer we need to produce a good product and it will sell. It is in our interest to produce quality produce, get away from mass buyers such as teesco , sell locally and without middle men. The puplic masses have been brained washed to think food should and can only be got in large super markets. look at other european countries town markets thrive and here if ya have a dirty carrot on display it is nearly considered as bad as nuclear waste by health inspectors.
we need and agriculture revolution and it would be good if vested interets kepty away..IFA included

All the best

Mr Pint

ps. Just as an example of one of these feckless dimwit inspectors on our farm. In a dairy house used to make dairy products (small scale) we had fitted a fan to extract mosture/heat etc high up close to the ceiling. There was a small window 1.5 x1.5 ft loacted on the other side of the room fairly low down about 2.5 feet from the floor. When the Lord inspector came he said the fan should be moved to this window 2.5 feet from the floor and the other outlet closed. I tried to explain to his gentleman that heat rises and therefor the best extraction point would be higher up ie in its current location. He could not accept this as obviously in inspector college physics works differently. he threatened to close down the facilty as a "health risk" was presented by this (mould) if the fan was not moved.

JohnBoy

Okay, everyone hates the department, I'm not sure what that has to do with yesterdays budget, but vent away.

This is the departments own press release giving some more details. http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/press/pressreleases/2009/december/title,37260,en.html

MrPint

venting does ya good, reduces stress and all that, I know it was thread drift so apologies.

Re hating the department. what I hate is the incompetence, the holyer than thou attitude and the fact that it has a vested interest as an overbloated public sector keeping as many jobs as possible even when they are not required and making me as a tax payer pay from them rather than putting my hard earned money to giving the republic people a decent education and health system.
to keep it on topic. the budget has begun a process that is no where near finished. The cuts are not enough and it does not address the price of living in this country. To hear the unions bleat on about fairness and they are taking all the pain, how many off them have emigrated already because of loss of job? My village has seen its average age increase dramtically in the last 1.5 years. The budget should have addressed the waste in the public sector( as was promised by the unions last budget) and in may other areas .....never happed. Also the banks need to let be go to the wall saves on bailout money.
The budget promises more "schemes", jasus when will they learn let farming be competitive, Stop throwing your uninformed thinkering into farmers lives. Cut the red tape, the inspections, The 54,000,000 billion forms and applications if ya want to move 1 spud from 1 field to another.
Theses schemes do nothing for farmers. A farmer will look after his land and maintain it as through this he/she will produce the best produce.

maybe more ranting sorry,

all the best

MrPint......at least i got cheaper..lol

Sam Kade

MrPint wrote: »

Hello all,
The dep of Agriculture are a bunch of self serveing incompetents. They along with schemes such as reps are designed to get rid of the small-medium farmer. They look to control the farmer by taking away options to him/her by imposing stupid rules and regulations. Most of these "inspectors" are failed farmers who cannot make a living from the land (a job that is getting harder and harder) and we as a group need to ask oursleves why that is. Farming used to be an enjoyable occupation and with hard work you got by. Now alot of farmers are worried sick about these stupid inspections that are only designed to return monies earned by the farmer to incompetent government agencies (a job creation exercise).
As farmer we need to produce a good product and it will sell. It is in our interest to produce quality produce, get away from mass buyers such as teesco , sell locally and without middle men. The puplic masses have been brained washed to think food should and can only be got in large super markets. look at other european countries town markets thrive and here if ya have a dirty carrot on display it is nearly considered as bad as nuclear waste by health inspectors.
we need and agriculture revolution and it would be good if vested interets kepty away..IFA included

I was talking to a farmer recently who had an inspection. The inspector was also a farmer. The inspector checked everything including boundary fences before he got time to complete the inspection he got a phone call from one of his neighbours telling him that his cattle were after breaking out onto a public road so he left in a hurry and the farmer didn't see or hear from him since. Just goes to show how stupid these inspections are your man travelling around the country checking farmer’s boundary fences and his own boundary fences are not stock proof.

Ms. Ka

I am just wondering, based on the above posts, if farmers would prefer no inspections but no SFP & DAS payments?

what would you suggest to regulate farming in terms of animal welfare, quality of produce & pollution control?

Rujib1

Ms. Ka wrote: »

I am just wondering, based on the above posts, if farmers would prefer no inspections but no SFP & DAS payments?

Absolutely, provided we got a proper market value for our produce. Farmer is not in fact subsidised by these payments. Consumer is:eek: Plus of course their very existence / necessity, keeps a truck load of box tickers employed in dept.

yessam

Ms. Ka wrote: »

I am just wondering, based on the above posts, if farmers would prefer no inspections but no SFP & DAS payments?

Definitely - this is the way farmers should strive for. No subsidies, just good fair prices for the quality we produce. I see where sheep farmers are looking for some form of subsidy to be paid to them. They should be looking for better prices for what they produce rather than rearing animals just for the subsidy. The consumer will inspect the product produced and the farmer should be paid according to quality. Quality should be rewarded. Dep of Agriculture inspections should only be for Health and Safety and Animal Welfare

MrPint

Hello all,
As said above. Subsidies is what has ruined farming and made it uncompetitive. With regards to produce, if ya produce a good product it will sell simple as. The likes of the tesco and other large super markets have bullied farmer into accepting lower prices because of their bargaining power. Small shops and butchers selling locally etc are being priced out, closed down due large amounts of unwarrented red tape and regulations that are rediculous.
Ms .Ka, is it not in the farmers interest to have awell maintained farm? Animals that are well fed and looked after, I think so. Having wasted enough enough time running after animals after they have escaped fences it pays me to keep my fences in shape. keeping poorly fed animals will a)try to break out more b) produce an inferior quality product. The industry should be selfregulating. Pollution on land will decrease the yield of grass/growth of veg etc. I am a farmer and like my animals I will not see them suffer. There is a place for regulation but not in the face up front. If farming/ animal wellfare/ pollution/ is brought in to question I will report it and the white coats can come out and do their job. But we all know in this country that regulators can be bought.

maybe the mods can put this stuff into an new thread as its no more creep as a total slide..:D

all the best

MrPint

irish_bob

Ms. Ka wrote: »

I am just wondering, based on the above posts, if farmers would prefer no inspections but no SFP & DAS payments?

what would you suggest to regulate farming in terms of animal welfare, quality of produce & pollution control?

let me put it this way , were factory prices and milk aswell as grain prices to rise enough so as thier would be no need for any subsidies , i believe most farmers would be happier , one group would most certainly not be better off though , civil servants at the dept of agriculture who,s job depends on the cheque in the post culture

mikemac

I remember filling up forms with my Dad with sheep stock numbers. Took aaaaaaages, every line to be completed, checked and a booklet of instructions to be followed.

And once that got posted some box ticker in the Department will have to type all this onto a database.
Why, I wondered myself do the Department not have something like Revenue online and I can enter this myself? Seems more efficient. After 6pm of course, only dialup broadband in these parts

Or maybe I could email a spreadsheet to the Department so the civil servant can copy and paste it onto theirs?
No my son, I was told. The Department want their forms completed so you can only follow the rules.

I think maybe some senior management from Revenue should be landed into the Dept of Agriculture and shake it up. It's almost like the Dept are creating work for themselves to keep busy!

Ms. Ka

ok I get what you mean by wanting a fair pricefor your produce (an fairly so) but Ireland isnt a closed economy, how would you be competitive on price from other countries both inside of the EU and outside?

MrPint

Hello all,
The way we can be competitive is if we reduce the stupid costs labour on the producer by regulations that are mindless.
example most restaraunts will only buy clean an pre prepared veg. Mostly because according to the health inspectors dirty veg are not allowed into a kitchen. never mind the past hundreds of years were food was prepaired in the kitchen cant have that these days. This simple example (take carrot) shows that to wash the carrot the farmer needs to 1) invest in machinery to wash the carrot 2) employ someone to do it 3) do it yourself, all these things cost time and or money and hence the price of the item goes up.

Another thing is why the hell cant i sell meat if i butcher it? i can save myself 2-3 middle men and so can the consumer if he/she buys if from me directly and so reducing the cost of the item. I'll tell ya why, i cant afford to build the hi-tech butchering labouritory that the regulations say i need ( and i cant affford to build) because I am a dirty person and will try to kill people with being unclean etc. I have eaten my own (butchered by myself) meat since i learnt to butcher from my father and im not dead or constantly sick. The gov make me feel like a criminal if a neighbour wants to buy a few pounds of meat of me, why?


inspections: why do we have to pay for them. if the gov want to inspect let it be on their cost (sad thing iis tax payer will end up footing the bill)

Ms. Ka its about protecting industries and the few big fish amongst us because god forbid if the wee man a stick to wield.

all the best

MrPint

mossfort

i came across an old mart sale docket i had from 1988.
4 x 570kg bullocks 740 pounds each old money
2x 475kg bullocks 652 pounds each.
and they were probaly plain animals, you would be doing well to get the equivalent today in euros 21 years later.
what other industry has not had an increase in prices for so long with the cost of inputs rising all the time .
feed, fuel, fertilizer and all other running cost have more than doubled in price.
all the red tape farmers have to go through and then the meat factories deliberately keeping beef prices down and stopping the exports to the uk.
in other countries such as france and italy the quality of cattle produced for the home market command a premium price.
we should be getting the same here because we produce animals just as good but maybe ms ka would prefer to purchase brazilian beef with no traceability which is a poorer quality product.

mikemac

mossfort wrote: »

maybe ms ka would prefer to purchase brazilian beef with no traceability and and which is a poorer quality product.

And pay standard prices for said Brazilian beef as it's packaged and passed off as Irish beef.

When I was in college the local shop had a blackboard by the deli counter. You see the stock number, the county where the stock came from, the factory and other information too.

Brazilian beef is cheaper for a reason. And I know what I'll be buying. Subsidies lower the price for consumers. Get rid of subsidies and pay farmers the real price of producing quality produce!

eorna

I agree 100%, subsidies is just a tool to keep farmers selling under the market price. Example: For a lamb in the factory we get paid 3.50 to 4.00 euro/kilo, seen loin chops in supervalue and different butchers at 18 euro/kg and over.. where is the fairness there? There is a lot of people making a lot of money out of our produce. So i'd say get rid of subsidies and stop paying me 75 euro for lamb when it retails at over 200/250 euro in shops and butchers. Pay me accordingly....oh I forget they will b few more people in dole queues..the ones living off my hard work!! (department, middle men, factories, retailers,supermarkets, more department... i could go on for a few pages)
Who is subsidising who??

irish_bob

mikemac wrote: »

I remember filling up forms with my Dad with sheep stock numbers. Took aaaaaaages, every line to be completed, checked and a booklet of instructions to be followed.

And once that got posted some box ticker in the Department will have to type all this onto a database.
Why, I wondered myself do the Department not have something like Revenue online and I can enter this myself? Seems more efficient. After 6pm of course, only dialup broadband in these parts

Or maybe I could email a spreadsheet to the Department so the civil servant can copy and paste it onto theirs?
No my son, I was told. The Department want their forms completed so you can only follow the rules.

I think maybe some senior management from Revenue should be landed into the Dept of Agriculture and shake it up. It's almost like the Dept are creating work for themselves to keep busy!

unlike in the private sector , maximising employment is the priotity in the public sector , reducing staff means possibley goverments loosing a housefull of votes , its all politics

Pharaoh1

The arguments over the impact of subsidies on prices, multiples and processors taking more than their fair share.... have been well rehearsed but I think there is a more fundamental issue at the root of the farm income collapse.
Farmers are really the only group in society who are effectively prepared to work for nothing. As long as farmers are prepared to work (ie produce commodities) for nothing the multiples/processors will be happy to pay them prices that mean that they continue to work for nothing
(although there is an issue with world market prices that cannot be completely ignored).

I was one of those who believed that when the SFP was introduced that farmers would bank this money and engage in whatever farming enterprise would turn a profit and if this was not possible they would do the minimum necessary to secure the payment. I thought that there would be a huge drop in production as unprofitable enterprises were dropped and prices would rise.
I was thinking logically and I was completely wrong.

I didn't take account of the following attitudes:

- "I've been doing this all my life and I can't change now" (even if I'm just throwing away money) It's the "farming is in the blood" disease (which I completely understand being a sufferer myself)

- "Sure the wife/husband is working and they can pay the bills" (as I continue to work for nothing)

- "I actually am making money" (because I'm embarassed the neighbours will think I'm a bad farmer - even though they are all losing money too)

- Eternal optimism

- The CAP health check - this is now becoming a major issue and many I have spoken to are keeping up or increasing their stock numbers as they are afraid that the new payments will be linked to production as the previous ones were. We also see farmers continuing to pay high conacre and lease prices for poor land for fear that they might lose out.

If all (or even a large proportion) of unprofitable farmers drastically reduced production it would have a huge shock on the wider economy costing tens of thousands of jobs and decimating the value of our exports.

It might shock the govt into some serious action but i feel it is unlikely to happen.

MrPint

Hello All,
agree with what most of Pharoh1 said. ecept if we stopped these subsides people farm if it is viable and stop if it is not, just like any other business and if they want to hobby farm so be it.
Now what we have to ask is who champions all these schemes? promotes them declares a massive success when more monies have been secured. THE IFA whom 10000s of thousand of farmers have subscribed too. Do they really have the best interests of the farmer at heart or are just instuments of big industry and the gov. Yeah they blew a trumpent for the import of beef and lamb etc...but really did it solve anything? NO, in my opinion. I think we need to get more of a french attitude ( i know ithey're not the most popular at the moment the cheats) towards of this. Anyone remember what happened when the gov or big industry ( mc donalds) tried to screw over the farmer, They blocked roads, hung dead calves in phone boxes. Now im not on for holding anyone to ransome but if ya shout long and hard and you are still not heard action needs to happen. Tell big supermarkets to feck off with their pushing down of prices and block their import lorries. see how quick they react. how much profit did tesco make this year in a ressesion? and off who's back.
I think we as a people need to get real.
Best thing i ever done was never to apply for any reps and other schemes etc. keeps the nosy feckers off my land and i get one with farming. I sell my produce from the farm and have built up a good realtionship with my customers. I dont rip them off like some of the farmer markets in the towns and cities of ireland and people come back for more and more.
Just a note on the farmers markets which I attended as a seller. These gob****es who organise them (mostly stalls where bought by people with grant money and have nothing to do with farming) charge the seller a set fee regarlds of how much the person sells, this is nuts. They should get a precentage of profit and people might attend them a bit more. And having a market once a month, where do they get these ideas, minimum is once a week so people can buy there veg etc fresh.

all the best

MrPint